[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[YTDN]

I was always fond of Robb before the RW. But since I started reading the books, I had the feeling that he was going to die, so I never got too attached to him. He was never one of my favorites, and did not become one after the RW. But I did want him to win :crying:

I think that's the tragedy of the RW. While Robb might not be some people's favourite characters, he's still one that the audience roots for, since he represents the Starks and the North. Once he dies, the Lannisters have won (and despite some Lannisters being sympathetic, Tywin is still a nasty piece of work) and the remaining Stark children are scattered. It's kind of the end of the hope of a happy ending, at least for the foreseeable future.

[Joyful Union]

I hope not. I'm terrible at those jokes. I'd lose the game.

Off topic, but love your avatar.

Its never to late to learn my friend

I thought you were a big Stannis fan. :cool4:

To sum up my thoughts on the topic, I don't think the lack of northern bannermen will make much difference to the emotional impact of the scene, and I still think the reaction will be significant, though not as significant as Ned's death. I also think that enough people like Robb and Cat for it to matter, and that even people who arent big fans of them will be swept away by the horror of the moment irregardless.

[Cas Stark]

I wonder how many people liked Robb as they were reading the books before they read the RW, and how many retroactively liked him after the tragedy of the RW?

Also, people liking other characters is always going to happen, especially in a series like this. Can we stop throwing around huge generalisations like 'everyone loves Robb' or 'nobody cares about Robb'?

I always liked him, I was a bit surprised to come to the forum and find people who said they didn't like him or didn't care about him because he didn't have a POV. His mother gives us a ton of first hand details about him, his leadership skills, etc. and he is praised by numerous other characters.

[Young Nan]

I miss the bannermen a lot and think that they add a lot of color to Robb and his cause.

That said, I think their absence isn't the primary factor that will kill the impact of the red wedding, I think that the emotional lead-up to it is what will be devastating.

In the book, we see the lead-up through Cat's eyes, yet she has been mostly in the background this season, so we don't get that viewpoint. I think if they had made her more prominent, and also made Blackfish less of a dickwad, it would be better.

They are really playing on the whole "tragic love affair" between Robb and Talisa. Nobody really cares about them though, even non-book people. All of the unsullied I know are really invested in Dany right now, especially after the "Dracarys" scene, which was really cool. Also lots of people digging the Jamie/Brienne storyline. I've had three people, including my sister, who is "obsessed" with the show, ask me who Talisa was. So I don't think that non-book viewers are as invested in the Robb and Talisa romance as the directors thought they would be. And since that's the main card they are playing to garner sympathy for them for the RW, I think it will fall flat.

[Cas Stark]

That's because they did a terrible job with "Talisa" as a character, Robb's motivation and their love story. What is so great about her, except her butt?

If they were going to do this, as I have said before, they should have given Robb a speech were he laments that his father lived for honor and sacrificed his own desires over and over again and got nothing for it in the end and that Robb was not going to make that mistake...then turn him into a grim badass who knows he's doomed, but he's going down fighting and wants a little joy from love before he dies.

At least you could respect that as a reaction to your father's death and all the other horrific tragedy that befell your honorable, noble family. "Because I luvs her" is selfish considering the cost.

[Theda Baratheon]

I always liked him, I was a bit surprised to come to the forum and find people who said they didn't like him or didn't care about him because he didn't have a POV. His mother gives us a ton of first hand details about him, his leadership skills, etc. and he is praised by numerous other characters.

His crying and holding Brans hand in the dark always got to me :(

[Young Nan]

His crying and holding Brans hand in the dark always got to me :(

Yeah, that was a really great scene in the books, especially after all Bran's talk about how Robb had "changed" into Lord Stark. That scene really got to me.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yeah, that was a really great scene in the books, especially after all Bran's talk about how Robb had "changed" into Lord Stark. That scene really got to me.

I really did like Robb in the books and in season 1. I swear Talisa has just ruined everything, I HATE HER.

[Young Nan]

I really did like Robb in the books and in season 1. I swear Talisa has just ruined everything, I HATE HER.

Curse her! *shakes fist at Talisa's ass*

[Cas Stark]

I really did like Robb in the books and in season 1. I swear Talisa has just ruined everything, I HATE HER.

Yes, Roose, please kill her, ASAP. Or, if she unbelievably turns out to be a spy, then Cat, slit her throat. But, gods be good, somebody kills this woman.

[Set_Gecko]

I decided to just stop for a moment and think of all reasons, that RW hit me so hard the first time I read it. I came up with 2 reasons.

1) Of course, all the awesome bannermen that I cared about, thanks to their short but colorfull contributions. And then they are slaughtered. Yeah, so many great people. It's a shame we don't get the amount of bannerman to make us care.

2) This one I don't see getting much attention: Robb actually had a plan of retaking the North! Robb was a really talented warlord, and every mistake that he made (in retrospeckt) at the time seemed to happen despite his best efforts, bad luck of sorts. But the guy who won every battle had a feasible plan to retake Moat Cailin, was a good leader. The Freys business seemed like a sidetrack - just sacrifice your clumsy uncle, and get on to the BIGGER GOAL.....THEN BAAMMMMMM. Yeah, RW happened. Now, in the show, it doesn't feel like Robb is on the verge of accomplishing sth that will put the North ahead of the Lannisters in the war (or at least, dramatically improve their situation). Yeah, we got that thing about him wanting to take the war to Tywin's lands, but that was such a passing thing.....The whole punch for me was the fact, that yeah, mr Makedonski is about to do THIS and THAT, and then BAM. Now it seems like getting to Freys is the final goal.....Sth is missing for me for sure

[Theda Baratheon]

Curse her! *shakes fist at Talisa's ass*

lol my worst nightmare is if they somehow give the ''ned loves my hair'' type line to Talisa in the RW

CAN YOU IMAGINE

[Joyful Union]

lol my worst nightmare is if they somehow give the ''ned loves my hair'' type line to Talisa in the RW

CAN YOU IMAGINE

I'm curious just how far they're going to go with Catelyn's last scene. I can't imagine them showing her ripping her own face to ribbons, and I certainly cant imagine them showing her cutting the throat of a mentally ill Frey.

[Young Nan]

lol my worst nightmare is if they somehow give the ''ned loves my hair'' type line to Talisa in the RW

CAN YOU IMAGINE

OMFG I will flip my shit if that happens. They keep taking out all the awesome lines! Off topic, but I was really surprised that they took out the "only rescue maidens" line, since GRRM wrote the episode. So much cooler than "sorry about the sapphires".

So I don't have high hopes about that line, especially since I think Cat said it in her head, not out loud, correct?

[Young Nan]

I'm curious just how far they're going to go with Catelyn's last scene. I can't imagine them showing her ripping her own face to ribbons, and I certainly cant imagine them showing her cutting the throat of a mentally ill Frey.

I don't think they'll do either, mores the pity. Her ripping her face up was pretty intense.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm curious just how far they're going to go with Catelyn's last scene. I can't imagine them showing her ripping her own face to ribbons, and I certainly cant imagine them showing her cutting the throat of a mentally ill Frey.

the red wedding is seen through the lens of Catelyn and they've completely neglected her this season, i'd be surprised if they even show her for more than 30 seconds during the scene.

[Theda Baratheon]

OMFG I will flip my shit if that happens. They keep taking out all the awesome lines! Off topic, but I was really surprised that they took out the "only rescue maidens" line, since GRRM wrote the episode. So much cooler than "sorry about the sapphires".

So I don't have high hopes about that line, especially since I think Cat said it in her head, not out loud, correct?

she did say it in her head, but i can imagine in her crazed state her mumbling it loudly over and over or something.

now it's gonna be a close up of talisa on the floor ''no, not my ass...robb really loved my ass''

[Joyful Union]

the red wedding is seen through the lens of Catelyn and they've completely neglected her this season, i'd be surprised if they even show her for more than 30 seconds during the scene.

They havent completely neglected her. She has had two of the longest monologues this season. Its only really in the last three episodes that she's been neglected. I'm fairly sure she will be a big focus on the wedding, I just think there will be limits to how horrific her reaction will be.

[Young Nan]

she did say it in her head, but i can imagine in her crazed state her mumbling it loudly over and over or something.

now it's gonna be a close up of talisa on the floor ''no, not my ass...robb really loved my ass''

LMAO

[AliKat]

Are they?

I don't see why, its not like he's likeable or there's some huge investment by the audience in show Robb. What's to love about him? That he loves Talisa? He's not a great warrior, he's not honorable, he's not loved by his men, he has almost zero following from any likeable or memorable characters anymore, he doesn't have a fierce and loved direwolf companion, he doesn't do anything at all particularly well. Why would anyone shed a tear over show Robb dying?

Up until Season 2 episode 10 I would say you're 100% wrong. D&D made a major mistake by not letting Cat & Robb find out about Bran/Rickon prior to her setting Jaime free and him sleeping with Talisa. If they had kept that as it was, then Robb being comforted by Talisa would have been understandable. And people would understand why season 3 Robb is so angry, hurt, and burnt out. I saw an interview with Richard Madden where he explains that Robb is burnt out chasing the Lannisters and not actually gaining any ground yet the show doesn't explain this. They just show him angry all the time this season. They almost imply its because of Catelyn because he locks her up the first episode. D&D have done the greatest disservice to Cat and Robb this season than they have done to any characters in any seasons. They have their favorite actors and are giving them the time and attention that should be given to some beloved characters that will be gone after episode 9 (Cat & Robb). They could have had some of the other northern bannermen (Dacey, Smalljon, Manderlys, etc) as well as some of the riverlords (Pipers for example) and cut out some of the KL's whores or just cut some of Theon/Ramsay's screentime. Theon has gotten probably 45 mins of overdone brutal torture vs. characters that won't be around after this season. I try not to complain too much about the show vs. the books but this season's biggest failing has been the Robb/Cat storyline and that can't be fixed in future chapters. If people don't care about Robb now its because of what has happened since 2x08. Everyone loved Robb and Cat before.