“Born amidst salt and smoke” Prophecy has been fulfilled.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I have to point at Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

Ser Patrek has a star as sigil and was obviously bleeding when Wun Wun killed him = bleeding star

One of the NW (can't remember the name) was crying = salt

And there was smoke too

Maybe the whole Jon getting stabbed part, is actually him being reborn as AA

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have to point at Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

Ser Patrek has a star as sigil and was obviously bleeding when Wun Wun killed him = bleeding star

One of the NW (can't remember the name) was crying = salt

And there was smoke too

Maybe the whole Jon getting stabbed part, is actually him being reborn as AA

Yeah I have heard ppl say that. It makes sense to me. ugh I hate that Aemon was soooo sure it was Dany because he was generally right about everything during his life, why would he be wrong about that?

But for some reason I think he was wrong, and it is Jon and not Dany.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Yeah I have heard ppl say that. It makes sense to me. ugh I hate that Aemon was soooo sure it was Dany because he was generally right about everything during his life, why would he be wrong about that?

But for some reason I think he was wrong, and it is Jon and not Dany.

I believe Aemon thought Dany was TPTWP and i think AA != TPTWP

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I believe Aemon thought Dany was TPTWP and i think AA != TPTWP

So you think TPTWP and AA are gonna be the same person? I think one will Dany and one will be Jon if I had to guess :)

[Inquisitor Glokta]

So you think TPTWP and AA are gonna be the same person? I think one will Dany and one will be Jon if I had to guess :)

!= means not equal, so i'm saying AA is not the same person as TPTWP

[Suzanna Stormborn]

!= means not equal, so i'm saying AA is not the same person as TPTWP

Right ok, that's what I think :cheers:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Not to mention that to boil water for the equipments you need fire. Here is the smoke.

I have to point at Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

Ser Patrek has a star as sigil and was obviously bleeding when Wun Wun killed him = bleeding star

One of the NW (can't remember the name) was crying = salt

And there was smoke too

Maybe the whole Jon getting stabbed part, is actually him being reborn as AA

:agree: The way Jon was born was another funny thing. I intended this to be funny.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

!= means not equal, so i'm saying AA is not the same person as TPTWP

Jon is TPTWP and Dany is AA, So I know the prophecy for AA, what was the Prophecy for TPTWP?

I mean I know Dany saw the vision in the HOTU but was there another particular prophecy?

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Jon is TPTWP and Dany is AA, So I know the prophecy for AA, what was the Prophecy for TPTWP?

I mean I know Dany saw the vision in the HOTU but was there another particular prophecy?

There seems to be a prophecy, but we haven't seen it sofar. I believe it was the reason that little bookworm Rhaegar went out into the yard to train and become a great warrior, because he thought he was supposed to.

It seems to me that TPTWP-prophecy is specifically related to Targaryens, while AAR hasn't any relation to Targaryens or anything to old Valyrian because it predates both by quite a few millenia

edit: Aemon (who is a Targaryen) also mentions TPTWP

[Suzanna Stormborn]

There seems to be a prophecy, but we haven't seen it sofar. I believe it was the reason that little bookworm Rhaegar went out into the yard to train and become a great warrior, because he thought he was supposed to.

It seems to me that TPTWP-prophecy is specifically related to Targaryens, while AAR hasn't any relation to Targaryens or anything to old Valyrian because it predates both by quite a few millenia

edit: Aemon (who is a Targaryen) also mentions TPTWP

Thanks I wasn't sure if I was missing something. I think this history book that's about to come out will answer a lot of these questions

[Frey family reunion]

I think this argument is a tad premature, I think we need to wait and see if Jon is "reborn" and how this "rebirth" occurrs.

[butterbumps!]

I don’t believe it but since I have heard that Dany is AA because she was born in Dragonstone… So, Jon has already fulfilled the AA prophesy.

When the red star bleeds-> Arthur The Sword of the Morning dying outside of ToJ of exsanguination or bleeding

be born again amidst smoke -> Smoke from the boiled water that was used for sterilize their equipment during the labor

and salt.-> Lyanna's tears

So, what do you think?

I still neither think that Jon is nor should be Azor Ahai reborn.

Azor Ahai sounds like a maniac. By all accounts- the theology of his religion, the eschatology surrounding him (the dead will rise and there will be an endless summer; this is somehow better than the Others/ winter.....how?), and the virulence of those who worship him tell us we ought to really re-assess whether we think Azor Ahai is even a good guy. He sounds like a perfect coin flip of the supposed "Great Other," a complete imbalance in the opposite direction.

I firmly disbelieve that Azor Ahai is the hero Westeros needs. I don't believe that Azor Ahai originally had anything to do with the Long Night; nothing in the text actually connects him with the Last Hero, who did, actually battle the Others according to several sources. Azor Ahai overcame a "great darkness," but I still believe this "darkness" was political in nature; I've always suspected that he's the "founder" of Valyria via the forging of dragons.

At any rate, Azor Ahai is always portrayed as being an agent of fire, blood sacrifice and force. I don't see Jon-- the symbol of balance, as well as the son of ice and fire-- as being Azor Ahai; it makes no sense to me. Dany, dragon wielding conqueror she is, makes more sense as AAR. I think the "red herring" here is that being Azor Ahai is not a good thing, and not the path to restoring balance.

And I think Jon already fulfilled the PtwP requirements: "Promise me, Ned;" "There will be one more"

[Frey family reunion]

I still neither think that Jon is nor should be Azor Ahai reborn.

Azor Ahai sounds like a maniac. By all accounts- the theology of his religion, the eschatology surrounding him (the dead will rise and there will be an endless summer; this is somehow better than the Others/ winter.....how?), and the virulence of those who worship him tell us we ought to really re-assess whether we think Azor Ahai is even a good guy. He sounds like a perfect coin flip of the supposed "Great Other," a complete imbalance in the opposite direction.

I firmly disbelieve that Azor Ahai is the hero Westeros needs. I don't believe that Azor Ahai originally had anything to do with the Long Night; nothing in the text actually connects him with the Last Hero, who did, actually battle the Others according to several sources. Azor Ahai overcame a "great darkness," but I still believe this "darkness" was political in nature; I've always suspected that he's the "founder" of Valyria via the forging of dragons.

At any rate, Azor Ahai is always portrayed as being an agent of fire, blood sacrifice and force. I don't see Jon-- the symbol of balance, as well as the son of ice and fire-- as being Azor Ahai; it makes no sense to me. Dany, dragon wielding conqueror she is, makes more sense as AAR. I think the "red herring" here is that being Azor Ahai is not a good thing, and not the path to restoring balance.

And I think Jon already fulfilled the PtwP requirements: "Promise me, Ned;" "There will be one more"

I also beleive that the story of Azor Ahai is the story of the creation of the Valyrian dragon riders. I think the forging of lightbringer is a corrupted form of the trial and error it took to forge the bond between rider and dragon. I also think that Jon is the latest incarnation of lightbringer and may end up with a second (or third) life as one of Dany's dragons. Now whether this allies him with or pits him against Dany remains to be seen.

[butterbumps!]

I also beleive that the story of Azor Ahai is the story of the creation of the Valyrian dragon riders. I think the forging of lightbringer is a corrupted form of the trial and error it took to forge the bond between rider and dragon. I also think that Jon is the latest incarnation of lightbringer and may end up with a second (or third) life as one of Dany's dragons. Now whether this allies him with or pits him against Dany remains to be seen.

Oh, I don't think Jon = Lightbringer; it's mixing up the prophecies, and I don't think he's related to Azor Ahai. That is, I don't think there should be any association between Jon and AA according to what we know of the prophesy, so Lightbringer, as part of the AA myth, doesn't seem to make sense to me as pertinent to Jon. I see how it makes sense in terms of "forging" two other child before him and other symbolism, but it seems like it might be mixing metaphors to me to take it too literally in naming Jon "lightbringer." I do, however, think Dawn is the dragonsteel sword (not "Lightbringer" though) referred to in the Castle Black annals and Old Nan's tales.

[Dr. Pepper]

The difference is that steam and smoke are never used in place of one another, whereas comets and meteors are commonly referred to as "stars". Literalism might not be a requirement, but I think some connection between the two things in the mind of the audience (both in uiniverse and out) is, and most people's minds divorce steam from smoke quite completely

Smoke is used in place of steam in the books.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I still neither think that Jon is nor should be Azor Ahai reborn.

Azor Ahai sounds like a maniac. By all accounts- the theology of his religion, the eschatology surrounding him (the dead will rise and there will be an endless summer; this is somehow better than the Others/ winter.....how?), and the virulence of those who worship him tell us we ought to really re-assess whether we think Azor Ahai is even a good guy. He sounds like a perfect coin flip of the supposed "Great Other," a complete imbalance in the opposite direction.

I firmly disbelieve that Azor Ahai is the hero Westeros needs. I don't believe that Azor Ahai originally had anything to do with the Long Night; nothing in the text actually connects him with the Last Hero, who did, actually battle the Others according to several sources. Azor Ahai overcame a "great darkness," but I still believe this "darkness" was political in nature; I've always suspected that he's the "founder" of Valyria via the forging of dragons.

At any rate, Azor Ahai is always portrayed as being an agent of fire, blood sacrifice and force. I don't see Jon-- the symbol of balance, as well as the son of ice and fire-- as being Azor Ahai; it makes no sense to me. Dany, dragon wielding conqueror she is, makes more sense as AAR. I think the "red herring" here is that being Azor Ahai is not a good thing, and not the path to restoring balance.

And I think Jon already fulfilled the PtwP requirements: "Promise me, Ned;" "There will be one more"

If you scroll up, A lot of us were saying exactly that earlier, That Dany is AA and Jon is TPTWP.

[butterbumps!]

If you scroll up, A lot of us were saying exactly that earlier, That Dany is AA and Jon is TPTWP.

I expanded on why I believe this, thanks though.

[wighty]

Smoke is used in place of steam in the books.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

But is it? This is a quote from the Prologue of Game...

"Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow"

[lady m]

I expanded on why I believe this, thanks though.

bb, what do you make of GRRM using AAR & TPTWP in an interchanging manner. I've thought exactly what you do for some time, Jon, TPTWP; Dany, AAR & AAR being a not good thing in the end. But it was pointed out to me that they're likely one and the same and that Martin uses the phrases flip-flopping between one another.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82853-aa-vs-tptwp-vs-the-last-hero/

[Dr. Pepper]

But is it? This is a quote from the Prologue of Game...

"Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow"

Um, yeah, it is. I provided a quote where smoke is used in place of steam. I didn't say that smoke is always used in place of steam.

Here's another.

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

The point is that several posters are saying that no one can ever mistake steam for smoke but it's used interchangeably in at least two places in the books. There are some who are getting butthurt over the literal definition of smoke and steam but then totally ignoring the fact that a comet is not a star. I cannot recall offhand, but I'm assuming the comet is called a bleeding star at least once or twice in the books, but it's most referred to as a comet, which isn't a bloody star.