Repurposed feminism - Why we still need it

[Larry of the Lawn]

I guess what I'm wondering is why is the fact that women didn't have to murder people in order to vote a mistake in feminist history? And if this wasn't your point, and you were just trying to say that suffrage was different for men than for women, well yeah, because men didn't let women vote. Until they fought for it.

Edit: Yes, I am completely missing the point, but not on purpose.

[TerraPrime]

I am not saying women should go to war to get a right to vote, just don't pretend it is equality if women don't have same responsibilites and only have same rights.

You made it sound like it's the feminists who want to maintain the status quo of prohiting women from being in active combats (note that women already go to war; the distinction you're reaching for is active combat duties). Do you have evidence for this? I've rarely heard any women say that they refuse to agitate for the change in rules that will allow women to enter active combat roles in the military because they think it's the job of men to go die, and not women's. In fact, the preponderant opposition to allowing women in active combat roles are men, citing a variety of reasons, ranging from the need to protect women for their capacity to reproduce to the predicted disruption women might bring to active combat units, and sometimes straight up admission to chauvinism. So if you have evidence saying that feminists are playing a major role in stopping the equalization of active combat participation, then I would like to see it.

Otherwise, I think you're very much mistaken on this issue.

[Knez Snow]

I thought anti-feminists are always so keen to point out that there are biological differences. Yes technology has not granted men other options for avoiding pregnancy yet, life sucks and you deal with it.

By your logic though condom shouldn't be in the female column as well since it's "something the man does".

The only one of those I see anything other than biological difference in (and really, I'd fucking take the option where I don't have to carry the child to term in exchange for reduced options myself) is that women can choose to adopt their child, where a man can't. I've argued about that on this board before, that there should be a possibility early in pregnancy in certain circumstances for the father to state "I wish for this pregnancy not to continue and disavow parental responsibilities". It's a fuckload more complicated than that and a lot would have to go into the drafting of this law, but that IS a legal inequality.

Women don't have to give consent if condom is not used, therefore they have complete control over that.But ok we agree on opting out from fatherhood, kind of. Saying "I wish for pregnency to discontinue" is king of extreme; just "I won't be a father" is enough. like women can say "I won't be a mother".

[Knez Snow]

You made it sound like it's the feminists who want to maintain the status quo of prohiting women from being in active combats (note that women already go to war; the distinction you're reaching for is active combat duties). Do you have evidence for this? I've rarely heard any women say that they refuse to agitate for the change in rules that will allow women to enter active combat roles in the military because they think it's the job of men to go die, and not women's. In fact, the preponderant opposition to allowing women in active combat roles are men, citing a variety of reasons, ranging from the need to protect women for their capacity to reproduce to the predicted disruption women might bring to active combat units, and sometimes straight up admission to chauvinism. So if you have evidence saying that feminists are playing a major role in stopping the equalization of active combat participation, then I would like to see it.

Otherwise, I think you're very much mistaken on this issue.

My point is actually that women in war(military) today have that possibility as a right, not as a responsibility. Unlike men.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Women don't have to give consent if condom is not used, therefore they have complete control over that.But ok we agree on opting out from fatherhood, kind of. Saying "I wish for pregnency to discontinue" is king of extreme; just "I won't be a father" is enough. like women can say "I won't be a mother".

Vasectomy is always an option.

[Castel]

Women don't have to give consent if condom is not used, therefore they have complete control over that.But ok we agree on opting out from fatherhood, kind of. Saying "I wish for pregnency to discontinue" is king of extreme; just "I won't be a father" is enough. like women can say "I won't be a mother".

How can you not opt out of being a father? You can absolutely decide that you don't want to be a dad. That's your choice.

[karaddin]

My point is actually that women in war(military) today have that possibility as a right, not as a responsibility. Unlike men.

We don't all come from the US, so neither do men in some of our countries. If you are talking about enrolling for selective services in the US then yes that should be universal. Or even better, shouldnt be required of anyone.

ETA:

How can you not opt out of being a father? You can absolutely decide that you don't want to be a dad. That's your choice.

He means once the pregnancy occurs, a mother can opt out via adoption or abortion and it's her decision at that point.

[TerraPrime]

My point is actually that women in war(military) today have that possibility as a right, not as a responsibility. Unlike men.

Do you live in a country where men are drafted and compelled to serve, but women can volunteer?

Because, otherwise, your comment made no sense.

[kelos1]

Very culturally dependent.

We know that some portion of people's prefferences must be biological, you're asserting that some percentage is cultural. I can see how that would be possible so I wont debate it.

I'd assume it's mostly biological, although i've never taken a close look at the studies backing this up. Does anyone have any empirical evidence to the contrary? I know it can be tedious digigng up studies for an online debate but i'll take an honest look at any studies anyone throws up.

I've been lead to believe that a feminist position is that men's(it varies case-by-case but particularily mens and not womens) sexual preferrences are largely or purely cultural.

[Gears of the Beast]

I have a question: Are there any valid tenants of feminism that don't fall under the banner of humanism? I'm assuming the answer is no. Why does wanting gender equality have to be called feminism? It's not like women are the only victims of gender inequality and traditional gender roles and it's certainly not like women are the only ones who want gender equality.

[brook]

Here's a real question devoid of appeals to evo psych:

What position should feminism take toward sex workers?

Towards sex workers? Compassion and lack of judgement. I can not think of any reason it should be otherwise.

I would like to see (and I do think this is the mainstream feminist position, as much as that exists) examination of the reasons some woman do choose sex work so that more can be done to help the situations where it is not a choice at all or only one resulting from desperation.

I have friends who are, or have been, sex workers and I have a hard time seeing either of them as victims, although one could certainly be portrayed that way to someone who didn't know her.

The sex industry as a whole is more complicated, I really can't say what my thoughts on that are.

[Castel]

We don't all come from the US, so neither do men in some of our countries. If you are talking about enrolling for selective services in the US then yes that should be universal. Or even better, shouldnt be required of anyone.

ETA:

He means once the pregnancy occurs, a mother can opt out via adoption or abortion and it's her decision at that point.

Oh. I don't really see any alternative to that. What else can you have? Women being forced to be broodmares for children they don't want?

EDIT: I think simply disowning a child will have to do. You cannot avoid the financial obligation but you don't have to participate.

[TerraPrime]

I have a question: Are there any valid tenants of feminism that don't fall under the banner of humanism? I'm assuming the answer is no. Why does wanting gender equality have to be called feminism? It's not like women are the only victims of gender inequality and traditional gender roles and it's certainly not like women are the only ones who want gender equality.

Because women started to notice the oppression first and did something about it, would be my guess.

Men, from my own experience, are still not accepting many of the basic facts of gender issues, e.g., domestic violence and rape against men are still not something most men are ready to accept, let alone tackle and address.

[Gears of the Beast]

Because women started to notice the oppression first and did something about it, would be my guess.

Men, from my own experience, are still not accepting many of the basic facts of gender issues, e.g., domestic violence and rape against men are still not something most men are ready to accept, let alone tackle and address.

"We discovered the issue first, we're sticking the flag of our gender into it". I don't really think that's true, and if it was it's true it's certainly not a valid reason to attribute gender equality to one gender, that is completely backwards.

[Sci-2]

Towards sex workers? Compassion and lack of judgement. I can not think of any reason it should be otherwise.

I would like to see (and I do think this is the mainstream feminist position, as much as that exists) examination of the reasons some woman do choose sex work so that more can be done to help the situations where it is not a choice at all or only one resulting from desperation.

I have friends who are, or have been, sex workers and I have a hard time seeing either of them as victims, although one could certainly be portrayed that way to someone who didn't know her.

The sex industry as a whole is more complicated, I really can't say what my thoughts on that are.

I've just seen people being very pro sex-work while simultaneously decrying the ways in which women must alter their appearance and personality to fix male ideals.

But isn't the practice of sex work at least somewhat engaged in satisfying the needs of men who are wishing for women to cater to their notions of sexual attractiveness?

[karaddin]

Here's a real question devoid of appeals to evo psych:

What position should feminism take toward sex workers?

That question actually came up on an Australian program on Monday night (it was linked to the festival we went to) and in response to this question primarily featured Brooke Magnanti (author of Secret Diary of a Call Girl) and Germaine Greer, I'll post the transcript for that question in a spoiler tag (since it will be long).

LUCY WELSH: To the panel, but in particular Brooke Magnanti, how are we to feel now about women who work as prostitutes, strippers and even lingerie waitresses? I feel that people are, of course, entitled to their own decisions and if they are comfortable enough in their own skin to work in those areas, then more power to them but there are many people who disagree with that and say that these women can't possibly be feminists. What do you say to that?

BROOKE MAGNANTI: Well, certainly a lot of people said to me specifically I could not be a feminist, which came as a shock to me having been raised to call myself a feminist and by a feminist mother and I did feel like I had to let the label go. But it didn't really change what I thought or how I do. One thing that I think is very important for us to recognise, when we discuss sex work and the issues around sex work, people feel very uncomfortable because of the sex. But the real issues are the work. It's really an issue to do with whether the workers can organise, whether they can improve their own conditions, whether migrant workers who may be coming in to do sex work have access to the same kind of resources that people who are already living here have access to, and to really improving things across the board. It really worries me to see in Europe and I hear also spreading down here this sort of trend of thinking that we can just end demand and everything will be solved overnight, and really we have to acknowledge that sex work is a very broad umbrella. There are people like me who worked in it, there are people who very much more chaotic lives who work in it.

TONY JONES: We should probably explain that you no longer do and I think you did work as a sex worker for one year. Was it, 2003?

BROOKE MAGNANTI: 18 months.

TONY JONES: 18 months.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: So 2003 to 2004 and really, you know, that just goes back to the diversity of the work. For some people it is a stopgap, for some people it is a career, for some people - you know it can be all kinds of things and to really...

TONY JONES: But to go back to the question, how is feminism compatible with prostitution?

BROOKE MAGNANTI: With sex work, Tony.

TONY JONES: Okay.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: Feminism is compatible with sex work in the sense that women should have the ability and the right to self-determination, even if they make decisions that you think are wrong, even if they make decisions that make you uncomfortable; that we have a responsibility even to people who might be taking drugs, or might be having chaotic lives in other ways, to have the compassion to reach out and support them and not alienate them from the social structures of everyday life that the rest of us take for granted.

TONY JONES: Germaine Greer?

GERMAINE GREER: Well, one of the major tenets of modern feminism is the protest against the commoditisation of people. Now, if you're selling sex services with a clearly understood bargain between two people which will be honoured by both sides and which both sides are fully cognisant of what's going on and you're not connected to organised crime or any of the other horrors that beset prostitution, I don't see that it's any different from having to smile for a living. You know, you can't be a waitress and be grumpy. Even though it's work that makes you incredibly grumpy, you've still got to smile and make people think that it's all up and it's all pippy-poo and it's all fun even when it's absolutely not fun at all. Most of us have to sell ourselves in some way or another. In some ways, just selling sex is to sell less of yourself than when you become a company person, when you become identified with your employer, when your employer dictates your very mental processes. We are all involved in selling things that shouldn't be sold at all. It's called capitalism. It's the system. And Eve was the first person to work in it.

TONY JONES: Okay. Just quickly, so from your point of view, feminism and sex work completely compatible?

GERMAINE GREER: Well, I'm not sure that feminism is completely compatible with anything that exists as of now. You don't have to accept the system as it is, but we have prostitutes collectives and they are very outspoken. They are sometimes quite...

TONY JONES: Sex workers.

GERMAINE GREER: ...aggressive.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: Thank you, Tony.

SENIOR MEMBER CHENOWETH: They call themselves prostitutes actually. They’re quite proud of the term.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: But it's about reclaiming that in so many ways, something that’s been used as an epithet against a marginalised group. That I could call myself really all kinds of horrible things but if any of you did I’d leap across the table to eviscerate you.

GERMAINE GREER: Fine. But I could say, for example...

TONY JONES: Let’s hope that doesn’t happen this evening.

GERMAINE GREER: No, but I could say, for example, that if I agree to write an editorial for a newspaper that I despise, I have prostituted myself and writers do it every day.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: Absolutely.

TONY JONES: Janet, what are your thoughts on this?

JANET ALBRECHTSEN: Well, I would like to say for once I don't have an opinion but, no, let me venture one. I think a columnist would say that the surprise is not that so many women take up prostitution, it's that so many women don't, because when you think about how highly paid they are, the flexible hours, you know, for many women - no, I don’t say that flippantly. For many women who don't have the sort of educational opportunities that we might have here, or don't have the job opportunities that come from a good education. It's pretty good work when you think about the money. I mean I've worked as a lawyer. I can tell you, I'm sure, Brooke, your hourly rate was much better than mine. I can tell you I’m sure, Brooke, your hourly rate was much better than mine, and you worked flexible hours. I was, you now, working 70 hours a week.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: My lawyer is through the roof. I often say to him, "Robert, you need to change job so I can afford you."

JANET ALBRECHTSEN: You know and I agree that is compatible with feminism, but only when you are able to make that choice rationally. If you are affected by drugs, if you know, you have what you call a chaotic life, I mean it's very often the case that prostitutes have drug addictions, alcohol addictions, some other form of ...

GERMAINE GREER: Not always.

BROOKE MAGNANTI: So do people who work in kitchens. I mean this is the thing and really we have to recognise that while, to a certain extent because there are people in our society whose choices are restricted and just to go very briefly into my own experience, I was a migrant student to the UK. I could not work more than 15 hours a week. I was 5,000 miles away from home, no money, no access to money and no access to any kind social services and when you think about it that way, you think, "Right, well, what's left?"

JANET ALBRECHTSEN: It’s very rational. No, I’m making that point.

If you are interested in the transcript for the full program (or the video for that matter) its located here

Long story short they both agreed that freely consented sex work is compatible with feminism.

[Knez Snow]

Gender equality is gender egalitarianism.

Feminism is ideology associated with feminist movement. It may or may not incorporate the former, but certanly defninition of feminism is not "gender equality".

ETA:This deffinitions seem pretty celar and straithforward to me. Does anyone dissagrees, and why? What are your definitions?

[karaddin]

Oh. I don't really see any alternative to that. What else can you have? Women being forced to be broodmares for children they don't want?

EDIT: I think simply disowning a child will have to do. You cannot avoid the financial obligation but you don't have to participate.

Yeah as I said in my reply to him before, it's very complicated. I think in certain circumstances being able to avoid the financial obligation should be possible, but you'd want to be very specific about when you allow it and how it's applied.

[Theda Baratheon]

"We discovered the issue first, we're sticking the flag of our gender into it". I don't really think that's true, and if it was it's true it's certainly not a valid reason to attribute gender equality to one gender, that is completely backwards.

I don't particularly find this fair at all. Women were oppressed for thousands of years and then prejudiced against and still are, whereas a lot of issues concerning men can be tackled within the sphere of feminism. perhaps it should be given a new name? who knows? but to criticisize the movement for being called feminism in the first place is a pretty silly thing to do and to dismiss hundreds and thousands of years of women being lesser than men, of COURSE women would discover that issue first.

[Gears of the Beast]

Gender equality is gender egalitarianism.

Feminism is ideology associated with feminist movement. It may or may not incorporate the former, but certanly defninition of feminism is not "gender equality".

Right, it's "let's get gender equality by only concentrating on the issues relating to one gender". Which again, is completely backwards.