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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

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Not a change really is it? Theon's POV describe what happened to him and it seems pretty much in line with the show action

It was not live or onscreen in the books though.

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So this has me puzzled, why no mention of the Horn of Winter, aka Horn of Joramun? Isn't that a major plot point missing for the Wildling arc? (I seem to recall Ygritte telling Jon about it on top of the wall and that it was a ruse by Mance to keep their spirits up as they flee south?).

Edited by Sharpes

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TBH I kinda feel bad for Loras, I mean, sure, Sansa isn't exactly his cup of tea (to put it mildly) but you have to figure the reaction to finding out he has to marry Cersei instead is gonna be one of "Wait, can we got back to the original plan? I've just decided I'm totally cool with the marrying Sansa part."

Even with the extreme awkwardness, I sorta felt in his scene with Sansa he was starting to warm up to the idea a little, in a "to be intellectually honest, things could probably go a lot worse" kind of way. Well, guess what... things just got worse.

Since Loras is apparently the only male child of Lord Tyrell in the TV show; he must be aware of the importance of siring more Tyrell children. (perhaps he's experimented enough to know that he can physically have sex with women, just not enjoy it as much as he does sex with men) Sansa, being 15, and the daughter of one of the most fertile noblewomen in Westeros, would give Loras better odds on producing a flock of little Tyrells than would Cersei, who, if she's lucky, might pop out one or two kids before menopause hits. Plus, Sansa doesn't have a psycho brother; and is obviously happy to be marrying Loras, as opposed to Cersei, who would act like she's so far above the Tyrells it's ridiculous.

(of course, Sansa's attitude towards Loras might have changed after she found out he preferred guys; but I imagine, if the marriage had gone ahead, that Margaery and Olenna would have made sure she didn't find that out before the couple was wedded and bedded. And Sansa might have still been happy enough to be headed toward Highgarden that she could have become a very understanding wife...)

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Slightly different take on the Arya/Mel scene. Given Arya's response, I thought Arya connected those colors with the three people from her list she shot "head, breast, balls" with arrows earlier in the episode. Any chance those eye colors match with what Mel's "prophecy"?

Note I am not saying Melisandre actually made any kind of a real prophecy here (I mean how generic can you get with the eye colors and the dramatic we will meet again), but that Arya may have believed she did.

Overall, the entire Mel/Brotherhood interlude reinforced for me my belief that Mel is a fraud when it comes to Rhollor. What I'm still unsure of is whether she is actively aware that she is a fraud or if she is a true believer blind to the fact that she is serving the dark instead of the light. Which makes me think of the basic difference between Littlefinger and Varys summed up so well in this episode.

Really been loving the way that different scenes have been resonating together in the episodes this season.

Mel sure doesn't seem to believe she's a fraud in her POV in ADwD, I can dig what you're saying in a sense though. She's definitely frequently mistaken in the books, but obviously has power. She also seems a bit more independent than Thoros in terms of her relationship to any kind of central church. Both in the books and as verified in this episode, Thoros was on a mission given to him by some sort of institution. Nothing like this is ever really implied with Mel, she's always seemed a bit more on her own.

Another thing that just hit me, the theory that she's actually dead/resurrected and that her beauty and youthful appearance is a glamour has some serious implications for her reaction to meeting Beric if true.

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So this has me puzzled, why no mention of the Horn of Winter, aka Horn of Joramun? Isn't that a major plot point missing for the Wildling arc? (I seem to recall Ygritte telling Jon about it on top of the wall and that it was a ruse by Mance to keep their spirits up as they flee south?).

Probably stuff that will come up more in season 4. They've really avoided going deep into historical stuff until absolutely necessary. I don't believe Aegon and Rhaenys were even named until this season. I also don't believe Sam found a horn with the dragonglass FWIW, interesting implications there too.

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Looking at reactions across different fan boards, it seems to me a lot of things were not immediately understood by viewers (especially non-book viewers) in relation to the King's Landing plot:

1. What Olenna meant when she snapped the quill pen (did it mean her consent to or her refusal of the Loras/Cersei match?).

2. The nature of the bad news Tyrion was giving Sansa.

3. Whose ship Sansa was watching.

4. Whether the ship was sailing away.

5. Whether Littlefinger's offer to Sansa to escape King's Landing was still on the table.

6. Why Littlefinger fed Ros to Joffrey.

These things were all apparent to me (maybe because I'm a book reader and I was anticipating a few of the plot twists from spoilers and speculation based on previews and such), but it seems like they've been the source of a lot of genuine confusion.

On another note, I did like the obvious Ros/Sansa parallel at the end: two naive, young women who were wary of Littlefinger, obtained better offers (Varys' protection/engagement to Loras) and lied to Littlefinger about it (Ros acting as double agent/Sansa concealing her reason for wishing to stay in King's Landing from Littlefinger), whom he ruthlessly screwed over and fed to the Lannisters (one Lannister in particular, in Ros' case) once he discovered their true intentions.

Edited by Newstar

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Looking at reactions across different fan boards, it seems to me a lot of things were not immediately understood by viewers (especially non-book viewers) in relation to the King's Landing plot:

1. What Olenna meant when she snapped the quill pen (did it mean her consent to or her refusal of the Loras/Cersei match?).

2. The nature of the bad news Tyrion was giving Sansa.

3. Whose ship Sansa was watching.

4. Whether the ship was sailing away.

5. Whether Littlefinger's offer to Sansa to escape King's Landing was still on the table.

6. Why Littlefinger fed Ros to Joffrey.

These things were all apparent to me (maybe because I'm a book reader and I was anticipating a few of the plot twists from spoilers and speculation based on previews and such), but it seems like they've been the source of a lot of genuine confusion.

Sorry, but it was all too obvious.

1. She accepted the marriage and snapped the pen with which he was writing the order to put Loras in the King's Guard.

2. That she was to marry him.

3. Littlefinger's His sigil, the mockingbird, was on its sail.

4. It appears so.

5. Not for the foreseeable future, in view of how the story doesn't follow the book.

6. Because Varys recruited her and LF didn't want a spy on his staff.

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Sir Robin. I can't stop looking at your Avatar. I want to pet it. WHAT is it from?

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I could understand the ship thing but everything else is pretty out there. I can't imagine myself enjoying a show without getting those details, so for all the complaining I do about dumbing things down and not being subtle, I suppose they really need to do it.

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speaking of unsullied, I kind of noticed/realized who he was at end of earlier episode when Iwan shot the guys about to rape Theon and just before he shot the last one the guy says "...why you little bastard..." BAM!- Ramsey

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I could understand the ship thing but everything else is pretty out there. I can't imagine myself enjoying a show without getting those details, so for all the complaining I do about dumbing things down and not being subtle, I suppose they really need to do it.

I disagree. I caught all of it, and don't want the show dumbed down any further. It's already pretty stupid with how open the intrigue is, with Varys and LF openly sparring with each other. What about when Cersei openly threatened LF's life with her display of power? No subtlety whatsoever. The Wire had David Simon throw entire books worth of information at you, and you either kept up or didn't. Raising the bar for the audience worked well in that show, and it gave great satisfaction for subsequent viewings.

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It gives me some hope for John Snow that Melisandre maybe learned how Thoros revived Beric.

I see what you did there.

Nice.

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Agreed. As I said above, the talk between Varys and Littlefinger in this episode was the highpoint of the show, period. And it hints towards Littlefinger maybe even being in league with the Great Other. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out that the eunuch and the mockingbird were not just political enemies, but enemies on a global scale as well, If Varys works for the good of the Targaryens/fire, and Littlefinger works for the good of the Great Other/ice, well...That takes everything to a whole new level.

The whole sorcerer in a box scene made it pretty clear that Varys hates the red priests. He state explicitly he wants Melisandre to lose.

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Really missing the Queens Crown scenario, The Knight of the Laughing Tree, and the encounter with the [Tom] Liddle in the cave, and just the Bran story in general. What was the point of Jojen's dream of Jon on the wrong side of the wall? Don't see why that's important at this point.

Where is Ghost? In fact, where are all the still living direwolves? If we can have dragons, why can't we have them?

I really liked TBWB in the books but HBO Thoros and Beric have turned out to be real creeps. I miss Lem and his yellow cloak, and Arya's breaking his nose. In the show, though, I loved that Arya took Mel by the shoulder and turned her around [a real "Hey, you!" moment]. But Mel gives me a total case of the creeps. Don't understand why she's included in so many scenes (that weren't in the book) or why the Theon/Ramsay thing (although the exchange last night was pretty good) is being included. None of that 'belongs' in ASoS and it's preventing the development of the story lines that are in the book.

I really felt for Loras - what a genuinely nice guy.

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(WOO FIRST POST!)

I know she wasn't in the scene, but could it have been Margery who killed Ros?

It may just be coincidence but in the Joffrey/Margery scene a few episodes ago Joffrey was pretty excited about the thought of watching Margery shoot someone.

I know it was only Joffrey shown in the room, but he could have been sitting there for a while.

Also, if anyone knew/found out about Margery's participation in this little 'experiment' they could use it as blackmail or evidence (If she was in some sort of... trial? :P ).

Her involvement in the killing of an 'innocent' woman could have some seriously negative connotations about how the small folk view her.

Anyway, i'm probably reading into this to much, but i'm new to this site and seeing all the forums about the books makes me thinks I REALLY need to read more into EVERYTHING!

Welcome. And while I'm not sure this is the direction they are taking, it is certainly a possibility. Considering the crossbow scene didn't exist in the book, or Ros at all for that matter, it is perfectly plausible that D&D would add it in that Marg was with him when he shot her. He is a psycho (Joffrey), and she will do anything to become queen. Shooting a whore might be out of her comfort zone, but she might play along to appease her king. And it would be interesting when the trial comes up, for sure.

I like you already.

Nice name too, lol.

EDIT: Oh, but I just thought...if Joffrey is dead at the time of the trial...who would know that she was there other than Margery herself? I suppose LF would...

I still like the idea, whether it happens or not.

Edited by Steve Stark

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I disagree. I caught all of it, and don't want the show dumbed down any further. It's already pretty stupid with how open the intrigue is, with Varys and LF openly sparring with each other. What about when Cersei openly threatened LF's life with her display of power? No subtlety whatsoever. The Wire had David Simon throw entire books worth of information at you, and you either kept up or didn't. Raising the bar for the audience worked well in that show, and it gave great satisfaction for subsequent viewings.

This issue being you read the books and are not indicative of the general viewership as I was stating in my original post. I get it that we want it one way, and would much prefer if it.

Also Cersei being forward is not really weird. Littlefinger openly threatening the Queen is weird.

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Littlefinger openly threatening the Queen is weird.

YES! LF or not, threaten a Queen such as Cersei and she'd flat out kill you. It was not LF's style. He is a sly weasel, not an openly brazen man who speaks out against those who would have him killed on the spot. He is a total wuss...but a devious and manipulative one. The only time he ever talks extremely aggressively in the books is when he talks to Sansa, and that's because she's 13 years old and an idiot (sorry Sansa fans, but not really).

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YES! LF or not, threaten a Queen such as Cersei and she'd flat out kill you. It was not LF's style. He is a sly weasel, not an openly brazen man who speaks out against those who would have him killed on the spot. He is a total wuss...but a devious and manipulative one. The only time he ever talks extremely aggressively in the books is when he talks to Sansa, and that's because she's 13 years old and an idiot (sorry Sansa fans, but not really).

Agreed - I think getting whooped by Brandon Stark cured him of that

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Sorry, but it was all too obvious.

1. She accepted the marriage and snapped the pen with which he was writing the order to put Loras in the King's Guard.

2. That she was to marry him.

3. Littlefinger's His sigil, the mockingbird, was on its sail.

4. It appears so.

5. Not for the foreseeable future, in view of how the story doesn't follow the book.

6. Because Varys recruited her and LF didn't want a spy on his staff.

Because I have read the books I was confused (about #3, #4 and #5) because the events on screen did not comport with my memory of the book's events. I didn't recognize the sigil on the boat, and since I believe we are hearing Littlefinger's voice just as (or right before) we see Sansa crying and the ship sailing (I do agree it does obviously seem to be leaving) it was not "obvious" to me that it meant that Littlefinger was on it and abandoning Sansa. Especially since that would be such a major change from the books. ("Wait, doesn't Sansa go with him to the Vale in the books? Wha....?") My unspoiled husband said "Whose boat is that? Is she crying just because she has to marry Tyrion? Or is Loras being shipped away to High Garden"? And I said, "I think that's probably Littlefinger's boat leaving, but I'm really not sure."

This uncertainty about how much, exactly, B&B will follow the text of the books increases my interest in the show as a reader of the books. I am now not sure what will happen in the case of the Cersei-Loras marriage.

Hopefully the RW and PW will still occur on cue and we'll find out whether Lord Tywin "shits bricks of gold" or not.

It's a very tough dilemma for B&B in adapting the books that have such a devoted following. If they stray too much from the books they get yelled at, but if they didn't stray from the books it would be almost impossible to adapt for less than a prohibitive cost. I have only read the books once (I'm actually thinking of re-reading ASoS on vacation before the Season ends because I don't have the events as fresh in my mind as I would have thought) but I am very pleased how B&B are treating the characters and sticking (roughly) to the story from the books. If it was a completely faithful adaptation (say like LoTR) I think it would be pretty boring television show.

Edited by madprofessah

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