[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[LadyMary]

I watched it and knew it would cause outrage, but I had no problem with it at all. I'm a Catelyn fan, I understand her hatred and treatment of Jon but don't condone it obviously. This scene just seemed to fill in one page of their long history together. Catelyn still hated Jon after this, but had a moment of weakness. We see her regretting what she said to Jon later in GoT, so I don't think it's unreasonable or out of character for her to have had previous moments of weakness with Jon.

Some people think the scene was a kind of character assassination, but I thought it was the opposite. I loved the scene. There I said it - LOVED it.

I always thought Cat's unrelenting anger and resentment at a boy who had no control over his fate was very off-putting. I don't think it shows "weakness" to admit her fault or feel regret and guilt for the way she treated him, even if her guilt was kind of extreme because she blames all of her family's troubles on reneging on a promise she made to the Seven (really it was Jon Arryn's death that set all the subsequent events in motion).

I think the whole scene made Cat more relatable and real. Good people have flaws and blind spots that can cause setbacks in their lives. Admitting them is the first step to moving beyond them. In this case, she can't make it up to Jon but maybe there will be some payoff for her confession down the road.

[Buckwheat]

I think I learned to differentiate between Cat in the books and Cat in the show. I was angry with her presentation most of the season 2, but I really appreciated that scene (minus the fact that Talisa was there, I still cannot stand that one), mostly due to Michelle Fairley being such a great actress. I love how she manages to act Cat's sadness.

[Northbound]

I have a question, about what Cat said in the episode. Did she say, if the gods let Jon live; that she "would" ask Ned to give Jon the Stark name or that she "did" ask him?

Of course the reason I ask, leads more in to who Jon potentially is. Now, most of us who have read the books; have brought up the fact, there is a lot of back story being left out of the show. It seems at this point, we are going to get very little of it....if at all.

Now, back to last nights episode. If Cat said that, she "did" ask Ned to give Jon a Stark name and he refused, that could leds us to one conclusion. That Ned, didn't want to draw attention to Jon, assuming R+L=J is true. Could this be a way that the show creators are trying to bridge the back story?

[Ser Greguh]

I have a question, about what Cat said in the episode. Did she say, if the gods let Jon live; that she "would" ask Ned to give Jon the Stark name or that she "did" ask him?

She said she "would", but didn't follow through.

[Northbound]

Ok, thank you. I wasn't sure. Was going to watch it again tonight, with Sub Caps on...now I wont have too.

[Where Boars Glow]

I didn't like the change mainly because I feel like it didn't hold continuity with the TV cat we have seen in the first season. It felt like they were going out of there way to make her more sympathetic. Then again they did the same thing with Cersi and I thought that was a very positive addition. I think TV Cersi comes off as more reasonable and caring and it adds to the character. Maybe trying to make Cat more likable will help my emotional investment in the character later in the show.

I actually thought the change with Jamie and Briennes swordfight will have more story ramifications. I think the writers wanted to play up the relationship more and make Brienne seem more of a bad ass swordswoman then she was. She is very good. Jamie even starving and fettered is one of the top 3 swordsmen in the realm. She herself talks about even with those disadvantages it was all she could do to hold her own. I think by making Jamie seem a midling swordsman it will really take away from how profound a loss he suffers and how much it changes the nature of who he is.

I guess time will tell on both these changes how things shake out....although they do concern me.

[David Selig]

I think I learned to differentiate between Cat in the books and Cat in the show. I was angry with her presentation most of the season 2, but I really appreciated that scene (minus the fact that Talisa was there, I still cannot stand that one), mostly due to Michelle Fairley being such a great actress. I love how she manages to act Cat's sadness.

This is probably the most frustrating part for me. Seeing how Michelle is able to really sell even the mediocre material she's usually given, I can't help but think what awesome scenes we'd have had if for example they've shown the sept scene before Renly's death, or the dialogue with Brienne when she got the news about Bran and Rickon's death.

[Buckwheat]

This is probably the most frustrating part for me. Seeing how Michelle is able to really sell even the mediocre material she's usually given, I can't help but think what awesome scenes we'd have had if for example they've shown the sept scene before Renly's death, or the dialogue with Brienne when she got the news about Bran and Rickon's death.

She would. The two scenes that touched me most in the show were the one in season 2 where the Silent Sisters bring her Eddard's bones and the one in the last episode where she learned about the deaths of Brandon and Rickon. This proves how excellent she is, that she can make such an impression to the viewers.

:/ We have to take what we get, really.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I didn't like the change mainly because I feel like it didn't hold continuity with the TV cat we have seen in the first season. It felt like they were going out of there way to make her more sympathetic.

GRRM himself was surprised at the negative reaction to book Cat. He intended her to be a positive maternal character, so to the extent they added something that made her more sympathetic, that would seem fairly consistent with his view of her. Come to think of it, that may have been why the "it should have been you" comment was omitted --GRRM may have thought it led to interpretations of her character that were inconsistent with his intent.

Then again they did the same thing with Cersi and I thought that was a very positive addition. I think TV Cersi comes off as more reasonable and caring and it adds to the character. Maybe trying to make Cat more likable will help my emotional investment in the character later in the show.

Yeah, I personally hated book Cersei, and I liked hating here. But the Cersei the show has drawn is more credible, and I do think it makes for better TV. I know some folks are opposed to such changes, but to me, as long as the changes aren't enough to affect their actions, but go more towards interpreting the exact shade of gray in which the character is painted, I'm fine with that. Cersei's still a nasty bitch, but I can see better why she thinks she is justified in what she is doing.

Btw, I think they've also done a very good job of showing how she's losing/lost control of Joffrey. Very good acting on both ends.

Of course, if they make Gregor all cute and cuddly, I'll be throwing my remote through the screen.

[dreamcatcher]

When I saw this scene I figured that in the grand scope of things, it'll probably matter. I always believed that Catelyn/Jon reunion (with Cat giving him the kiss of life, or at least them just making up) would be incredibly poetic.

[Where Boars Glow]

GRRM himself was surprised at the negative reaction to book Cat. He intended her to be a positive maternal character, so to the extent they added something that made her more sympathetic, that would seem fairly consistent with his view of her. Come to think of it, that may have been why the "it should have been you" comment was omitted --GRRM may have thought it led to interpretations of her character that were inconsistent with his intent.

Yeah, I personally hated book Cersei, and I liked hating here. But the Cersei the show has drawn is more credible, and I do think it makes for better TV. I know some folks are opposed to such changes, but to me, as long as the changes aren't enough to affect their actions, but go more towards interpreting the exact shade of gray in which the character is painted, I'm fine with that. Cersei's still a nasty bitch, but I can see better why she thinks she is justified in what she is doing.

Btw, I think they've also done a very good job of showing how she's losing/lost control of Joffrey. Very good acting on both ends.

Of course, if they make Gregor all cute and cuddly, I'll be throwing my remote through the screen.

I agree I think Cersi has been one of the best examples of a character bringing something extra and positive to the interpretation of a character.

I also think in a TV show you don't have the liberty of bringing a character growth along as slowly and subtly as in a book. So you use a hammer not a scalpel. I just don't think the continuity holds from the show itself. I hope the move will make more sense later on. Maybe i am blinded by my Cat bias :)

[Buckwheat]

When I saw this scene I figured that in the grand scope of things, it'll probably matter. I always believed that Catelyn/Jon reunion (with Cat giving him the kiss of life, or at least them just making up) would be incredibly poetic.

I do not think there is much likelihood this will happen; UnCat is in the Riverlands and I guess she will stay there, and Jon's story is at the Wall. And evem thematically, it does not fit. Cat in the books always disliked Jon, it was one her characteristic that was negative and made her feel more real. If she suddenly decided she needs to "redeem" for it, it would make her less realistic IMO.

[Stark@heart]

So, what did you think of this scene? I know most people hated it - but what is the point of it? Is it to to really emphasize that connection Jon still has to the Starks and that he can be legitimized at one point? I personally didn't like the change because it didn't feel like something that Cat would ever think, but I'm curious what others think...

EDIT: here is the whole dialogue:

"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering.

[Which boy?]

Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

[And he lived?]

And he lived. And I couldn't keep my promise. And everything that's happened since then, all this horror that's come to my family, it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child."

EDIT: i'm quoting Francis Buck from another thread, because I think it's interesting:

Catelyn's story about Jon was...weird. It doesn't bother me, necessarily but it was definitely a strange addition. It's one of those instances (like Dany's vision of the Iron Throne destroyed and covered in snow) where I feel like the showrunners know important things about the end of the series, and thus are purposely foreshadowing events that the book readers could have no inkling to. I really don't think they just make up random shit like that for the sake of it (though that's how many book readers seem to feel).

I loved it!!

It came out of no where? or did it? I like your thinking on that!

I just love the fact that they finally made her say it!

That's been my feelings about Cat from the start. She's caught up on Family, Duty, Honor in a bad way and it keeps her from making Jon a part of her Family and even pretending to like him, a Duty in that society that could have been expected of her, because "Ned's Bastard" affronted her sense of Honor.

It was also Cat who insisted Ned to go south with the King because it suited her purpose / idea of Family, Duty, Honor after the letter was received from her sister/ family Lysa.

And it was Cat, who listened to Littelfinger and never questioned the motive of a man she spurred years ago and hasn't seen or spoke to since, who took Tyrion. Out of her own sense of fulfilling the motto of Family, Duty, Honor.

Yes, Cat is much more complex and shrewd in some instances in the book but I think the show is doing a great job getting across the truth behind the characters. Almost everyone who reads the books has that feeling about Cat. That she should have accepted and loved Jon, it might not have changed anything but you never know. The readers get to have those moments of wondering after reading the words on the page. The viewer has to see it.

Alot of things have and will be changed, that's the nature of it but it can also add to the experience / meaning in the books. I think that will happen with the Others too. l think the show will reveal some "background" that will answer or at least address some of the question surrounding The Wall and Others and wrights and ice magic, etc.

I was never a Cat fan, more like / hate and I can see why the show needed to make her more likeable and use her character to explain some things. Like what happens when she dies will also tell alot. Can't wait.

[David Selig]

Yes, Cat is much more complex and shrewd in some instances in the book but I think the show is doing a great job getting across the truth behind the characters. Almost everyone who reads the books has that feeling about Cat. That she should have accepted and loved Jon

*edit*deleted, because I misread a bit and was a jerk.*

Cat had no reason at all to love Jon and plenty of reasons to dislike him and be wary of him.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Almost everyone who reads the books has that feeling about Cat. That she should have accepted and loved Jon, it might not have changed anything but you never know.

I think you're doing some projection there, or perhaps need to talk to more readers.

I personally think it would have been a good and admirable thing to do, but that's precisely because it would have been the exception rather than the rule. Even though it seems wrong in a moral sense, her resenting Jon is still understandable to me. But, I think there was a middle ground between never calling him by his name, and treating her as one of her own, that she could have more reasonably occupied.

On the other hand, I really do like the insight into her thinking, on occasion, that she should have been more of a mother to him. I think it is very human and credible for a wife in that position to hold a general anger against the child, but also that, on occasion, the mother inside is struck by a pang of conscience that the anger is really misdirected, that this is really just a child without a mother, and to feel some level of pity/guilt.

[The hairy bear]

Almost everyone who reads the books has that feeling about Cat. That she should have accepted and loved Jon, it might not have changed anything but you never know.

That's an obviously false statement, given how divisive the Cat threads use to be.

Really: put yourself in her situation for a minute. Your spouse brings home a baby, refuses to tell you where it comes from, forbids you from asking about it, forces you to accept that he'll grow up among your children. That's already more than anyone should have to bear. But demanding to love the kid on top of that? Madness.

[Where Boars Glow]

I do not think there is much likelihood this will happen; UnCat is in the Riverlands and I guess she will stay there, and Jon's story is at the Wall. And evem thematically, it does not fit. Cat in the books always disliked Jon, it was one her characteristic that was negative and made her feel more real. If she suddenly decided she needs to "redeem" for it, it would make her less realistic IMO.

Even the first season of the show was this way. It was a pretty 180 change for Cat to suddenly become the nurturing mother of Jon Snow :)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's an obviously false statement, given how divisive the Cat threads use to be.

Really: put yourself in her situation for a minute. Your spouse brings home a baby, refuses to tell you where it comes from, forbids you from asking about it, forces you to accept that he'll grow up among your children. That's already more than anyone should have to bear. But demanding to love the kid on top of that? Madness.

I'll say this -- I know of situations in the RL where there are babies of dubious lineage raised in part by a non-biological mother or father, who attempt, and often succeed, in showing that baby love. I don't think the concept that the ability to love, or at least be very kind to, a child, is limited to children to whom you are related biologically.

Westeros is a different place, which is why I think it proper to cut Cat a bit more slack. But I don't think the idea that a woman could love the child while feeling anger over what her husband did is all that unrealistic either.

[Where Boars Glow]

That's an obviously false statement, given how divisive the Cat threads use to be.

Really: put yourself in her situation for a minute. Your spouse brings home a baby, refuses to tell you where it comes from, forbids you from asking about it, forces you to accept that he'll grow up among your children. That's already more than anyone should have to bear. But demanding to love the kid on top of that? Madness.

Well it wasn't the kids fault. I think the thing that always angered me as that there was a villain in this situation....It definately wasn't Jon Snow...it was Eddard Stark. He didn't trust his wife enough to tell her the truth. She didn't have the courage to yell at who she was really mad at and projected those feelings onto a lonely child. I think that has always been the unforgivable sin of Cat i have trouble getting past.

Just always reminded me of that girl trying to pull the hair out of some other girl for sleeping with her boyfriend...then forgiving the boyfriend without batting an eye. Never made any sense to me.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

it was Eddard Stark. He didn't trust his wife enough to tell her the truth. She didn't have the courage to yell at who she was really mad at and projected those feelings onto a lonely child. I think that has always been the unforgivable sin of Cat i have trouble getting past.

Ned did what he had to do. Jon's parentage absolutely had to be kept a secret. He was very newly married to Catelyn when he brought back Jon, and didn't know her very well at all. He had no way of knowing if she'd actually be able to keep her mouth shut or not, or whether, in a moment of confidence with a female friend, she might reveal that "it's not really his". Had he told her later, after their relationship was stronger and they knew each other better, the change in her behavior to Jon may have attracted unwanted attention.

The thing about secrets is that you have to keep them, or they're not secrets. If you are given information under the condition that you don't tell anyone, then that means don't tell anyone. It doesn't mean you can tell other people as long as they promise not to tell, because if you can't trust yourself to keep that promise, why should you trust the person to whom you're entrusting that confidence to keep theirs?

It's always puzzled me when people come up to me and say "I'm not supposed to tell anyone, but....". My response is always "then don't tell me". The converse just doesn't make any sense.