[Book Spoilers] Jaime/Brienne

[Chickren]

The trust is certainly there, but I think Jaime's a little bit more into her than she is in the show. Or is he? Perhaps not. I'm not so sure anymore, hehe...

Maybe I'm just reading that she was feeling a little of that AFFC hero-worship as they walked away from the pit. Going by the goodbye scene, yes, it would seem Jaime's a little more into it than she is.

Also, consider how they shot the dinner scene. They've said that they wanted her in a dress that she didn't look ridiculous in, she just felt ridiculous; it's not necessarily how Jaime saw her, though. And then they filmed a close-up shot of him laying his hand over hers. Granted, she was gripping a knife and he was quietly telling her "down, girl", but the image of him "holding her hand" can easily be perceived in multiple ways.

Oh yeah. The way they've directed some of these scenes hasn't helped. More even than the hand holding in that scene was vibe of synchronicity that reeked of old-married-couple chemistry. It's Jaime and Brienne against the world in that scene.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Oh yeah. The way they've directed some of these scenes hasn't helped. More even than the hand holding in that scene was vibe of synchronicity that reeked of old-married-couple chemistry. It's Jaime and Brienne against the world in that scene.

This is clearly a case of reading far too much into things. The point of the scene is to convey that Jaime and Roose are playing a subtle game that Brienne straight up doesn't understand. So the only way for him to convey that to her when she reaches for the knife is to stay her hand, because saying "Put the knife down, woman, we're just having a talk" would be stupid.

[Chickren]

This is clearly a case of reading far too much into things. The point of the scene is to convey that Jaime and Roose are playing a subtle game that Brienne straight up doesn't understand. So the only way for him to convey that to her when she reaches for the knife is to stay her hand, because saying "Put the knife down, woman, we're just having a talk" would be stupid.

This is a case of not reading the string of posts you're replying to.

Everyone knows why Jaime makes her drop the knife, it's that he senses it happening and stops it without even looking at her that we're talking about. And then he does squeeze her hand, leaving it there a bit too long, to tell her he's got this. Again, non-verbally.

[MsLibby]

Like what?

When they were first in the boat he thinks how he could easily kill her or drown her but, instead, he drags her back into the boat saving her life while remaining her printer.

In the TV show they only showed the one instance of him saving her from rape due to his saphires lie. In the book he does it twice, with the second resulting in him being beaten and having his stump kicked.

That's just off the top of my head. Been a while since I read their chapters.

[six]

This is clearly a case of reading far too much into things. The point of the scene is to convey that Jaime and Roose are playing a subtle game that Brienne straight up doesn't understand. So the only way for him to convey that to her when she reaches for the knife is to stay her hand, because saying "Put the knife down, woman, we're just having a talk" would be stupid.

That's reading too little into it though. One of the points of the scenes between Jaime/Brienne in the last couple of episodes, was there to highlight the fact that they've shifted from a reluctant partnership to "you and me, we're in this together now". Like in the

.

[Mulled Wino]

He hasnt acted any differently from Book-Jaime

Also, he's only done two good things in the show, hardly a knight in shining armor

you're missing the point. Jamie is hardly reformed by this point in the book

but he completely appears to be on the show

[Mulled Wino]

When they were first in the boat he thinks how he could easily kill her or drown her but, instead, he drags her back into the boat saving her life while remaining her printer.

In the TV show they only showed the one instance of him saving her from rape due to his saphires lie. In the book he does it twice, with the second resulting in him being beaten and having his stump kicked.

That's just off the top of my head. Been a while since I read their chapters.

are you expecting every single moment from the books to be shown? OF COURSE there's more details in the 1000 pages. They're only showing one side. On the show, it appears the redemption is complete.

[MsLibby]

No, I'm not expecting every moment in the show. Just commenting on the fact that he did more for her in the books than he did in the TV show.

[six]

are you expecting every single moment from the books to be shown? OF COURSE there's more details in the 1000 pages. They're only showing one side. On the show, it appears the redemption is complete.

Can you elaborate? What makes him completely redeemed, especially given the fact that 1- his arc this season was identical to the books 2- as others have pointed out he's done even less that in the books in terms of good things and more bad stuff in the show?

[Katydid]

This is a case of not reading the string of posts you're replying to.

Win. :lol:

Everyone knows why Jaime makes her drop the knife, it's that he senses it happening and stops it without even looking at her that we're talking about. And then he does squeeze her hand, leaving it there a bit too long, to tell her he's got this. Again, non-verbally.

Adds another little log onto the building flame of their development...just the mere fact that he does know, without glancing at her, how she'll react to Roose's threat. And yes, stays her hand, with a nice, lingering touch that is 100% sure to get a fangirl's pulse racing.

[Katydid]

are you expecting every single moment from the books to be shown? OF COURSE there's more details in the 1000 pages. They're only showing one side. On the show, it appears the redemption is complete.

I don't think show!Jaime's redemption is "complete" - - I think they've done an excellent job of illustrating that show!Jaime is following the exact path that book!Jaime is on, more a journey of self-discovery. Brienne's influence on him is immediate in the book, she makes him question himself and his own ideas about honor and oaths, and how people have viewed him for the past 2 decades of his life.

The moment Hoat takes his hand, he ceases to be "the Kingslayer" and has to begin re-inventing himself. In a very short amount of time, he loses his identity, his entire family and his status as the most fearsome swordsman in Westeros. On the show, we're right in the middle of that. He hasn't even gotten back to his family yet, so we still have Cersei's spiteful treatment, Tywin's "you're not my son", Tyrion's anger, and Jaime's reaction to all of that to get to.

[Chickren]

What makes him completely redeemed, especially given the fact that 1- his arc this season was identical to the books 2- as others have pointed out he's done even less that in the books in terms of good things and more bad stuff in the show?

This.

He hasn't been at all given a 'whitewashing' (hate that term) compared to the books.

[Will&Chrismom]

are you expecting every single moment from the books to be shown? OF COURSE there's more details in the 1000 pages. They're only showing one side. On the show, it appears the redemption is complete.

How on earth is his redemption complete? He's still going to return to Cersei and bang her in the very room her son's corpse is lying around. That's not exactly a redemptive act. (And I absolutely think HBO will film that scene--a Jaime/Cersei reunion has been a very long time in coming and it needs to be shown to show Cersei's poisonous influence on Jaime and to begin the process of their separation).

I also take issue with this idea that Cersei has been "whitewashed" and rendered powerless this season. Well, yeah. She IS powerless. She is a woman in a society that believes women are pretty much only good for breeding heirs and looking pretty. Tywin is a terrifying presence in the lives of his kids, period, but nobody feels the sense of powerlessness as Cersei does. She is "only" a woman, she's never had any choice in the direction of her life. She finally gets some freedom when Robert dies (well, thanks to her!) and she becomes Queen Regent, and along comes Tywin to crush that idea and sell her into yet another loveless marriage, simply to squeeze out some more kids.

I don't see how Cersei is any different in the show at this point than she is in the book--temporarily waylaid by her old man, rumors about her relationship with Jaime (that happen to be true), and a society that views women as property--but she is going to regain her sense of self while simultaneously losing her shit as the show progresses, just like in the book.

With regard to Jaime and Brienne: the show is definitely telegraphing some sexual tension, but it's subtle, it's mainly if not entirely on Jaime's side at this point, and he's not remotely aware of it or if he has an inkling, he's not ready to admit it. I think Brienne is just confused by Jaime at this point--he keeps upending her expectations of him. It's important to note that Brienne has a very rigid worldview about people: they are either good or bad, nothing in between. Jaime is entirely shades of gray, and she doesn't know what to make of it. I don't get a sense that she's attracted to him yet; I think rather she is slowly coming to terms with the fact that she can like and admire someone who is full of contradictions. Through Jaime Brienne is developing a more mature understanding of people and the world.

I think, too, that in the book Jaime falls for Brienne first, and that she eventually falls for him, but neither one of them understand their feelings at all. Whether or not a romance has a chance to develop or things turn tragic for them remains to be seen.

[Katydid]

With regard to Jaime and Brienne: the show is definitely telegraphing some sexual tension, but it's subtle, it's mainly if not entirely on Jaime's side at this point, and he's not remotely aware of it or if he has an inkling, he's not ready to admit it. I think Brienne is just confused by Jaime at this point--he keeps upending her expectations of him. It's important to note that Brienne has a very rigid worldview about people: they are either good or bad, nothing in between. Jaime is entirely shades of gray, and she doesn't know what to make of it. I don't get a sense that she's attracted to him yet; I think rather she is slowly coming to terms with the fact that she can like and admire someone who is full of contradictions. Through Jaime Brienne is developing a more mature understanding of people and the world.

I think, too, that in the book Jaime falls for Brienne first, and that she eventually falls for him, but neither one of them understand their feelings at all. Whether or not a romance has a chance to develop or things turn tragic for them remains to be seen.

Great analysis. And this:

"I think Brienne is just confused by Jaime at this point--he keeps upending her expectations of him."

works both ways. Jaime is equally confused by Brienne, and she's left him speechless more than once. His impressed head-tilt after she killed the Stark men and left him with his mouth hanging open was the first instance of it; since then, her performance on the bridge against he himself got his attention, and later when she asked him why she helped her against rape-via-Locke, he had no answer for her.

And the first time she addressed him as "Ser Jaime", he damn near cried. So I think he's got some puzzles to work out in his own head at this point, re: Brienne.

[Castellan]

re "when she asked him why he helped her against rape he had no answer" ........ I thought maybe he said nothing because he was upset that she thought he was such a shit he couldn't possibly have wanted to save her from rape. Its not as if he ever appears to hate her, in fact there are many times he notes his respect for her skill in the book, he is just determined to be in control and get back to Kings Landing on his own, and also paying her back every time she says 'Kingslayer'.

[Chickren]

re "when she asked him why he helped her against rape he had no answer" ........ I thought maybe he said nothing because he was upset that she thought he was such a shit he couldn't possibly have wanted to save her from rape. Its not as if he ever appears to hate her, in fact there are many times he notes his respect for her skill in the book, he is just determined to be in control and get back to Kings Landing on his own, and also paying her back every time she says 'Kingslayer'.

This was my read on what they were going for with the show as well, and I think it was a clever use of the book's more flippant "Jaime? Why did you shout out?" response. I think show!Jaime's lack of response is an opening to his 'true bathhouse confessions' moment because he's bothered that she doesn't think he has any human decency whatsoever.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

you're missing the point. Jamie is hardly reformed by this point in the book

but he completely appears to be on the show

I think that's largely correct, and I think that's a shame. OTOH, I can't really make too big a deal about it because it's mostly just a matter of timing, even though my personal preference is that they've made him too likeable too fast.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Great analysis. And this:

"I think Brienne is just confused by Jaime at this point--he keeps upending her expectations of him."

works both ways. Jaime is equally confused by Brienne, and she's left him speechless more than once. His impressed head-tilt after she killed the Stark men and left him with his mouth hanging open was the first instance of it; since then, her performance on the bridge against he himself got his attention, and later when she asked him why she helped her against rape-via-Locke, he had no answer for her.

And the first time she addressed him as "Ser Jaime", he damn near cried. So I think he's got some puzzles to work out in his own head at this point, re: Brienne.

I don't think Brienne confuses Jaime at all. He knows exactly what she is. It's just that he didn't believe that people like her -- honorable, true, non-hypocritical knights who really do the right thing -- actually existed.

His self-justification for being such a shit is that honor is a joke, a lie, an illusion. And I think the real reason he has concealed the truth behind killing Aerys is because it lets him convince himself that everyone else really is just as dishonorable. It's his little secret that let's him feel better about himself, while letting him look down on others for "misjudging" him. It's his excuse.

That's why him telling her about it is so important. After he tells her, I think it seems petty even to him that he has kept it a secret. Exposure to her honor and treatment of him has forced him to confront some uncomfortable truths about himself, and that's why he's changing.

I hope to hell they don't fuck it up by turning it into some damn romance, though.

[six]

I don't think Brienne confuses Jaime at all. He knows exactly what she is. It's just that he didn't believe that people like her -- honorable, true, non-hypocritical knights who really do the right thing -- actually existed.

That's true. But what confuses him is the fact that he's grown to care about her, that's why he's like "ugly, stupid, wench... oh please, be all right out there". I think that's unexpected to him.

I hope to hell they don't fuck it up by turning it into some damn romance, though.

It's ambiguous in the books too, though.

[Clariana]

Oh yeah. The way they've directed some of these scenes hasn't helped. More even than the hand holding in that scene was vibe of synchronicity that reeked of old-married-couple chemistry. It's Jaime and Brienne against the world in that scene.

Wow! That's exactly what my [unsullied] husband said about that scene, "They're like an old married couple".