[Book and TV Spoilers] The Hidden Story of Rob Stark

[Catherine Storm]

With as much screen time as she's getting, I have a feeling they're going to make her part even bigger after the RW.

NO! I hope not. Her character is so suss. Not like Jeyne W who even though brought Robb's downfall, was stil quite sympathetic. Talisa is obviously hiding something... But I agree to some extent, that they probably have to keep her. The show can't 'kill' the possible Stark-heir storyline can they? This was left open ended in the books, wasn't it? (Theory that a pregnant Jeyne is safe with the Tully's and her sister instead given as a hostage to the Lannisters)

[Songlian]

And where the hell is Grey Wind? The lack of giant direwolf is the thing that strikes me the most as massive character assassination.

Grey Wolf was in this episode, when the North was marching for the funeral. There was plenty of direwolf time with Summer and Shaggy, so maybe they are saving some special effects with Gray Wind for later in the season.

...cause lord knows they'll need it. :(

[lostinwesteros]

@ Harrad # 15...glad you went back to clarify your assessment of Robb's marriage as a huge mistake. I see that as one of the most enormous mistakes in the first few books, tantamount to Ned's telling Cercei he knows about the twincest. (And come to think of it, I'd have to include Sansa's running to Cercei when Ned announced they were going back to Winterfell as another huge mistake as well as a betrayal of her father.) But I'm getting off track...

Robb hasn't been one of my very favorite characters in the book or the series, except that I really admired his battle strategy in that first major confrontation with Tywin, et. al. It's not that I haven't liked him, but I don't think his has deserved as much attention as it's gotten in the TV series. That said, the RW was such a shocker that it's hard to find words for it. It was more of a shocker than Ned's beheading, 'cause we could see that coming, but the RW was a total surprise.

I, too, have really been missing Grey Wind....WHERE has he been? In fact, all of the direwolves have been disappointedly absent of late.

Anyway, yes - from what I understand the RW will take place in the final episode this year.

Good thread!

[Songlian]

With as much screen time as she's getting, I have a feeling they're going to make her part even bigger after the RW.

I might be wrong, but I don't think so. I think Talisa is there just to provide some sympathy for Robb (and his crackpot choice) before the audience. It's not really working, but that's a different issue...

[Harrad]

The late Lord Frey never fought a battle until it was over, so his army was hardly missed. The only way he could influence history was in the betrayal business. He did that well. BTW was it a Frey who captured Brienne/Jamie? If so, the Freys will not have many friends left.

[HopeForSpring]

Tadco26, you said it.

And because that is so right, as much as Talisa annoys people, I feel like they need to show even more of her with him to really pull off the love story but I'm not seeing a ton of chemistry there anymore. What I wonder is whether or Westerlings potential pregnancy theory will be made more explicit... there is no sister...

I do think they are doing a good job of getting people to where they need to be at major milestones, though.

[lostinwesteros]

Oh, and I forgot to mention Talisa...there've been threads in the forum (before TV series showed Talisa) on whether or not Jeyne (who stayed back at Riverrun in the book)was pregnant, and at one point posters went back to Cat's mention of her good childbearing hips, and also

Jaime's assessment of Jeyne way later in the books

.

I thought that by now they would have included the scene where Robb decided to name Jon as his heir, and I'm a little worried that they might leave that out. Then, if Talisa/Jeyne does turn out to be pregnant, it really complicates things, and I think that would skew lots of things, for the worse.

[Cas Stark]

Tadco26, you said it.

And because that is so right, as much as Talisa annoys people, I feel like they need to show even more of her with him to really pull off the love story but I'm not seeing a ton of chemistry there anymore. What I wonder is whether or Westerlings potential pregnancy theory will be made more explicit... there is no sister...

I do think they are doing a good job of getting people to where they need to be at major milestones, though.

Indeed, there is no sister, so there is no one for her to be switched off with, more evidence that the pregnancy theory is crackpot.

[Silverin]

TV Robb makes me a Frey sympathizer compared to the book. TV Robb is older, has the council of his mother before making the decision to marry, does not have his future wife's "honor" as a reason for getting married, and did not fall into that situation after hearing that his brother's had been killed. TV Robb basically just breaks his oath strictly because he feels like it, and everyone else be damned.

I feel the same. I was so deavsted when I was reading the book. Now? I am actually waiting for it to happen, and not just because of the epic scene, but because it means the ends of the ShowRobb character. and his butchered storyline...

It is quite laughable though, that I guess they try really hard making Robb into this macho king on the show since he is not a teenager like in the books, but to me ShowRobb comes of as a way more immature big idiot.

[Frey Pie a la Mode]

Indeed, there is no sister, so there is no one for her to be switched off with, more evidence that the pregnancy theory is crackpot.

Also, didn't Jeyne's mother (who comes off as a real bitch) say that she had made sure that Jeyne wasn't pregnant (gave her moon tea or some such)? I guess it could all be an act to secure the Westerlings safety with the Lannisters (didn't Jeyne's brother get some perk for the family's "services"?), but it seemed to me that there would be no baby Robb.

[ViennaGirl]

I agree with a lot of the people here - I think TV Robb's character has been assassinated. Book Robb's reasons for betraying the Freys were also weak, but at least you see could a tiny bit of 16 year old honor in marrying the enemy daughter he slept with. (Even though that was waaaaaay the wrong thing to do). But TV Robb, an adult, marrying a hot doctor chick just for fun? Ugh. And not even being sorry?

I think it would have been better to have made TV Robb fall for Talisa if that's what D&D wanted to do, but then have Robb emotionally pull away from her as he realizes what he's done and what it's going to cost him. Of course, there's not really enough time to show that...

[Cas Stark]

I agree with a lot of the people here - I think TV Robb's character has been assassinated. Book Robb's reasons for betraying the Freys were also weak, but at least you see could a tiny bit of 16 year old honor in marrying the enemy daughter he slept with. (Even though that was waaaaaay the wrong thing to do). But TV Robb, an adult, marrying a hot doctor chick just for fun? Ugh. And not even being sorry?

I think it would have been better to have made TV Robb fall for Talisa if that's what D&D wanted to do, but then have Robb emotionally pull away from her as he realizes what he's done and what it's going to cost him. Of course, there's not really enough time to show that...

At LEAST she should have been from Westeros and related to a Lannister bannerman so there would be some feasible reason why her honor or safety would be an issue serious enough for him to marry her.

A feminist, go it alone, sexy nurse with no family and no qualms about sex before marriage is not really someone who you need to be marrying RIGHT NOW at the cost of the Frey support.

[David Selig]

The Book plot was equally stupid and implausible IMO. As if a King would ever marry for such a reason during a war he's losing...

[Hedge Lawyer]

Agree totally. For me the Red Wedding wasn't the 'brick to the face' that Ned's execution was - this time the brick was covered in the gore and blood from Ned's execution. It was just nasty and ugly on the page. Really difficult to read for some of the wrong reasons (although mostly for the right ones). I had emotionally disengaged from Robb and Cat. I wasn't dispassionate, I was just so frustrated at the bumbling mess they had made and had a lot of difficulty reading all the chapters after Jaime's release and Robb's shotgun wedding.

I agree. I was so alienated from Cat and Robb that I was basically cheering when the Red Wedding was going down. Not only did Robb sabotage his entire campaign with his marriage to Westerling, but I thought that his entire handling of the Karstark situation was so hamfisted and hypocritical that Cat and Robb basically deserved what was coming. Robb didn't even offer Karstark the chance to take the Black.

Show Robb will deserve it even more, because his marriage to Talisa (IMO the worst character in the show, a modern anachronism, and the only real mistake that I think D&B have made) is even more perplexing than his marriage to Westerling. He threw away the war for no real reason at all.

[Cas Stark]

The Book plot was equally stupid and implausible IMO. As if a King would ever marry for such a reason during a war he's losing...

It was implausible, but compared to the TV plot line it was much more realistic. Have an adult Robb marry an adult Talisa with no ties to Westeros at all "just because" when there is no reason on earth why they couldn't continue an affair is crazy. Much more crazy than a teenager all alone without his mother's counsel--unlike show Robb, who gets her advice and disregards it--doing something in the heat of the moment.

[The Fourth Head]

I would be interested to know if non-book readers find Robb's decision so hard to fathom, or indeed, Talisa so irritating.

The RW casts such a big shadow.

It's important to note the conflict within Robb's heart once he realised he was no longer fighting for his father's life, honour, and freedom. When Joffrey beheaded Ned, in one fell stroke, he poisoned Robb's cause. He was left with nothing more to fight for than blood-revenge, his "kingship" (which he didn't ask for) and peer pressure- none of which are as virtuous a cause as selflessly fighting to save a living person, and that person's honour. Talisa and Cat did a good job of guilt-tripping him for that in season 2, and reminding him that the only virtue left in their cause was the rescuing of his sisters, not ending his blood feud with the Lannisters. Indeed, throughout the books, the entire Stark MO has been about saving people, not killing them out of revenge.

Karstark spelled out this shift in their cause in "stark" words in season 3 episode 2- "aye, I have faith in your cause if your cause is revenge" that is not what Robb set out in the first place for- his cause has become warped, commandeered, and turned around to the extent that he will end up looking like a hypocrite for killing Karstark.

I say all this because during season 2, Talisa starts challenging his motives. Is he killing solidiers he has no issues with personally, for the justice of a dead man? He started to change tack and become willing to negotiate with the Lannisters- to spare Joffrey's head, leave the Lannisters in KL and go home- which is what he stressed to Talisa on the battelfield- "I want to go home" In short, Robb was losing faith in his cause. The whole war had become subverted to the point that it was shaming him, a war that has left him actively punishing his mother for trying to save his sisters, and for what? So in the end, for a moment- he sold out on his "cause". He succumbed to the seductions of little-miss embodiment of virtue, Talisa, because that felt right, and this war no longer did.

IMO, Talisa did a good job of seducing him. I'm willing to bet non-book readers like Talisa. Lets not forget, as a person of desire, she has a lot more going for her as a beautiful florence Nightingale cliche than Jeyne Westerling ever did. I'm not saying I'm sold on her- the timing in season 2 was a hatchet job (if you can be irresponsible so can I?!) but in terms of a salvage job, I think the best thing the writers can do at this point is portray Talisa as a woman worth losing a kingdom over. Show her advising Robb, supporting Robb emotionally, making Robb happy- hell- even have her showing some savvy and suggesting to Robb how he can make amends with the Frey's- that would add a whole new layer to the character! (so long as it was done subtly, and never made clear with hindsight whether it was an innocent suggestion or not- we can't have Robb looking more foolish)

Conversely, we only see Robb these days marching around looking moody and angry. Scenes with Talisa, opening up to her, taking off his king-face, showing his vulnerabilities, his fears for his brothers, his hopes for a future together with her back at Winterfell- this is all needed in the build up to sell the idea that he died for true love, and that he was a 3D character worth mourning over.

Book Robb cried in the dark to Bran over his mum leaving him in charge. A touch of family sentimentality would be true to the character, even though off-piste sentimentality is heavily scorned around here.

[YTDN]

^ I wish I there was a Like button, because this post deserves one. I think you can see that they're trying to do that right now- Talisa has had scenes in all three episodes so far, and each one shows her as a kind-hearted woman with lots of empathy. There's also a scene in some of the trailers of her and Robb having a 'moment', and in interviews Oona Chaplin says that they're trying to show Robb/Talisa as a couple to root for, and as the only couple which is together for love, with no deception, politics or payment. This is all building up to the RW, where I am sure that Talisa is going to die, and I'm pretty sure that Robb is going to have to watch.

Also, I don't want to start a flamewar, but I do think that Robb is getting an unfair rap for doing things 'for love', considering how much sympathy characters like Jaime and Theon get for making equally stupid decisions 'for love'. Robb isn't perfect, just like everyone else in this show.

[ViennaGirl]

This is all building up to the RW, where I am sure that Talisa is going to die, and I'm pretty sure that Robb is going to have to watch.

Hm, even though I don't like TV Robb's decisions, watching him watch Talisa die and then get killed himself will be a bummer.

Also, I don't want to start a flamewar, but I do think that Robb is getting an unfair rap for doing things 'for love', considering how much sympathy characters like Jaime and Theon get for making equally stupid decisions 'for love'. Robb isn't perfect, just like everyone else in this show.

You might be right. People fall all over themselves to pity Theon and Jaime. I think part of the Robb hate is that he could have won the stupid war if he'd just kept his pants on. The good guys could have won! Starks could have stayed alive and kept being awesome! The Robb hate is frustration that a decent guy with tons of potential made a terrible decision with cascading consequences and screwed things up for everyone we like. The Theon/Jaime sympathy is more of wow, I hated that guy, but no one deserves THAT.

[anizzle]

TV Robb is older, has the council of his mother before making the decision to marry, does not have his future wife's "honor" as a reason for getting married, and did not fall into that situation after hearing that his brother's had been killed. TV Robb basically just breaks his oath strictly because he feels like it, and everyone else be damned.

With as much screen time as she's getting, I have a feeling they're going to make her part even bigger after the RW.

...The show can't 'kill' the possible Stark-heir storyline can they? This was left open ended in the books, wasn't it? (Theory that a pregnant Jeyne is safe with the Tully's and her sister instead given as a hostage to the Lannisters)

I'm of the opinion that Talisa is a Lannister spy for Robb to ruin his campaign, either by the end of the Frey alliance or Robb being so distracted by love and sex that he'd become a terrible leader and king. also think that Talisa, after the RW will, reveal that she's pregnant by Robb. What happens after that is up in the air in the TV show. But I do think its possible that if Talisa is on Team Lannister that she will be married off to Ramsay or someone in the North as a way to secure winterfell in leiu of the fakeArya plotline in the books. This has added benefit of their being an actual Stark as the eventual heir of winterfell (hard for nothern lords to be upset about that) who can be indoctrinated as Ramsay/Lannisters wish.

Yes, its crackpot. No argument from me on that.

[Sun]

TV Robb makes me a Frey sympathizer compared to the book. TV Robb is older, has the council of his mother before making the decision to marry, does not have his future wife's "honor" as a reason for getting married, and did not fall into that situation after hearing that his brother's had been killed. TV Robb basically just breaks his oath strictly because he feels like it, and everyone else be damned.

Absolutely right. Agreed! It's a shame really.

It seems like a good bet that they'll do away with fake arya and have her married to Ramsy instead.

I seriously doubt that. For one thing the opticals are all wrong. Talysa is too tall for the actor they cast as Ramsay. For another, she's much older. And even if the Northmen suspend belief on that point, I doubt a Volantene woman would pass for a Stark girl in their eyes. If the show did go the Talysa route, it wouldn't make for much of a ruse.