[Book Spoilers] Jaime/Brienne

[Lady Phedre]

i wish something would of happend to lockes ear...

I was hoping to see that too.....oh man

[Currawong]

The ear part fitted in with Vargo Hoat, but not with Locke. Hoat is almost comic at times, which means the book scene with the bear plays out in a more humorous fashion, but Locke is altogether a much nastier character and it just wouldn't have worked. But I'm wondering whether Brienne will meet up with Locke somewhere on her AFFC travels in Season 4 or 5, instead of Timeon and Shagwell. In the book, she thinks about Jaime when she kills both of them, (even thinking that one was for Jaime when she first cuts off Timeon's hand) and it would fit the context of the show for her to encounter and kill Locke instead. Having her say 'That's for Jaime and his hand!' as she kills him would be appropriate for both Book and TV Brienne, and would be much more satisfying!

[Castellan]

I can't agree Locke is nastier than Vargo, he's just a more straighforward nasty person whereas Vargo is more bizarre. After all, Vargo lops off hands and feet whenever he can!

I also wish she'd bitten Locke's ear.

I think on the basis of the TV show, so far its pretty much a buddy relationship whereas in the book there are already signs of something else.

[Khal Porno]

I'm really disappointed in this thread, I thought it was going to be a slash fiction story.

[Peptalk]

I can't agree Locke is nastier than Vargo, he's just a more straighforward nasty person whereas Vargo is more bizarre. After all, Vargo lops off hands and feet whenever he can!

I also wish she'd bitten Locke's ear.

I think on the basis of the TV show, so far its pretty much a buddy relationship whereas in the book there are already signs of something else.

Really? I think, on Briennes part, yes, but not on Jaime's. I think they're playing up his romantic feelings for her in the TV show.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I really disagree. I don't understand the "book Cersei is a cartoon character" many go on about, either. Why is she a cartoon-like character? Because she's not likeable or very sympathetic? Not all characters need to be shades of gray. They can be various shade on black, and still incredibly entertaining.

Also Tyrion and Cersei are different characters with a different function in the books; Tyrion is more interesting and complex in the books, but he's still meant to be liked. His arc does the opposite of Jaime's, he becomes a much darker character as we get to see some of the things he does, but he's still meant to be a protagonist- he's a bit like Walt in Breaking Bad. We're not meant to root for Cersei.

The whole bit about Cersei ordering Qyburn to rip out Tommen's whipping boy's tongue if Tommen screamed or cried cemented her as a comic villain in my eyes. While it was made clear that Tyrion's threat to beat and rape Tommen was him playing up to the image of the monster that Cersei saw him as, there's no indication in Cersei's chapter that she had the same intentions.

Agree on the Tyrion point. I think his descent into darkness would be a great parallel to Jaime's redemption to showcase on TV, and not showing his dark side really dilutes the complexity of the character. Oh, and completely agree on the comparison to Walter White. Both men have a totally fascinating descent into hell, and I think neither characters are either good or bad, but have a large capacity for doing good and evil acts.

[Chickren]

I think on the basis of the TV show, so far its pretty much a buddy relationship whereas in the book there are already signs of something else.

I read it totally the opposite. To me the show is reading way, way more romantic than at this point in the books.

I mean, Brienne's into him physically at this point in the books, but nowhere near luhrve--that starts after he gives her Oathkeeper. And it's difficult to pin down Jaime in the books at this point. Judging by actions, he's ready to put a ring on it. Judging by what's going on in his head, you'd think *maybe* if Cersei didn't exist and he was really bored, he'd tap that.

But in the show, they're both at full on trust and emotional connection by the dinner with Roose at Harrenhal. And the actors have too much sexual chemistry for anyone to buy that physical attraction is an obstacle. There's a reason half the reviews you read wonder when they're going to make-out already.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

As mentioned before in this thread, I loved how Brienne did not hesitate to climb on Jaime's back to get out of the pit.

[Peptalk]

I read it totally the opposite. To me the show is reading way, way more romantic than at this point in the books.

I mean, Brienne's into him physically at this point in the books, but nowhere near luhrve--that starts after he gives her Oathkeeper. And it's difficult to pin down Jaime in the books at this point. Judging by actions, he's ready to put a ring on it. Judging by what's going on in his head, you'd think *maybe* if Cersei didn't exist and he was really bored, he'd tap that.

But in the show, they're both at full on trust and emotional connection by the dinner with Roose at Harrenhal. And the actors have too much sexual chemistry for anyone to buy that physical attraction is an obstacle. There's a reason half the reviews you read wonder when they're going to make-out already.

The trust is certainly there, but I think Jaime's a little bit more into her than she is in the show. Or is he? Perhaps not. I'm not so sure anymore, hehe...

[six]

there are loads of reasons for cersei to be paranoid, nasty, abhorrent rather than to have some dumb prophecy.

i think because up until now she's been quite regal, cold and nasty behind the scenes will make her descent into madness and just giving women to qyburn all the more creepy and WTF. also, pinkie baelish gave a nice list of all the horrible thins theyve still had cersei do in the show.

yeh, he's NOT A NICE person, he's NOT honourable, he's NOT good. i don't think he's evil either, he's very grey, very complex, but i DONT root for him, and not everyone does. it's written in the way that we should which is kinda disturbing to be sometimes as it helps book fans of his whitewash his actions too, but in the show he is just TOO good.

BIB 1: Yes, I'd give you that. But I don't think that makes Cersei cartoonish per se, it's the whole prophecies element that's bit off. But then again we have dragons, zombie-like creatures, people warging in animals' bodies... It's part of the books and I take it as it is, it doesn't make Cersei a cartoon character because of it.

BIB 2: Yes, this list:

-Cersei orders Sansa's direwolf to be killed

-Cersei is complicit in the attempted murder of Bran

-Cersei cheats on Jaime with Lancel, despite Jaime's faithfulness

-Cersei tears up Robert's will and seizes Ned

-Cersei fires Ser Barristan to stack the court with Lannister stooges

-Cersei cruelly insults Tyrion and blames him for their mothers' deaths

-Cersei threatens Littlefinger with death over insinuations that he knew about her secret

-Cersei has Ros beaten and threatens her with torture and an unspeakably painful death

-Cersei continues to mentally torment Sansa throughout her stay in KL, and doesn't spare her from Joffrey's beating

-Cersei is clearly intimidated by the younger and more beautiful Margaery for no rational reason

-Cersei gloats about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, and doesn't object to the idea of Sansa being put in the same position as her

9 out of 11 of these questionable/cruel actions were carried between season 1 and 2. The last 2, which are nowhere near as bad, were in this season. I would also argue that Cersei wondering who's gonna tell Sansa about the marriage was out of character, since their last known interaction consisted of Cersei tormenting Sansa over the fact she was going to be raped. In the books they have that excellent scene of Cersei dragging Sansa to her wedding, which they've conveniently left out.

I'm not throwing the baby with the bathwater here; I think in season 1 and 2 they did a fantastic job in finding a way to portray Cersei's cruelty juxtaposed to a more human and fallible side. This season her cruelty is based on her past acts, it's like she's on a redemption arc too. I'm exaggerating here obviously, but they're whitewashing her to the extreme this season. I don't see how can anyone deny that.

BIB 3: That's fine, we don't all root for the same characters. I was just pointing out what Tyrion's function as a character is. Not everyone might root for him, but he's a protagonist (if not the protagonist in the books, alongside Jon and Dany) and we're meant to go on this dark journey with him. Cersei is a villain though, and not all characters are meant to be written as redeemable or sympathetic.

Their dynamic is so refreshing. I actively don't ship them. I like that they are comrades, peers. I'm so glad that the actors have chemistry, too.

Tbh, while I agree with you and I like the fact that they're a team and have a relationship as equals, I don't see why one thing should exclude the other, especially given that while show!Brienne is more attractive than book!Brienne, she's still quite masculine and made up to look unattractive. What would be actually refreshing would be two very physically handsome people of different gender being just friends, but it's not the case with Jaime and Brienne. Everyone expects Jaime not to feel anything more than friendship for Brienne because she's not classically beautiful, so the "just friends" tag is the opposite of refreshing in this case.

Also, in the books it's complicated, provided they follow the books it's a different kind of bond than just comrades.

I think on the basis of the TV show, so far its pretty much a buddy relationship whereas in the book there are already signs of something else.

It's funny the way it comes across differently for everyone. In SoS Jaime is the definition of a human contradiction, being like "This wench, she's ugly and stupid and stubborn, but brave, no go away, you mean nothing to me" only to spend half his time trying to save her and the remaining part trying to make her change her mind about him. It was always a bit ambiguous, but it wasn't until AFFC, where Brienne can't stop going on about him and Jaime starts going around punching her ex-betrothals who dare to be disrespectful, that I thought they got under each others' skin more than they were willing to admit. In the show he's already treating her like a rare unicorn-like-creature he has to protect, and he's not even subtle about it :laugh:

The whole bit about Cersei ordering Qyburn to rip out Tommen's whipping boy's tongue if Tommen screamed or cried cemented her as a comic villain in my eyes. While it was made clear that Tyrion's threat to beat and rape Tommen was him playing up to the image of the monster that Cersei saw him as, there's no indication in Cersei's chapter that she had the same intentions.

Agree on the Tyrion point. I think his descent into darkness would be a great parallel to Jaime's redemption to showcase on TV, and not showing his dark side really dilutes the complexity of the character. Oh, and completely agree on the comparison to Walter White. Both men have a totally fascinating descent into hell, and I think neither characters are either good or bad, but have a large capacity for doing good and evil acts.

Both Tyrion and Cersei should be way darker at this point, but I think Tyrion's arc is going to work anyway, exactly because following a character going to the dark side is compelling, so yeah not showing Tyrion's grey side takes away some of his complexity which is a shame, but I think it would still work anyway. Cersei on the other side shouldn't be on a redemption arc or going from good to bad. She loses her mind, which is a completely different arc. At this point she should continue with her behaviour of the past two season, not regress to a woobie.

[Clariana]

I'm really disappointed in this thread, I thought it was going to be a slash fiction story.

You really need to go to FF Net... In fact, I recommend you go to FF Net if that is what you're looking for.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't disagree with this. In fact, I think nothing is ever going to make up for the wrong he did. That doesn't mean he can't try to act like a completely different man from now. And no, that doesn't erase his past actions, but it puts him on a path where he consciously makes different choices, and it's making those choices consistently that can eventually redeem him. I doubt anyone has forgotten what he did to Bran (and they shouldn't), I see people mentioning it all the time.

As for whitewashing, I see none. Everything he's done this season was in the book too. He hasn't had made up scenes where he's nicer like Cersei and Tyrion. He also didn't really owe a debt to Brienne in the show...

Perhaps its because they didnt try to figure out how to effectively communicate jamiesinneer struggle which is still going on at this point. He was still a selfish ahole

show jamies has changed into the knight in shining armor.

[Mulled Wino]

Cersei shouldnt be going from good to bad and she doesnt lose her mind. She's corrupted by greed and power. She was cruel and crazy from childhood. What happens to her is just a natural release as the checks and balances are removed from her political life and lust for power.

I get none of that, or at least very little from show cersei

[six]

Perhaps its because they didnt try to figure out how to effectively communicate jamiesinneer struggle which is still going on at this point. He was still a selfish ahole

show jamies has changed into the knight in shining armor.

By this point Jaime in the books was still thinking like a selfish asshole, but acting quite selflessly regardless of what he thought. How would you convey that on screen though? I don't think anyone sees him as a knight in shining armour, but he's proved that his terrible actions don't define the man he has the potential to be.

Cersei shouldnt be going from good to bad and she doesnt lose her mind. She's corrupted by greed and power. She was cruel and crazy from childhood. What happens to her is just a natural release as the checks and balances are removed from her political life and lust for power.

I get none of that, or at least very little from show cersei

She was always a bit unhinged, and the last couple of seasons showed it a little. Having a prostitute beaten up to get one over your brother and tormenting a young girl over the fact she'll be raped, are not signs of someone being particularly balanced. But she does lose her mind more in the books, imo. It gets progressively worse. I do agree it doesn't come across nowhere near as it should in the show, unless moping around can be considered a sign of being corrupted by greed and power.

[The Lady Lannister]

Thanks for pointing out that the episode finished with the Rains of Castamere. It changed the ending completely for me with all that menace and foreshadowing. (I read the books, but only just started watching the show.)

"Misplaced northern thrift" :drunk:

[Joyful Union]

Perhaps its because they didnt try to figure out how to effectively communicate jamiesinneer struggle which is still going on at this point. He was still a selfish ahole

show jamies has changed into the knight in shining armor.

He hasnt acted any differently from Book-Jaime

Also, he's only done two good things in the show, hardly a knight in shining armor

[Katydid]

But in the show, they're both at full on trust and emotional connection by the dinner with Roose at Harrenhal. And the actors have too much sexual chemistry for anyone to buy that physical attraction is an obstacle. There's a reason half the reviews you read wonder when they're going to make-out already.

Agreed.

Also, consider how they shot the dinner scene. They've said that they wanted her in a dress that she didn't look ridiculous in, she just felt ridiculous; it's not necessarily how Jaime saw her, though. And then they filmed a close-up shot of him laying his hand over hers. Granted, she was gripping a knife and he was quietly telling her "down, girl", but the image of him "holding her hand" can easily be perceived in multiple ways.

Also, the way they had her holding him in the bath was incredibly suggestive. It's been compared to a reverse Rhett/Scarlett image, and it's also been mentioned that the end of the shot "dragged on" for a full second or two longer than necessary.

I didn't mind. :D

[MsLibby]

As mentioned before in this thread, I loved how Brienne did not hesitate to climb on Jaime's back to get out of the pit.

That really struck me. No hesitation. A true soldier, acting quickly and confidently. Then, again without hesitation, yells her own order for them to "hold her legs" and just throws herself down to help reach Jaime. It was a very dramatic scene.

[MsLibby]

He hasnt acted any differently from Book-Jaime

Also, he's only done two good things in the show, hardly a knight in shining armor

Compard to his actions in the book ya. Book Jaime did far more to help Brienne than what we've seen on TV.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Compard to his actions in the book ya. Book Jaime did far more to help Brienne than what we've seen on TV.

Like what?