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mcbrigno

[BOOK SPOILERS] Tyrion & Sansa

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With the set-up scene with Shae saying "we need to protect her [sansa]", I'm going to make a guess that Tyrion, rather than Tywin, is actually going to propose the idea of marrying Sansa in order to "protect her".

This could happen for several reasons:

1) It further gives the audience reason to believe Tyrion is a good man deep down.

2) It's consistent with Tyrion helping Sansa anyway, even though she will likely not see it that way.

3) Tywin or Joffrey may propose that something be done with her or she be married off to someone else and Tyrion will feel bad, remember Shae's "protect her" bit, and step up to help.

4) It would further strike home Tyrion's feelings towards Joffrey during the "Everyone is mine to torment" scene.

Did anyone else get this feeling? I'm betting my money on it. It could very well be proposed just as in the books but it seemed like they were setting up for it to happen this way given that scene.

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I have the strong feeling the relationship will evolve in the next few episodes. If I remember righ there is a scene between these two in the gardens or something. Maybe they plot it. It will be defenetly different to the books. I like it

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Actually, TV Tyrion in this episode seemed fairly unconcerned about what was going to happen to Sansa. Shae was the one pushing to protect Sansa, and in response to her concerns, Tyrion more or less said nothing could be done as to Littlefinger's interest in Sansa, as (he implied) Littlefinger would be one of many suitors would be hounding Sansa because of her beauty/name. Tyrion seemed a lot like his book self, actually, commenting on Sansa's beauty in the abstract but not really thinking much about her one way or another, even when Shae flagged what she believed to be a potential threat. So I don't really see this version of Tyrion going out of his way to propose marriage as a way of protecting Sansa; his thought in this episode seemed to be that the only threat she faced was that of sorting through all the suitors vying for her hand. He almost made it sound as if Sansa would be free to marry as she chose, now that the Lannisters had "discarded" her, but either TV Tyrion is much more naive than his book self, or maybe he was just offering some glib reassurance to Shae without thinking about it too much.

My impression after 3x02 is that TV Tyrion seems disinclined to go out of his way for Sansa, which, again, tracks pretty closely to his book self. That could change, I guess, but there was a marked contrast between Shae's sternly telling Sansa to come to her if Littlefinger tried anything and Tyrion shrugging off Shae's insistence on protecting Sansa with a simple "We can't" and indicating he didn't want to talk about Sansa.

If I remember righ there is a scene between these two in the gardens or something.

Yes, but it's probably the following:

Sansa has a scene in the gardens/godswood equivalent in 3x10, since there's a still of her from 3x10 in an outdoors setting. I'm guessing this is the scene where Tyrion informs her about the Red Wedding.

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The show will completely ruin Sansa`s arc. There`s no doubt in that. Not long ago I said that TV Tyrion is much lovable than book Tyrion, and because of that, TV fans will hate Sansa for her behaviour in that marriage.

Never forget that at the moment of his wedding Tyrion has nothing. And with the wedding he could gain a lot. He isn`t some Prince Charming trying to save her from some unthinkable horrors.

And if producers pull that on Tyrion and Sansa, I`ll be really disappointed with their shortsightness when Sansa`s character is concerned

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TV Tyrion is much lovable than book Tyrion, and because of that, TV fans will hate Sansa for her behaviour in that marriage.

Eh, I dunno about that. In 3x02, the episode paired Shae's warning to Sansa about men only wanting one thing from a pretty girl with Tyrion commenting on Sansa being a great beauty, linking Shae's comment about the nefarious intentions of men towards pretty girls with Tyrion's noticing Sansa's beauty. (And Shae expressed outrage towards Tyrion referring to Sansa as a great beauty, calling him a pervert and Sansa a child.)

The other thing I noticed in 3x02 (and in the premiere) was the shots of the Lannister soldiers accompanying Sansa everywhere she goes (lurking outside her door, trailing behind her as she walked with Loras, watching her at the docks): it's a subtle reminder of her status as a prisoner in KL and the oppressive presence of the Lannisters in Sansa's life.

I mean, it could go any number of ways, but it seems like TV Sansa and TV Tyrion are tracking fairly close to their book selves right now: Sansa is starry-eyed about the Tyrells, and Tyrion views Sansa as beautiful but really isn't losing any sleep worrying about her plight. Sounds about right.

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I'm furious about where this is going. Involving Tyrion via Shae is sooo clumsy, and really just wrong IMO. And as if Sansa, after promising Littlefinger that she wouldn't tell ANYONE about their arrangement, would sit there chatting with Shae about his intentions with her. Really really poorly done.

And if Tyrion does propose that he marries Sansa, I'll be even more furious. That really would be character butchery for Tyrion. The whole idea of his father proposing the marriage was to enforce that Tywin was still in charge, and could force his son into whatever he chose to suit the realm. Tyrion's unwillingness in his marriage fuels his hatred for his father, which is pretty important given the way things turn out between the two of them. I'm really worried about this whole arc now that you've raised this...

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And as if Sansa, after promising Littlefinger that she wouldn't tell ANYONE about their arrangement, would sit there chatting with Shae about his intentions with her.

Sansa didn't mention the escape plan, though; that was made very clear. She held up that end. She danced around it by stating that Littlefinger took an interest in her because of his love for Catelyn, which led into the conversation with Shae. Shae was probing as to whether there was something else, but Sansa refused to divulge anything about the escape plan.

And if Tyrion does propose that he marries Sansa, I'll be even more furious.

I don't think Tyrion will propose that he marries Sansa. I do think that Shae will tell Tyrion about the planned Tyrell marriage, and that Tyrion will take that news to Tywin (probably without fully grasping what will happen as a result, although he might). Then Tywin turns around and asks him to marry Sansa.

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The writers have played it very smartly indeed. With this one seed, they have planted the roots for 3 things, one of which was unexplained in the books:

1) LF being sent away to the Vale.

2) Tyrion marrying Sansa.

3) Shae betraying Tyrion, which was never given a reason in the book. So, we assumed it was her whore-ish nature that led to it. Maybe they're giving this a deeper storyline?

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I don't think Tyrion will propose that he marries Sansa. I do think that Shae will tell Tyrion about the planned Tyrell marriage, and that Tyrion will take that news to Tywin (probably without fully grasping what will happen as a result, although he might). Then Tywin turns around and asks him to marry Sansa.

I very much doubt that Tywin would 'ask' Tyrion to marry Sansa, I think it is far more likely he will command it. Tywin is now hand of the king and is overlooking a kingdom that Joffrey is not doing a good job at running and he is trying to watch the Tyrell's. Tywin made it very clear in the first episode that they would give Tyrion a place and a wife in time. Sansa will be that wife one way or another the only dispute is how it happens. I think Tywin will be the one to make the arrangement for the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa, if you ask me he's already considered that possibility, it needs to be made clear Tywin is in power.

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Its obvious to me that the show is building up a breakdown of Tyrion and Shae's relationship because of his marriage to Sansa. I actually thought that the scene was brilliant and shows some long term thinking on behalf of the showrunners, and am surprised that some people seem to have found it pointless. It builds up Tyrion explaining to Shae that Sansa is a perfect match for any lord, coming from an old family and having a pretty face, seeming unconcerned about her fate, and Shae being disgusted with his attitude. I think the show will also slightly move away from the direction of the book in how they handle the consummation of the marriage. Tyrion will not do anything, but I think Tywin (or maybe Tyrion himself) will let it be known that they have, which will disgust Shae.

I definitely think the proposal for the marriage will come from Tywin and will not be some kind of 'scheme' that Shae and Tyrion come up with. Why would Shae think to 'protect' Sansa by marrying her to her own lover, knowing full well that marriage means consummation with her husband, and her obvious disgust at Tyrion seeing Sansa as attractive?

I actually like this change quite a bit better than the books. Much more dramatic. And it actually makes Tyrion a much greyer character. The show makes him seem slightly unconcerned about Sansa's fate, even though he's been semi-protective of her up to know, and has shown him a) to be have ambition to become a great lord in himself given he wants Casterly Rock, and B) to consider Sansa a great match for any lord. I think the marriage will have an element of selfishness on behalf of Tyrion. I think Shae will betray him because of it, and he will kill her at the end as he did in the books. And it also makes Tyrion's fall much more heart-felt because he kills a woman whom he actually loved, and who actually loved him at one point, rather than a young girl who never truly pretended to be anything other than a whore.

This was definitely one of my FAVORITE scenes in the episode.

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Eh, I dunno about that. In 3x02, the episode paired Shae's warning to Sansa about men only wanting one thing from a pretty girl with Tyrion commenting on Sansa being a great beauty, linking Shae's comment about the nefarious intentions of men towards pretty girls with Tyrion's noticing Sansa's beauty. (And Shae expressed outrage towards Tyrion referring to Sansa as a great beauty, calling him a pervert and Sansa a child.)

Which was also quite quickly pushed aside as playful banter between the two of them. Shae knows quite well that Sansa is not a child and that she is a beautiful young woman - she is making it difficult on Tyrion because she knows she can.

The other thing I noticed in 3x02 (and in the premiere) was the shots of the Lannister soldiers accompanying Sansa everywhere she goes (lurking outside her door, trailing behind her as she walked with Loras, watching her at the docks): it's a subtle reminder of her status as a prisoner in KL and the oppressive presence of the Lannisters in Sansa's life.

I mean, it could go any number of ways, but it seems like TV Sansa and TV Tyrion are tracking fairly close to their book selves right now: Sansa is starry-eyed about the Tyrells, and Tyrion views Sansa as beautiful but really isn't losing any sleep worrying about her plight. Sounds about right.

The difference is that Tyrion is far more likeable as a screen character than what we know has happened in the books. When we see her - if they go this way - fail to kneel next to Tyrion to accept the cloak, that will look worse on her than on him because of how well received he is by the audience.

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The show will completely ruin Sansa`s arc. There`s no doubt in that. Not long ago I said that TV Tyrion is much lovable than book Tyrion, and because of that, TV fans will hate Sansa for her behaviour in that marriage.

Never forget that at the moment of his wedding Tyrion has nothing. And with the wedding he could gain a lot. He isn`t some Prince Charming trying to save her from some unthinkable horrors.

And if producers pull that on Tyrion and Sansa, I`ll be really disappointed with their shortsightness when Sansa`s character is concerned

I'll be more than disappointed, I'll be furious. They've already sabotaged Sansa's character enough as it is! They turned her into some sort of huge brat in season one.

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I'll be more than disappointed, I'll be furious. They've already sabotaged Sansa's character enough as it is! They turned her into some sort of huge brat in season one.

Entire last season, after her acting on the finale of S01, I was waiting for her shining moment. And she was just frightened little girl. And I thought `God they are ruining her` but then happened `Blackwater` episode and I was thrilled to see her comeback. But GRRM has written that episode so credits go to him. But, this season, I have to say I like her storyarc. First her remark on truth being horrible or boring, and now her conversation with Queen of Thorns. It was outstanding. So I wouldn`t like her storyarc to be cheapened by some attempt to make Tyrion some Prince Charming of Westeros.

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I'll be more than disappointed, I'll be furious. They've already sabotaged Sansa's character enough as it is! They turned her into some sort of huge brat in season one.

She was pretty much a huge brat in the first book as well, we just saw through her POV what she thought.

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Let's be honest, this is how it's probably going to play out: Tyrion and Sansa will get married, one way or another. Maybe it's his idea, maybe it's Tywin's, maybe it's Cersei's. Maybe it's Marg's.

Regardless, TV!Shae has now been established as a green-eyed monster. Seeing her little lion marry Sansa is going to drive her to her inevitable betrayal. Not for gold or prospects, but for vengeance.

Yeah, it's out-of-character for "I don't care who you fuck, I can do it better" Book!Shae, but this character isn't her.

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The show will completely ruin Sansa`s arc. There`s no doubt in that. Not long ago I said that TV Tyrion is much lovable than book Tyrion, and because of that, TV fans will hate Sansa for her behaviour in that marriage.

I bet Sansa would actually start to love Tyrion at least a bit and would be very reluctant to leave him, if not downright forced to do it. They've whitewashed Tyrion so much it would only be natural to go in this direction.

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I bet Sansa would actually start to love Tyrion at least a bit and would be very reluctant to leave him, if not downright forced to do it. They've whitewashed Tyrion so much it would only be natural to go in this direction.

Please no. I want her storyarc going as it did in the books. I want her not to bend her knees on her wedding, I want her not to have understanding or wanting to have it for Lannisters. I want cold, Wall-like Sansa. I don`t need chick-flick storyarc where she is going to fall for man who did everything to protect her despite his looks. It`s tideous.

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Actually, TV Tyrion in this episode seemed fairly unconcerned about what was going to happen to Sansa. Shae was the one pushing to protect Sansa, and in response to her concerns, Tyrion more or less said nothing could be done as to Littlefinger's interest in Sansa, as (he implied) Littlefinger would be one of many suitors would be hounding Sansa because of her beauty/name. Tyrion seemed a lot like his book self, actually, commenting on Sansa's beauty in the abstract but not really thinking much about her one way or another, even when Shae flagged what she believed to be a potential threat. So I don't really see this version of Tyrion going out of his way to propose marriage as a way of protecting Sansa; his thought in this episode seemed to be that the only threat she faced was that of sorting through all the suitors vying for her hand. He almost made it sound as if Sansa would be free to marry as she chose, now that the Lannisters had "discarded" her, but either TV Tyrion is much more naive than his book self, or maybe he was just offering some glib reassurance to Shae without thinking about it too much.

This.

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The writers have played it very smartly indeed. With this one seed, they have planted the roots for 3 things, one of which was unexplained in the books:

1) LF being sent away to the Vale.

2) Tyrion marrying Sansa.

3) Shae betraying Tyrion, which was never given a reason in the book. So, we assumed it was her whore-ish nature that led to it. Maybe they're giving this a deeper storyline?

Yes - this was the purpose and significance of this episode's Tyrion/Shae scene, and particularly Shae's reaction to Tyrion's offhand remark reagarding Sansa's beauty.

- Tyrion freaks out a bit over Shae visiting him at his chambers, due to Tywin's threat. Seed planted in Shae's mind that Tyrion may be trying to push her away.

- Shae learns that Tyrion has fucked Ros (for whom Shae has little but contempt), sowing a little seed of jealousy.

- Tyrion posits that Sansa's beauty and name will bring her many suitors. Shae reacts harshly as she still views Sansa as a child and is very protective of her. Another seed planted.

These facts set up the following:

- Tywin commands Tyrion to marry Sansa. Tyrion agrees out of a sense of duty to the family.

- Tyrion is unable to successfully communicate this to Shae. Shae assumes Tyrion has other motives based on the above "seeds."

- Shae betrays Tyrion.

What this enables is for Tyrion to maintain a believable love story with Shae until circumstances converge that not only destroy that relationship, but directly aid in his downfall. I cannot foresee a scenario at this point where TV-Shae will forgive Tyrion for marrying Sansa.

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Please no. I want her storyarc going as it did in the books. I want her not to bend her knees on her wedding, I want her not to have understanding or wanting to have it for Lannisters. I want cold, Wall-like Sansa. I don`t need chick-flick storyarc where she is going to fall for man who did everything to protect her despite his looks. It`s tideous.

I am with you, but I am expecting the mess I described already, since the writers are on a mission to present Tyrion as totally awesome all the time.

I can just see now that Shae would betray Tyrion because he's so irresistable and she felt really in love with him, but was jealous of Sansa....

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