[Book Spoilers] Jaime/Brienne

[Peptalk]

Well, both Cersei and Tyrion have been somewhat whitewashed, but I think this is a good thing. It will make it all the more apparent and shocking for the viewers when they reach their 'evil primes' later on.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Whitewashing is a stretch, wouldn't you say? She's still a terrible person, but you can at least see why she is the way she is. Rather than being an incredibly dark shade of grey, she's a medium shade of grey.

She goes from dark shade of grey to medium shade of grey via a process called "whitewashing", or were you under the mistaken notion that whitewashing is only when a character is left completely cleansed and pure as the wind driven snow?

[Pinkie Baelish]

She goes from dark shade of grey to medium shade of grey via a process called "whitewashing", or were you under the mistaken notion that whitewashing is only when a character is left completely cleansed and pure as the wind driven snow?

There's a fine line between lightening and whitewashing. The show doesn't gloss over most of Cersei's sins, only a select few. And you still haven't made an argument as to why this "whitewashing" is bad in Cersei's case.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

So we are in agreement that they did whitewash her? Because I'm not interested in debating the merits of said whitewashing until we first establish it have taken place.

[six]

I don't see why Joffers HAS to die before Jaime arrives. He and Cersei can still have their squicky sex scene when he's on the bier. Jaime arriving earlier could serve two purposes -- show him with Tyrion, to re-establish how close they are before everything goes to hell, and to show Jaime's reaction to Joff's death. He's not going to tell anyone "eh, he was just a squirt in Cersei's cunt" like he thinks in the books, so seeing his relative indifference compared to Cersei's complete breakdown might be effective. Maybe next season they even have a scene where Jaime realizes what a monstrous twat his son is.

The biggest problem with that is Sansa, so maybe Jaime won't arrive until after Joff's death, but the thought crossed my mind.

It would be a mistake, imo. The whole point of Jaime and Brienne getting to KL after the PW, was that Sansa had already left and neither of them could attempt to save her. How do you work that out in the show if Sansa is still around when they get there, and neither Jaime nor Brienne do anything about it? Obviously, the fact she's married to Tyrion proves to be an issue regardless- could she get back to Winterfell while married to Tyrion? I don't know if it could work.

There's a fine line between lightening and whitewashing. The show doesn't gloss over most of Cersei's sins, only a select few. And you still haven't made an argument as to why this "whitewashing" is bad in Cersei's case.

I think the major problem with Cersei is season 3. In the past 2 seasons it was whitewashing, but they left intact most of her less favourable characteristics; she was still a bully, still power hungry, still hated Tyrion, still cheated on Jaime, still manipulative and cruel etc. It was fine, it was a good balance between a human side and the faithful characterisation of the books. This season she's not only whitewashed, she's uninteresting too. She spends her time moping and panicking, is a total victim of the circumstances and worst of all (because for me this is the worst, because it changes all dynamics and storylines) she has a reluctant appreciation of Tyrion. Can you really not see why the whitewashing of Cersei this season is a bad thing?

[Peptalk]

I think the major problem with Cersei is season 3. In the past 2 seasons it was whitewashing, but they left intact most of her less favourable characteristics; she was still a bully, still power hungry, still hated Tyrion, still cheated on Jaime, still manipulative and cruel etc. It was fine, it was a good balance between a human side and the faithful characterisation of the books. This season she's not only whitewashed, she's uninteresting too. She spends her time moping and panicking, is a total victim of the circumstances and worst of all (because for me this is the worst, because it changes all dynamics and storylines) she has a reluctant appreciation of Tyrion. Can you really not see why the whitewashing of Cersei this season is a bad thing?

I'm actually liking this, but I don't view it as an appreciation and approval of one another as much as teaming up against a common foe (Tywin). They have setup a temporary truce because they (Cersei, especially) otherwise are completely alone in King's Landing. Neither could really turn to anyone else to bounce thoughts about the problem with Joffrey or Tywin's marriage plans. A lot of important thoughts Tyrion and Cersei think to themselves in the books would also go lost if they didn't solve it by setting up this truce, and I think that justifies it even if it causes the series to stray from the books.

[six]

I'm actually liking this, but I don't view it as an appreciation and approval of one another as much as teaming up against a common foe (Tywin). They have setup a temporary truce because they (Cersei, especially) otherwise are completely alone in King's Landing. Neither could really turn to anyone else to bounce thoughts about the problem with Joffrey or Tywin's marriage plans. A lot of important thoughts Tyrion and Cersei think to themselves in the books would also go lost if they didn't solve it by setting up this truce, and I think that justifies it even if it causes the series to stray from the books.

Was it necessary though? It adds nothing useful to their characterisation, especially if they're still planning to have Cersei blame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder. In fact, now I wonder how is that even gonna work, now that they don't seem to hate each others' guts.

Also, Cersei really doesn't need any more humanising; next season she's losing a child. I know Joffrey is a monster, but I think most people would be able to relate to that sort of pain regardless. There's a bit in AFFC, I don't remember which chapter is it but I think it's Tommen/Margaery's wedding, and Cersei thinks (paraphrasing) that nothing or no one ever made her as happy and made her feel as complete as when she held Joffrey for the first time. Now, book!Cersei is way less sympathetic than her show counterpart, but that part was heartbreaking. Unless some have a heart like a shriveled raisin, they're definitely going to sympathise with her at that point. Why making her so mild and rob her of her duality now?

I can't with show!Cersei. Seriously.

[Peptalk]

I think her being humanised this way will make it all the more captivating to follow her transformation as she grows increasingly mad and paraonid in the upcoming seasons. If they had started out with her more cruel and all that jazz I think it would have a lesser impact when she actually does start to change, as the difference wouldn't be as noticeable. I agree she's been too soft this season and that her changing should've been more apparent already, but in general I (personally) think it's been a smart move to soften her.

[Joyful Union]

Was it necessary though? It adds nothing useful to their characterisation, especially if they're still planning to have Cersei blame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder. In fact, now I wonder how is that even gonna work, now that they don't seem to hate each others' guts.

In the books, Cersei and Tyrion did occasionally get along. I believe they even danced with joy together when they were brought the news that Renly and Stannis were fighting. Its just momentary, Cersei still hates Tyrion's guts, and vice versa.

[Chickren]

It would be a mistake, imo. The whole point of Jaime and Brienne getting to KL after the PW, was that Sansa had already left and neither of them could attempt to save her. How do you work that out in the show if Sansa is still around when they get there, and neither Jaime nor Brienne do anything about it? Obviously, the fact she's married to Tyrion proves to be an issue regardless- could she get back to Winterfell while married to Tyrion? I don't know if it could work.

They can't be present for the PW. There's the Sansa issue, which is massive. There's the issue that Jaime could see for himself how many people had access to Joffrey's cup (as one of the other Kingsguard point out) and would therefore look like a jerk for not interfering with Tyrion's trial. Tyrion doesn't even know Jaime's in KL until Jaime releases him. Cersei and Jaime's initial reunion would go much more smoothly without her insisting he kill Tyrion, meaning it would take longer for them to break up, which would do nothing for his character development. There are a lot of reasons Jaime and Brienne need to arrive post-PW.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't really think the whitewashing of Cersei is a bad thing, she was a CARTOON VILLAIN in the books.

However, the whitewashing of Tyrion is a MAJOR problem. He's fucking awful in the TV show because he's like a fucking Ned type character and Tyrion is NOT NICE AND GOOD AND HONOURABLE tyrion is really quite nasty and cruel and bitter most of the time.

[six]

In the books, Cersei and Tyrion did occasionally get along. I believe they even danced with joy together when they were brought the news that Renly and Stannis were fighting. Its just momentary, Cersei still hates Tyrion's guts, and vice versa.

Trouble is, I don't think it comes across that well in the show that they still hate each other.

They can't be present for the PW. There's the Sansa issue, which is massive. There's the issue that Jaime could see for himself how many people had access to Joffrey's cup (as one of the other Kingsguard point out) and would therefore look like a jerk for not interfering with Tyrion's trial. Tyrion doesn't even know Jaime's in KL until Jaime releases him. Cersei and Jaime's initial reunion would go much more smoothly without her insisting he kill Tyrion, meaning it would take longer for them to break up, which would do nothing for his character development. There are a lot of reasons Jaime and Brienne need to arrive post-PW.

Absolutely, I agree. But I think they'll be back before the PW regardless of the fact it wouldn't make sense... Unless the PW is in episode 10 or they add some scenes that weren't in the books before Jaime gets to KL. I hope I'm wrong though. From a narrative standpoint, getting back after the PW not only makes for a better and coherent story, but it was also more exciting because so much had happened while Jaime was away. If he got back now it would be different, but not the same chaotic different that he finds post PW. It would be a big mistake to have him back before.

I don't really think the whitewashing of Cersei is a bad thing, she was a CARTOON VILLAIN in the books.

However, the whitewashing of Tyrion is a MAJOR problem. He's fucking awful in the TV show because he's like a fucking Ned type character and Tyrion is NOT NICE AND GOOD AND HONOURABLE tyrion is really quite nasty and cruel and bitter most of the time.

I really disagree. I don't understand the "book Cersei is a cartoon character" many go on about, either. Why is she a cartoon-like character? Because she's not likeable or very sympathetic? Not all characters need to be shades of gray. They can be various shade on black, and still incredibly entertaining.

Also Tyrion and Cersei are different characters with a different function in the books; Tyrion is more interesting and complex in the books, but he's still meant to be liked. His arc does the opposite of Jaime's, he becomes a much darker character as we get to see some of the things he does, but he's still meant to be a protagonist- he's a bit like Walt in Breaking Bad. We're not meant to root for Cersei.

[Theda Baratheon]

ummm no, because of the prophecy about a younger beautiful queen she is basically the evil queen from snow white, ie, cartoon villain. there are loads of reasons for cersei to be paranoid, nasty, abhorrent rather than to have some dumb prophecy.

i think because up until now she's been quite regal, cold and nasty behind the scenes will make her descent into madness and just giving women to qyburn all the more creepy and WTF. also, pinkie baelish gave a nice list of all the horrible thins theyve still had cersei do in the show.

whereas tyrion has been WHITE WASHED SO MUCH IT'S ACTUALLY RIDICULOUS. i don't root for tyrion at all. you might, i don't. not at all. bard soup, antler men, unleashing the clansmen, his awful attitude towards women, hitting shae, not actually treating her brilliantly, threatning to beat and rape tomnen, and i know this hasn't happened yet in the show but how fucking PATHETIC AND AWFUL he becomes in the later books, raping a sex slave, more awful attitude towards women, how fucking tiresome he becomes.

yeh, he's NOT A NICE person, he's NOT honourable, he's NOT good. i don't think he's evil either, he's very grey, very complex, but i DONT root for him, and not everyone does. it's written in the way that we should which is kinda disturbing to be sometimes as it helps book fans of his whitewash his actions too, but in the show he is just TOO good.

im holding out hope that it's because it will make his downward spiral even more horrible and amazing to watch, but if they continue to portray him as a poor downtrodden underdog hero who is so intelligent and so lovely and just a tragic character really i really be so pissed off

[Woman of War]

-Cersei orders Sansa's direwolf to be killed

-Cersei is complicit in the attempted murder of Bran

-Cersei cheats on Jaime with Lancel, despite Jaime's faithfulness

-Cersei tears up Robert's will and seizes Ned

-Cersei fires Ser Barristan to stack the court with Lannister stooges

-Cersei cruelly insults Tyrion and blames him for their mothers' deaths

-Cersei threatens Littlefinger with death over insinuations that he knew about her secret

-Cersei has Ros beaten and threatens her with torture and an unspeakably painful death

-Cersei continues to mentally torment Sansa throughout her stay in KL, and doesn't spare her from Joffrey's beating

-Cersei is clearly intimidated by the younger and more beautiful Margaery for no rational reason

-Cersei gloats about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, and doesn't object to the idea of Sansa being put in the same position as her

Yep, she's Mother Teresa alright. And frankly, making her the product of her environment makes her much more interesting than book Cersei, who's just rotten to the core. Joffrey ordering Robert's bastards dead is a change I'm fine with, as it's perfectly in line with his character and signifies the theme of the monster outgrowing his parents.

Agree

I think the writers have done a very subtle job in making Cersei even more interesting. Seeing her failure as mother automatically raises the question of what she could have done better instead of the flat statement "Joffrey is a monster, kill him off!" Joffrey may be a monster but he is as well someone's child, the child of a living, breathing, desperate yet not knowing how desperate, woman. Cersei became as real by HBO for me as she, in the books, has become at the moment of her walk of shame. That "whitewashing" was a good job.

And Coster-Waldau is outstanding!

[Theda Baratheon]

Agree

I think the writers have done a very subtle job in making Cersei even more interesting. Seeing her failure as mother automatically raises the question of what she could have done better instead of the flat statement "Joffrey is a monster, kill him off!" Joffrey may be a monster but he is as well someone's child, the child of a living, breathing, desperate yet not knowing how desperate, woman. Cersei became as real by HBO for me as she, in the books, has become at the moment of her walk of shame. That "whitewashing" was a good job.

And Coster-Waldau is outstanding!

Yeah, I agree with all of this.

[AliKat]

I think the Jaime/Brienne storyline is my favorite this season. I loved the subtle changes between the two of them over the season. I think the actors have incredible chemistry with each other and make every look/word work perfectly. If Nikolaj doesn't win an emmy or golden globe for the bath scene - its a crime! I missed some of the lines from the books but I did like him saying 'sorry about the sapphires'. So snarky and typical Jaime.

[Peptalk]

I think the Jaime/Brienne storyline is my favorite this season. I loved the subtle changes between the two of them over the season. I think the actors have incredible chemistry with each other and make every look/word work perfectly. If Nikolaj doesn't win an emmy or golden globe for the bath scene - its a crime! I missed some of the lines from the books but I did like him saying 'sorry about the sapphires'. So snarky and typical Jaime.

Me too! I have missed that Jaime :D

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

ummm no, because of the prophecy about a younger beautiful queen she is basically the evil queen from snow white, ie, cartoon villain. there are loads of reasons for cersei to be paranoid, nasty, abhorrent rather than to have some dumb prophecy.

Honestly I don't think she even remembers the prophecy or gives it much credit until after the PW. We don't get a Cersei POV in the first three books so it's impossible to know for sure but I'm pretty sure that the horror of the PW makes her all of a sudden remember that terrible thought of the tent and Maggy the Frog etc.

Kinda like the attack in KL makes Ned remember his promise to Lyanna after "so many years"

i think because up until now she's been quite regal, cold and nasty behind the scenes will make her descent into madness and just giving women to qyburn all the more creepy and WTF. also, pinkie baelish gave a nice list of all the horrible thins theyve still had cersei do in the show.

Again, I agree, in the books as well she holds her shit together until the PW. That's when the wheels fall off.

whereas tyrion has been WHITE WASHED SO MUCH IT'S ACTUALLY RIDICULOUS. i don't root for tyrion at all. you might, i don't. not at all. bard soup, antler men, unleashing the clansmen, his awful attitude towards women, hitting shae, not actually treating her brilliantly, threatning to beat and rape tomnen, and i know this hasn't happened yet in the show but how fucking PATHETIC AND AWFUL he becomes in the later books, raping a sex slave, more awful attitude towards women, how fucking tiresome he becomes.

yeh, he's NOT A NICE person, he's NOT honourable, he's NOT good. i don't think he's evil either, he's very grey, very complex, but i DONT root for him, and not everyone does. it's written in the way that we should which is kinda disturbing to be sometimes as it helps book fans of his whitewash his actions too, but in the show he is just TOO good.

im holding out hope that it's because it will make his downward spiral even more horrible and amazing to watch, but if they continue to portray him as a poor downtrodden underdog hero who is so intelligent and so lovely and just a tragic character really i really be so pissed off

I have some unsullied family members that disagree with you, I mean the first scene is him sleeping with a bunch of whores, then he tries to kill Bran Stark after his brother fails to kill him(can't argue against unsullied yet...), he gives Jon Snow some decent advice the first few episodes helps out Bran. Which shows he's got a soft side for cripples, bastards and broken things.

He forces his cousin Lancel to spy on his sister, then tells him that his brother is going to kill him when he returns and finds out that he's been sleeping with Cersei.

Then kiss thousands of people with wildphyre. I can't imagine how much more these unsullied people I'm related to like him in the next couple seasons.

[Chickren]

I think the Jaime/Brienne storyline is my favorite this season. I loved the subtle changes between the two of them over the season. I think the actors have incredible chemistry with each other and make every look/word work perfectly. If Nikolaj doesn't win an emmy or golden globe for the bath scene - its a crime! I missed some of the lines from the books but I did like him saying 'sorry about the sapphires'. So snarky and typical Jaime.

I thought that was a really successful "Jaime's back" moment. It was set up perfectly when he didn't respond to Locke's taunts when he was leaving Harrenhal.

[HopeForSpring]

Their dynamic is so refreshing. I actively don't ship them. I like that they are comrades, peers. I'm so glad that the actors have chemistry, too.

In the books and in the show they aren't comic relief, but "not backstabby" relief... until, of course they aren't which is why I am so anxious to see how TWoW resolves.

Who would have predicted that Jaime Lannister wasn't going to be totally evil all the way down to the bone when in practically our first scene he pushes a kid out the window?

For some reason I've started equating him with Sawyer from Lost in a way... maybe it is the blond beardyness.