Jaime Lannister's death

[Lady Fevre Dream]

He's either going to escape or make a deal. Remember, Jaime knows about fake-Arya and Ramsay taking Winterfell. I'm sure Lady Stoneheart would be interested in that information.

Hmmmmmm, that is interesting, but I'm thinking that LS and the Brotherhood realize this, too. Otherwise, LS would probably be planning some type of assault of her own on Winterfell to rescue her daughter. It is a given that anyone who realizes that the Hound had Arya with him up until sometime right before the assault on Saltpans, the realization that Ramsey's Arya is false should follow. That in itself makes one wonder, when people in the Riverlands who can figure this out.......might reveal it for political purposes against The Bolton's and The Lannister's, ie Cersei, that is. I'm not counting on much that Jaime does to be in Cersei's greatest interest anymore. It'll be interesting how he tries to honor all those vows (as he tried to honor not assaulting Riverrun and found a way, and to continue the search for the Stark girls to protect them from Cersei) he has made, not be Cersei's stooge, but still.......try and do what's best for Tommen, too. What's best for Tommen is to get that sweet kid off the IT, but that's another thread altogether, I guess.

[Shebara]

I think Jaime and Cersei will leave the world at the same moment...and I think it will be at Casterly Rock - Brienne present too - because of the dream he nad when leaving Harrenhall and because the conviction that they will leave the world together has been already stated several times.

[Alhazred]

I can't believe I'm asking this but I just have to... Were you aware that Feast and Dance run concurrently in the same time for the most part?

Yes I am.

Why are you asking this? It's a mystery to me too.

[modbelle]

Jaime has got to get to the Stark girls, and truly see the cost of all that has happened. He still needs to deal with girls and their identity issues, not to mention try to save them when they probably want to kill you. For goodness sake, Jaime is trying to save a faceless girl trainee. Arya has a hit list made up of mostly Lannisters, their men, and allies. How do you save someone who wants to be the ruin of your house and will be placing herself into all sorts of danger. The one great thing Jaime can bring to the table is his own dealings with identity issues, and going deep inside where people like a Mad King burning humans alive can't hurt you. So no, Jaime can't die, he still has far more interesting storylines to play out. Selfishly I think he has one of the best POV voices in the entire series, and if Jaime dies, I hope it won't be until the very end.

[LordStoneheart]

Yes I am.

Why are you asking this? It's a mystery to me too.

Because the absence of Brienne and Jaime chapters if you compare the table of contents doesn't suggest Jaime is missing for months in the sense of missing person... He just hasn't had a POV because that's where GRRM wanted his story to cliffhangerize. Not exactly evidence that anything nefarious has happened to either of them.

[JungWheats]

Last we hear from Kevan, though, it has been a couple weeks since he was last seen by any of the men he left with. That doesn't mean anything, though.

[silentwanderer]

I think Jaime and Cersei will leave the world at the same moment...and I think it will be at Casterly Rock - Brienne present too - because of the dream he nad when leaving Harrenhall and because the conviction that they will leave the world together has been already stated several times.

I think Jaime and Brienne are going to be what Catelyn and Ned should've been have they had the chance to beat the Lannisters.

[sapphire_lion]

I think Jaime and Cersei will leave the world at the same moment...and I think it will be at Casterly Rock - Brienne present too - because of the dream he nad when leaving Harrenhall and because the conviction that they will leave the world together has been already stated several times.

I took that dream to mean that Cersei would die before Jaime since she, Tywin, Joffrey, and the other faceless Lannisters left him behind. Also, Jaime came into the world holding onto Cersei with his right hand, but he no longer has that hand and that connection has been broken. I don't think they will be leaving together.

[Alhazred]

Because the absence of Brienne and Jaime chapters if you compare the table of contents doesn't suggest Jaime is missing for months in the sense of missing person... He just hasn't had a POV because that's where GRRM wanted his story to cliffhangerize. Not exactly evidence that anything nefarious has happened to either of them.

Well, that's a whole different argument. I still don't see the connection to the remark you made before.

And possibly you are right. However, he has gone long enough for his disappearance to be noticed in King's Landing. It is a matter of weeks, at he very least, and, I think, probably months. Jaime has been gone long enough to be gone longer than he intended. Either we have already missed part of his story, or his story will be told out of order, or in flashback.

It's an ominous situation. And your statement that GRRM just wants to "cliffhangerize" suggests your acknowledgement that GRRM is indeed playing up its ominous nature. Whether he is trying to fool us or not, GRRM has indeed given us reason to be worried.

[MotherMerciless]

Because the absence of Brienne and Jaime chapters if you compare the table of contents doesn't suggest Jaime is missing for months in the sense of missing person... He just hasn't had a POV because that's where GRRM wanted his story to cliffhangerize. Not exactly evidence that anything nefarious has happened to either of them.

Quite... There is a huge difference between months and weeks, especially in a world where ravens are phones and a broken limb/change of plan/ obstacle can slow down any communication. The cliffhangerizing is Martin's most dreaded weapon and he uses it artfully.

'Generally', a character survives a cliffhanger in the books, and I honestly would be really let down if the next few words about Jaime end up being something along the lines of "His lifeles body floated along the river like a bloated pig". The amazingly well built character that is Jaime Lannister demands much more than that, so we either get a flashback (unusual to me) or, we simply get a P.O.V from either him or Brienne.

Furthermore, a end to the build up Martin has made, at this point, would just seem a waste of something that could have been awesome, a bigger waste, to me, than even Ned's death. Ned's death was the beginning of the story, his death was the catalyst. Jaime's death at this point wouldn't serve much, it would be a deflated baloon. I imagine even some Jaime haters want him to die further on (and painfully and horrifically, embarassingly etc etc :) ).

[Alhazred]

'Generally', a character survives a cliffhanger in the books, and I honestly would be really let down if the next few words about Jaime end up being something along the lines of "His lifeles body floated along the river like a bloated pig".

Ah ... but that's not what I predicted.

Jaime's death at this point wouldn't serve much, it would be a deflated baloon.

It's all setup for UnJaime. UnJaime will follow up, in a grotesquely warped and distorted way, on all the character developments of Jaime.

[LordStoneheart]

Well, that's a whole different argument. I still don't see the connection to the remark you made before.

And possibly you are right. However, he has gone long enough for his disappearance to be noticed in King's Landing. It is a matter of weeks, at he very least, and, I think, probably months. Jaime has been gone long enough to be gone longer than he intended. Either we have already missed part of his story, or his story will be told out of order, or in flashback.

It's an ominous situation. And your statement that GRRM just wants to "cliffhangerize" suggests your acknowledgement that GRRM is indeed playing up its ominous nature. Whether he is trying to fool us or not, GRRM has indeed given us reason to be worried.

I don't think his noted absence in KL is really evidence that he has already died, just merely suspense until his next POV shows up. The Arms of the Kraken chapters happen during aSoS. Jaime and Brienne's chapters in the WoW wouldn't necessarily be 'flashbacks' as we know them, just as Arya's chapters aren't really considered flash forwards.

My remark was genuine, but not meant to cause offense. It would be an easy mistake to make to think Feast and Dance are sequential if you're going through the books fast enough and miss the author's notes on it.

[winteriscome]

I think there is very little chance of Jaime surviving. Roose pretty much sealed his coffin with "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" bit. A point I made in my post here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97293-jaime-lannister-sends-his-regards/#entry4985656

I also think Jaime might have had a fair idea as to what was going to happen.

[Alhazred]

My remark was genuine, but not meant to cause offense. It would be an easy mistake to make to think Feast and Dance are sequential if you're going through the books fast enough and miss the author's notes on it.

IIRC, the final Jaime chapter of Dance took place after the "divided by POV" part of Dance, which is the only reason we got any Jaime at all.

But if you are merely saying that we may still get a Jaime or Brienne POV chapter, told out of chronological order, telling us what we have missed, then I grant your point. That is indeed a possibility.

Chronolological order still does tend to be the general rule. Hence, the silence on Jaime and Brienne IS ominous, as you seem to agree. Even if that's just GRRM being cliffhangery.

[LordStoneheart]

IIRC, the final Jaime chapter of Dance took place after the "divided by POV" part of Dance, which is the only reason we got any Jaime at all.

But if you are merely saying that we may still get a Jaime or Brienne POV chapter, told out of chronological order, telling us what we have missed, then I grant your point. That is indeed a possibility.

Chronolological order still does tend to be the general rule. Hence, the silence on Jaime and Brienne IS ominous, as you seem to agree. Even if that's just GRRM being cliffhangery.

In the preface of aSoS GRRM says that its not always sequential order. If you look at the "After the Feast" chapter orders of Dance, there really isn't that much POVs from the feast characters. It pretty much just Jaime once, Asha, Victarion, and Arya, but her case doesn't really count since her story line is ahead of the others. Jaime's one chapter and Brienne's lack thereof is pure cliffhanger. Any more chapters in the book would've made it way more long and cluttered than it actually was. I don't think Jaime and Brienne are safe by any means, but I believe the deficiency in the chapters tells little.

[Alhazred]

In the preface of aSoS GRRM says that its not always sequential order.

Nonetheless, that preface DOES seem to confirm that sequential order is indeed meant to be the GENERAL rule, notwithstanding exceptions made when necessary. Note that the general reason given for general exceptions - that some chapters cover a long period, such that the next chapter must go back in time to re-cover the same period - does not seem to apply in the case of Jaime.

If you look at the "After the Feast" chapter orders of Dance, there really isn't that much POVs from the feast characters. It pretty much just Jaime once, Asha, Victarion, and Arya,

And Cersei & Kevan.

The imbalance toward events at Meereen & the Wall suggests merely that alot of stuff is going on there at the moment.

but her case doesn't really count since her story line is ahead of the others.

The fact that he may have pushed the story ahead just to include a token ARYA chapter seems emphasize that the main reason for any imbalance in POVs is that more stuff is happening at particular places.

But of course it also shows that events are not NECESSARILY chronological. I still think chronology is the general rule, though.

Jaime's one chapter and Brienne's lack thereof is pure cliffhanger. Any more chapters in the book would've made it way more long and cluttered than it actually was. I don't think Jaime and Brienne are safe by any means, but I believe the deficiency in the chapters tells little.

Yes, but on the other hand ... Any more chapters from Jaime and Brienne will continue to make the book problematically long and cluttered, ESPECIALLY if we have to go back in time to tell their story, rather than continuing to move forward.

I mean, Dany has not even reached Westeros yet, and yet you suppose that GRRM is running behind even the landmarks he seems to have reached, and must go back to cover ground he has missed. Dany will never get to Westeros at this rate.

We have too many POVs. This is causing problems. My theory has the advantage of postulating that 2 POVs have been eliminated. These characters will appear, from now on, only in the POVs of others. No need to go back in time. No need to clutter. We will find out what happened to Jaime when and to the extent that Cersei, or whoever else, finds out.

Maybe that's optimistic (except for Jaime/Brienne fans) but so be it.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

This to me is one of the more interesting POVs I can't wait to see. I think this can go a lot of different ways, and for one I just don't see the sense in GRRM keeping him around for this long, and being involved in all that he has to just do a complete circle to meet up with Cat and have him die at her hands. After all she did release him and they both made a pact. I think he convinces them all that he had nothing to do with the RW and he is spared. What he does to do so? You got me!

[Lady cut throat]

Cersei and Jaime came into the world together, and they will leave the world together.

[Northernmonkey]

I don't agree with all the people who say he has to live because he's got unfinished business with Cersei. I thought that after he ignored her request for help in AFFC, their storyline is over (at least on his part).

I think he'll survive because Cat will decide that he can be of use to her in someday (probably to help her get Arya or Sansa back).

[Melpomene]

I see him survive a little while longer, including making it past UnCat in some way. I feel like he has a lot more to do or be involved in. Especially since he only just went through his whole redemption arc, and changing his roots and plans a bit. We all know he isn't stupid, he will figure out Cat is nothing more than blind rage and be able to wrong around it somehow.

In regards to his actual end when it arrives, I still picture a murder-suicide scenerio with Cersei. He might be done with her, but she just might desperately try something. Once she manages to be near him again, she will insist in making sure they die together. She will try to kill him, and in return kill herself. Not sure how she would kill him persay, perhaps via a small knife that was hidden then stabs him in the back, through poison, or pushing him from a height. Maybe she would go as far as sending an assasin to kill him from a distance.

Granted, doesn't mean her attempt would be successful either. She might try, but he could still survive, while she dies herself (Or not). Still though, part of me "senses" a scenerio close to that, in due time.

As someone brought up already, she will probably end up fulfilling her desire, but not the way she wanted. Would be more chaotic and less romantic, definitely..