[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

As much as I hate Talisa (SO much), to me, the cancer at the heart of this storyline is their inexplicable decision not to have Robb and Cat get the news of Bran and Rickon's death. It just makes no sense at any level. What were they thinking? It takes out so much of the motivation for Cat and Robb's actions and robbs (heh) the story of its tragic irony. It just kills me. I also so miss the scene between Cat and Brienne after Cat gets the news, even still. Would have been amazing.

ETA: Also, the usual excuses don't apply. No budget issues. No time issues. It would have been so simple. Instead, they went out of their way with the poisoning of the ravens (an additional scene) to show that the news wouldn't get out. If I had one question I would ask why they did this.

If I had to guess, they did this because they cut Reek/Ramsay out of season 2. So they had to give Ramsay a reason to torture Theon (find out where the Stark boys were). In the books Ramsay tortures Theon because Theon treats him like dirt for much of his stay at Winterfell, so to cut Theon down to size makes sense. Without that they had to invent another motivation for Ramsay, and in order for that there had to be doubt abut the whereabouts of the boys.

All in all it was a TERRIBLE choice. It messed up the Theon/Ramsay/timeline, it messed up the motivations of Robb and Cat. They should have found another way.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

So we have 3 major northern lords. Karstark, bolton and stark. Bolton and karstark have already betrayed him. How surprising is it really for ulhim to be betrayed by the freys?

Whoever said it was exactly right. The RW in the show will play as "The North betrays the Starks", rather the "Bolton and Frey betrays the North", and that sucks.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

This is precisely why you cannot rightfully compare a scene or story arc from a book to a television show. I will never understand the book readers who do this. Are you masochists??? Please understand that books are so wonderful because they can flesh out characters and stories in ways that television and film never can. TV and film are constrained by studio budgets and the physical limitations of the real world. Books are only limited by the human imagination so they can go places far greater.

To watch this adaptation, you MUST see the show as a seperate entity. You must enjoy it for its own merits and stop comparing everything to the books. It's been written about in so many ways in so many threads yet it never sticks with some people. The show is different than the books. You cannot compare the two, You just cannot. A television show or a movie will NEVER be the same as the book its inspired by for all the reasons I've stated above.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Look, I don't need a lecture on the necessity for change when adapting from one medium to another.

Of course changes have to be made.

That's doesn't mean I can't qustion some of the decision made while adapting. You know, there is such a thing as a good adaptation versus a poor executed adaptation. You can't defend it by just saying "well it's an adaptation".

I believe the decision they made was a poor one, and I don't buy the budget constraints. CUT SOMETHING ELSE. If this scene was the reason you wanted to do the adaptation to begin with. THEN YOU SACRIFICE OTHER THINGS TO MAKE THIS ONE WORK.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Look, I don't need a lecture on the necessity for change when adapting from one medium to another.

Of course changes have to be made.

That's doesn't mean I can't qustion some of the decision made while adapting. You know, there is such a thing as a good adaptation versus a poor executed adaptation. You can't defend it by just saying "well it's an adaptation".

I believe the decision they made was a poor one, and I don't buy the budget constraints. CUT SOMETHING ELSE. If this scene was the reason you wanted to do the adaptation to begin with. THEN YOU SACRIFICE OTHER THINGS TO MAKE THIS ONE WORK.

You know mate, if they cut something else to make room for the northern lords, then other people would have complained that their favourite minor characters had been cut.

Imagine theiìy decided to cut the BwB, which is made by around ten very minor characters and two minor characters, to make room for Wyman Manderly, another minor northen lord and ten very minor northern lords. Would have that worked? Absolutely not.

Now, imagine they cut Tormund and Orell to make room to make room for Manderly and whoever you prefer. Would have that worked? Absolutely not.

Imagine they cut Ramsay. People were already freaking out last year because of the absence of Ramsay in Winterfell. Could they cut him this year? No.

Imagine they cut the Reeds, and leave Osha stand in for them. Again, people were going crazy because of their absence last season. "WTF?!? No Reeds? Worst showz ever, ROTFLMAO".

There will always be large portions of book readers who will feel like "The books are being butchered, were is my favourite minor character? The story has being ruined, IMHO". I mean, I've seen people who were upset because of the absence of Willas. WILLAS. What on Earth.

The only two stand-ins who could have been cut, to me, were the two whores Ramsay used to torture Theon. Yes, they would have made room for two cheering very minor northen lords. Would have that been enough for complainers? Hell, not even in a thousand years.

The showrunners are making choices. Of course you may think they're poor ones. But one of the mostant things people refuse to acknowledge, even though they say they do, is that this show does already have TOO MANY CHARACTERS, with too many faces and too many names to remember. Show only watchers don't Remember who Roose is. They don't remember who Ilyn Payne is. They don't remember who Anguy is. They don't remember who Illyrio is. And these are all important characters, whose names ought to be remembered, don't you agree?

Showing them 4 cheering northern lords, giving them names to remember, roles to fulfill, would have added more information to an information overloaded show.

Here what I think they will do: they will show all them cheering northern lords at the RW, without giving them names, making them laugh, give pats on Edmure shoulders, hug Cat, shake hands with Robb. And then, they will all be killed. And remember that lord Manderly's son is about to be introduced.

Is it like the books? Christ, no. Will it have enough shock value? I think it will.

[Winter In My Heart]

You know mate, if they cut something else to make room for the northern lords, then other people would have complained that their favourite minor characters had been cut.

Imagine theiìy decided to cut the BwB, which is made by around ten very minor characters and two minor characters, to make room for Wyman Manderly, another minor northen lord and ten very minor northern lords. Would have that worked? Absolutely not.

Now, imagine they cut Tormund and Orell to make room to make room for Manderly and whoever you prefer. Would have that worked? Absolutely not.

Imagine they cut Ramsay. People were already freaking out last year because of the absence of Ramsay in Winterfell. Could they cut him this year? No.

Imagine they cut the Reeds, and leave Osha stand in for them. Again, people were going crazy because of their absence last season. "WTF?!? No Reeds? Worst showz ever, ROTFLMAO".

There will always be large portions of book readers who will feel like "The books are being butchered, were is my favourite minor character? The story has being ruined, IMHO". I mean, I've seen people who were upset because of the absence of Willas. WILLAS. What on Earth.

The only two stand-ins who could have been cut, to me, were the two whores Ramsay used to torture Theon. Yes, they would have made room for two cheering very minor northen lords. Would have that been enough for complainers? Hell, not even in a thousand years.

I think the point is, this season should have focused on the Red Wedding. Show the other minor characters, like the Theon torture scenes, but cut them down. They'll have their time, whereas Cat and Robb won't be around anymore after episode nine. (Well Cat might be. It's hard to say they've butchered her so much who knows if they'll still have LS.) they should be mostly building towards the wedding not rehashing every few episodes Tyrion and Shae fighting, showing she's really jealous, or Theon getting tons of screen time that needs better spent on the northern army, or showing Margaery seducing Joffrey (which I find creepy) or Tyrion having a bunch of scenes talking about the Royal Wedding when that won't happen until next year. (Yeah sure mention it but we don't need him and Oolena taking up five minutes screen time.)

Some might disagree with my examples, but basically there's pointless scenes that are better spent building up the demise of Robb and his army.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

They should have cut the entire Ramsay storyline. Almost no one like that storyline. Bookreaders don't like it, show only people don't like it. You take that out and you have 40 minutes of screen time to do other stuff. And those whole Podrick Payne and whore thing. That contributed nothing to the storyline.

[Winter In My Heart]

They should have cut the entire Ramsay storyline. Almost no one like that storyline. Bookreaders don't like it, show only people don't like it. You take that out and you have 40 minutes of screen time to do other stuff. And those whole Podrick Payne and whore thing. That contributed nothing to the storyline.

Agreed.

I do think they need to show Theon's transformation. No one will like if he suddenly comes back two seasons and is suddenly Reek. But they could definitely cut it down and only show a couple minutes once every few episodes instead of him taking up so much screen time almost every single week.

[The Mondrian Oak]

I think the point is, this season should have focused on the Red Wedding. Show the other minor characters, like the Theon torture scenes, but cut them down. They'll have their time, whereas Cat and Robb won't be around anymore after episode nine. (Well Cat might be. It's hard to say they've butchered her so much who knows if they'll still have LS.) they should be mostly building towards the wedding not rehashing every few episodes Tyrion and Shae fighting, showing she's really jealous, or Theon getting tons of screen time that needs better spent on the northern army, or showing Margaery seducing Joffrey (which I find creepy) or Tyrion having a bunch of scenes talking about the Royal Wedding when that won't happen until next year. (Yeah sure mention it but we don't need him and Oolena taking up five minutes screen time.)

Some might disagree with my examples, but basically there's pointless scenes that are better spent building up the demise of Robb and his army.

Many people say D&D have no right to focus on what they this is important and not focus of what they think is not. And don't you think spending too much time building up the RW would have given the game away?

They should have cut the entire Ramsay storyline. Almost no one like that storyline. Bookreaders don't like it, show only people don't like it. You take that out and you have 40 minutes of screen time to do other stuff. And those whole Podrick Payne and whore thing. That contributed nothing to the storyline.

And what about those who freaked out last year about the absence of Ramsay? They would have been very angry, said "They could have shown him this year! Cut some of the babbling about the RW! Yes, we get it: Edmure is getting married. They didn't show him last year, at least introduce him now! He is fundamental to the story!".

And mate, enough already with Pod. The joke took 1.30 minutes. Silly as it is. They thought they needed comic relief in that particular moment of the episode. Episodes have to be internally strong, and that will require made up scenes, since what is needed may not be found in the books at that particular moment.

[Penguin king]

They should have cut the entire Ramsay storyline. Almost no one like that storyline. Bookreaders don't like it, show only people don't like it. You take that out and you have 40 minutes of screen time to do other stuff. And those whole Podrick Payne and whore thing. That contributed nothing to the storyline.

I agree. If the problem is too many actors on staff, then cut out all the pointless whore scenes. Get rid of the scene with Pod, and the two girls messing with Theon and voilà! Enough money in the budget to hire a couple of extras to stand at Robb's side and look Lordly.

[Winter In My Heart]

Many people say D&D have no right to focus on what they this is important and not focus of what they think is not. And don't you think spending too much time building up the RW would have given the game away?

And what about those who freaked out last year about the absence of Ramsay? They would have been very angry, said "They could have shown him this year! Cut some of the babbling about the RW! Yes, we get it: Edmure is getting married. They didn't show him last year, at least introduce him now! He is fundamental to the story!".

And mate, enough already with Pod. The joke took 1.30 minutes. Silly as it is. They thought they needed comic relief in that particular moment of the episode. Episodes have to be internally strong, and that will require made up scenes, since what is needed may not be found in the books at that particular moment.

But build up to the RW is important. I'm not saying do so much to give of away, but surely they could have put more effort into this arc. They should have at the very least gave us more of a connection as far as the bannermen go. They're like non existent and GW is never around. Will people really care about the wolf's death of they never show him? It's frustrating knowing this season is supposed to be to a major event yet they haven't done anything at all for the northern army story line. His army just consists of his wife, uncle, mother, and BF. Whos going to care about some extras getting killed? At the very least they should have had Greatjon and Dacey and give us more of the loyal bannermen. There's going to be very little impact because they've done nothing to make us care that they're all going to die..

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Theon getting tortured is not as important as the RW. If sacrifices have to be made it's a no brainer to me what I would sacrifice. They made poor choices. And as for Pod, 1:30 is 1:30 too long.

And did you know that the chase scene between Theon and his captors was one of the more expensive sequences in the entire season? Took a long time to shoot and working with horses and stuntmen is always expensive. Budget was a concern and then spent a ton of it on that scene?

[The Mondrian Oak]

But build up to the RW is important. I'm not saying do so much to give of away, but surely they could have put more effort into this arc. They should have at the very least gave us more of a connection as far as the bannermen go. They're like non existent and GW is never around. Will people really care about the wolf's death of they never show him? It's frustrating knowing this season is supposed to be to a major event yet they haven't done anything at all for the northern army story line. His army just consists of his wife, uncle, mother, and BF. Whos going to care about some extras getting killed? At the very least they should have had Greatjon and Dacey and give us more of the loyal bannermen. There's going to be very little impact because they've done nothing to make us care that they're all going to die..

I think people will be shocked enough. I remember being horryfied by Cat's death, and, although she has been underused in the last three episodes, she is the one of the few characters people clearly remember. No-one wants to see Robb die, though he's been fucking stuff up for a season. And a mass slaughter of northen extras will do its job. Have trust. And hey, if it really does not work, you can always come back here and call me wanker! I will bear it in silence, ahah!

Theon getting tortured is not as important as the RW. If sacrifices have to be made it's a no brainer to me what I would sacrifice. They made poor choices. And as for Pod, 1:30 is 1:30 too long.

And did you know that the chase scene between Theon and his captors was one of the more expensive sequences in the entire season? Took a long time to shoot and working with horses and stuntmen is always expensive. Budget was a concern and then spent a ton of it on that scene?

They decided Theon should be included in this season, for reasons that have been listed a thousand times, so I won't repeat them. And mate, that sequence was as cool as fuck. It reminded me of the Lord of the Rings. It was magnificent. And do you really think that, After ALL Theon did last year, they could just drop him? I totally disagree, that was absolutely no poor choice, to me.

[zaphodbrx]

At the very least, if you're not going to introduce them, at least have them there? Just look at Robb in S1 and S2. He had a whole room full of lords. Just have some extras. In this season, pretty much the only people he is with is his mom, wife and 2 Tullys.

[The Mondrian Oak]

At the very least, if you're not going to introduce them, at least have them there? Just look at Robb in S1 and S2. He had a whole room full of lords. Just have some extras. In this season, pretty much the only people he is with is his mom, wife and 2 Tullys.

Ok, that is true. But again, maybe they wanted him to look isolated. Although this sounds like finding excuses. So yes, they could've shown a small war council. I agree.

[chewietobbacca]

They haven't had a lot of war this season though... unlike S1 and S2 when having more war councils made sense.

And remember folks, Lord Karstark wasn't even in the first season and he still made a presence this season. Not having someone show up this season doesn't mean they can't play an important role in the future

But build up to the RW is important. I'm not saying do so much to give of away, but surely they could have put more effort into this arc. They should have at the very least gave us more of a connection as far as the bannermen go. They're like non existent and GW is never around. Will people really care about the wolf's death of they never show him? It's frustrating knowing this season is supposed to be to a major event yet they haven't done anything at all for the northern army story line. His army just consists of his wife, uncle, mother, and BF. Whos going to care about some extras getting killed? At the very least they should have had Greatjon and Dacey and give us more of the loyal bannermen. There's going to be very little impact because they've done nothing to make us care that they're all going to die..

Who is to say they won't show up at the RW and be dead? They might not be named or developed, but neither were Maege Mormont or others when the King in the North is declared in Season 1.

Furthermore, we already know one Manderly is showing up - and he just so happens to have a role to play in the future seasons. Much like Edmure was introduced this season, they can introduce characters in the future that will be important to the storyline when the timing is more appropriate - in this case, Manderly has importance for future seasons

Theon getting tortured is not as important as the RW. If sacrifices have to be made it's a no brainer to me what I would sacrifice. They made poor choices. And as for Pod, 1:30 is 1:30 too long.

And did you know that the chase scene between Theon and his captors was one of the more expensive sequences in the entire season? Took a long time to shoot and working with horses and stuntmen is always expensive. Budget was a concern and then spent a ton of it on that scene?

Um... who is to say that Theon's character development isn't important as the RW?

Keep in mind the books aren't even done yet and Theon is very much alive at the beginning of book 6 - Robb and Co. are long gone by then.

The RW is, yes, a big big moment in the books - and a turning point as well - but it's the end of one storyline. The Theon/Reek/Ramsay storyline is just beginning, and it just so happens, it carries over for many more

[Winter In My Heart]

I think people will be shocked enough. I remember being horryfied by Cat's death, and, although she has been underused in the last three episodes, she is the one of the few characters people clearly remember. No-one wants to see Robb die, though he's been fucking stuff up for a season. And a mass slaughter of northen extras will do its job. Have trust. And hey, if it really does not work, you can always come back here and call me wanker! I will bear it in silence, ahah!

They decided Theon should be included in this season, for reasons that have been listed a thousand times, so I won't repeat them. And mate, that sequence was as cool as fuck. It reminded me of the Lord of the Rings. It was magnificent. And do you really think that, After ALL Theon did last year, they could just drop him? I totally disagree, that was absolutely no poor choice, to me.

I still think they should have had a few prominent actors as Robb's main loyal bannermen. I know the RW will likely still be big and a shock but definitely not as good as it could have been. I think it's because of the lack of these characters and his direwolves that have caused me to have little faith. I guess all that can be done is wait and see but I still feel they should have spent a tad more time on this arc rather than some other pointless scenes. (Like why should Jon and Yigrette get so much screen time in one episode??) I know they're important and need screen time but if you even just take one scene away from them that could be spent better on the northern army. And why bother showing the young Stark boys if its just OSHA and Meera bickering? Or pointless sex scenes.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

They haven't had a lot of war this season though... unlike S1 and S2 when having more war councils made sense.

And remember folks, Lord Karstark wasn't even in the first season and he still made a presence this season. Not having someone show up this season doesn't mean they can't play an important role in the future

Who is to say they won't show up at the RW and be dead? They might not be named or developed, but neither were Maege Mormont or others when the King in the North is declared in Season 1.

Furthermore, we already know one Manderly is showing up - and he just so happens to have a role to play in the future seasons. Much like Edmure was introduced this season, they can introduce characters in the future that will be important to the storyline when the timing is more appropriate - in this case, Manderly has importance for future seasons

Um... who is to say that Theon's character development isn't important as the RW?

Keep in mind the books aren't even done yet and Theon is very much alive at the beginning of book 6 - Robb and Co. are long gone by then.

The RW is, yes, a big big moment in the books - and a turning point as well - but it's the end of one storyline. The Theon/Reek/Ramsay storyline is just beginning, and it just so happens, it carries over for many more

The irony that you can type that and still insist that Theon's story be made integral in season 3 hasn't escaped me.

[MarieAntoinette]

Another thing that won't be very sad is the loss of Robb's wolf (I call him that because they have not once mentioned his name being Grey Wind). He stood next to Robb's horse for about a second in one scene this season. The last time we saw him was episode 1 of season 2. I wonder if people even remember that he has a wolf.

I guess Grey Wind was not shown because I assume at least a part of the direwolves appearances are CGI, and they probably spent most of the budget on the locations and Dany's dragons.

Catelyn as a background character and the lack of Grey Wind are the two things that annoy me the most when I think of the upcoming RW. I'll give them a pass on the Northern bannermen, I would have liked it if they were shown, but the cast is big enough alreay, I see why they could not be included.

I'm a fan of the show, but it is pretty obvious that they have botched Robb's storyline.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

They decided Theon should be included in this season, for reasons that have been listed a thousand times, so I won't repeat them. And mate, that sequence was as cool as fuck. It reminded me of the Lord of the Rings. It was magnificent. And do you really think that, After ALL Theon did last year, they could just drop him? I totally disagree, that was absolutely no poor choice, to me.

Congratulations, you've sacrificed the "single most important scene that was the reason we wanted to do the show" for an action sequence that was inconsequential ultimately to the story.