[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[Kyoti]

Not going to rehash a ton of stuff that has been said, but this is basic storytelling as is done in any adaptation. No one forgot who Cat was because she has been right up there with Tyrion, Dany, and Jon as main characters, a simple reminder of her stakes will instantly bring her back to the forefront.

They can do with "Rains of Castamere" exactly what they did with "Blackwater" last season and have it 100% focused on the RW. The first scene will be Roose delivering a letter sealed with Bolton pink containing Theon's finger skin and news that the Stark boys are dead. In 30 seconds you instantly connect the dots with Theon and Ramsey, drive a final nail into Cat's psychological breakdown and let EVERYONE know that Robb is walking into a trap. Not only that but you make the Boltons into the villains that you never suspected but should have seen coming a mile away. Scene two is Cat losing her shit over Bran and Rickon. Scene three show Robb with Grey Wind comforting him like a loyal pet. What would that take, maybe 10 minutes of the entire episode to remind the audience of the stakes of these characters that have been very well established in the show? Then you have 40+ minutes to destroy it all.

Just because they have spent the vast majority of this season setting up the next few seasons does not negate the fact that Rob, Cat, and the North as a whole have had their story and their stakes well established for 2+ seasons.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

What happened to the trend in season 1 where we HAD SO MANY CHARACTERS like jory amongst others, now we have no one for robb, it's really silly. i really do think a few more named bannermen would have been great.

They had to add all those the Tyrells, BwB, and a bunch of other characters in Westeros, not to mention everthing in Essos. Limited resources -- It's why the Tullys didn't appear until this season, etc..

[Joyful Union]

Not going to rehash a ton of stuff that has been said, but this is basic storytelling as is done in any adaptation. No one forgot who Cat was because she has been right up there with Tyrion, Dany, and Jon as main characters, a simple reminder of her stakes will instantly bring her back to the forefront.

They can do with "Rains of Castamere" exactly what they did with "Blackwater" last season and have it 100% focused on the RW. The first scene will be Roose delivering a letter sealed with Bolton pink containing Theon's finger skin and news that the Stark boys are dead. In 30 seconds you instantly connect the dots with Theon and Ramsey, drive a final nail into Cat's psychological breakdown and let EVERYONE know that Robb is walking into a trap. Not only that but you make the Boltons into the villains that you never suspected but should have seen coming a mile away. Scene two is Cat losing her shit over Bran and Rickon. Scene three show Robb with Grey Wind comforting him like a loyal pet. What would that take, maybe 10 minutes of the entire episode to remind the audience of the stakes of these characters that have been very well established in the show? Then you have 40+ minutes to destroy it all.

Just because they have spent the vast majority of this season setting up the next few seasons does not negate the fact that Rob, Cat, and the North as a whole have had their story and their stakes well established for 2+ seasons.

The episode synopsis for episode 9 shows that there is more than just the RW in this episode.

"Robb presents himself to Walder Frey, and Edmure meets his bride. Jon faces his harshest test yet. Bran discovers a new gift. Daario and Jorah debate how to take Yunkai. House Frey joins with House Tully"

It looks like the RW will make up a large portion of the episode, but there are other story lines. Its probably better, as I'm not sure you could do a whole episode just on the RW, and also it makes it far to obvious what is going to happen.

[Theda Baratheon]

They had to add all those the Tyrells, BwB, and a bunch of other characters in Westeros, not to mention everthing in Essos. Limited resources -- It's why the Tullys didn't appear until this season, etc..

i still think there could have been more northern bannermen if theyd cut down some other time constraints and resources on lesser things. these season was supposed to be really important for robb's story and the red wedding.

[Kyoti]

The episode synopsis for episode 9 shows that there is more than just the RW in this episode.

"Robb presents himself to Walder Frey, and Edmure meets his bride. Jon faces his harshest test yet. Bran discovers a new gift. Daario and Jorah debate how to take Yunkai. House Frey joins with House Tully"

It looks like the RW will make up a large portion of the episode, but there are other story lines. Its probably better, as I'm not sure you could do a whole episode just on the RW, and also it makes it far to obvious what is going to happen.

Regardless of how they do it, it takes almost nothing to remind people of the weight of these characters.

[Sofokles]

That's not true. That's not the only excuse. They also have to use their time and budget for their nudity quota. And of course Pod's sexaventures, Ros' own plots, and Bronn's and Tyrion's "jokes".

ETA: oh, and lets not forget the most important storyline of the season: Theon's torture.

That made me laugh.

But seriously they could spend more screen time on Robb since his demise is few episodes away and they cant spend it after that.

I think some scenes with his bannermen are more important than scenes with Robb and Talisa makin' a heir

[Theda Baratheon]

That made me laugh.

But seriously they could spend more screen time on Robb since his demise is few episodes away and they cant spend it after that.

I think some scenes with his bannermen are more important than scenes with Robb and Talisa makin' a heir

definitely more important, i agree. i hate their stupid love story. it's so contrived.

[Dove]

Still pouring one out for my girl Dacey Mormont, sad she didn't make the cut~

Hopefully Manderly Jr. gets introduced next episode and gets some face time before the RW if nothing else.

[Theda Baratheon]

i loved Dacey :crying:

I was really sad when she hadnt been cast

[Jolene Brown]

If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was only in 3 episodes in Season 2, it's hard for me to believe they couldn't get away with using Alfie Allen for 3 eps in Seasons 3 & 4. NCW is much more established.

[Cas Stark]

If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was only in 3 episodes in Season 2, it's hard for me to believe they couldn't get away with using Alfie Allen for 3 eps in Seasons 3 & 4. NCW is much more established.

They could have. Quite Easily. Especially since Theon's torture, while good TV, is not a central plot element.

[Theda Baratheon]

If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was only in 3 episodes in Season 2, it's hard for me to believe they couldn't get away with using Alfie Allen for 3 eps in Seasons 3 & 4. NCW is much more established.

WELL, THIS GIVES ME HOPE FOR NEXT SEASON.

[Joyful Union]

If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was only in 3 episodes in Season 2, it's hard for me to believe they couldn't get away with using Alfie Allen for 3 eps in Seasons 3 & 4. NCW is much more established.

He was in four episodes, two less than Theon will be in this season. So far, Theon has had slightly less screen-time than Jaime did in season 2, mostly due to the "Man without Honor" episode.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

They could have. Quite Easily. Especially since Theon's torture, while good TV, is not a central plot element.

It's actually not good TV. Every podcast, forum, where I've seen the TV show discussed among non-book readers. I've seen an overwhelming negative reaction to the Theon torture scenes.

[Theda Baratheon]

It's actually not good TV. Every podcast, forum, where I've seen the TV show discussed among non-book readers. I've seen an overwhelming negative reaction to the Theon torture scenes.

The Horse/ Rescue scene was amazing, personally. I really, really loved it. The others...not so much. And the TIME taken with them. We could have had more subtle 1/2 minute scenes spread about more.

[ViserionsFire]

I didn't read through the entire thread, so, sorry if this has already been discussed. Was the "Guest Right" of hospitality ever introduced? To me, this was a major factor in why Robb and his bannermen were even able to feel safe enough to make the venture to the Twins. That the RW occurred was contrary to all laws of hospitality know throughout Westeros. It was under the pretext of "Guest Right", a tradition that hadn't been broken in living memory, that Robb and Cat came to the wedding. So far, the tradition of "Guest Right" hasn't been introduced in this series. When Jon first met Mance, Mance let Jon know that that no harm would happen because of Guest Right. When Roose eats with Jaime and Brienne at Harrenhall, Roose tell Jaime that "in the north, they hold the right of hospitality". So the writers could have introduced the concept of "Guest Right" but so far haven't. It is the honorable code of hospitality that all Lords have traditionally followed being broken at the RW that severs past alliances and reveals a direction without the foundation of honor that Westeros is heading into.

[Ramsay Gimp]

What sucks is that the Northern bannermen who get the most focus in ASOS are Karstark and Bolton - traitors. None of the others get significant attention, though of course they are there.

If they had wanted to focus on loyal bannermen, they would have probably had to cut the Karstark storyline.

[Theda Baratheon]

I didn't read through the entire thread, so, sorry if this has already been discussed. Was the "Guest Right" of hospitality ever introduced? To me, this was a major factor in why Robb and his bannermen were even able to feel safe enough to make the venture to the Twins. That the RW occurred was contrary to all laws of hospitality know throughout Westeros. It was under the pretext of "Guest Right", a tradition that hadn't been broken in living memory, that Robb and Cat came to the wedding. So far, the tradition of "Guest Right" hasn't been introduced in this series. When Jon first met Mance, Mance let Jon know that that no harm would happen because of Guest Right. When Roose eats with Jaime and Brienne at Harrenhall, Roose tell Jaime that "in the north, they hold the right of hospitality". So the writers could have introduced the concept of "Guest Right" but so far haven't. It is the honorable code of hospitality that all Lords have traditionally followed being broken at the RW that severs past alliances and reveals a direction without the foundation of honor that Westeros is heading into.

I'm not sure if it's been made evident in the show, but hospitality and guest right is actually quite important in History too.

[JaTyAdo]

They're screwing the emotional impact of Red Wedding up!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: :bawl: :bawl: I'm both in rage and sadness!! I know this complaints may be repeatitive and most of what I'll say has already been said but I'll just say this again:

Robb is not likeable, Catelyn is who-the-fuck-was-she-again, Robb/Talisa's love story is so lame especially when the whole thing just looks like a stupid boy who fell in love with a hot chick and married her though he's supposed to be a king and has a duty because of her ass, Robb's council consist of BF, Edmure, his mother, and his hot wife who came from Volantis but Robb just gave her permission to show up in his council like a fool in love that he was though she came from the East and doesn't know a lot of things about Westeros and now, she doesn't even know where Winterfell was in the map. Thank goodness, good luck with such a council.

Of course, the show can improve this:

In season 2, they should have just revealed to them that Bran and Rickon are dead so Robb and Catelyn's reaction will be more understandable. The conversation between Catelyn and Brienne in the book about her kids was one of my favorites since you could just feel Catelyn's grief so much. Ramsay could have been introduced already. Oh, how much I hated but admired him at the same time when Reek revealed who he is. But of course what happened has already happened so now, let's go to season 3.

In season 3, too much scenes that could be cut off/limited to do some buildup for the emotional grief of people in RW:

• Theon's torture scenes which at first, I find interesting since we didn't see it in the book but it's starting to get repeatitive that people are starting to get sick of it(including me) that I doubt they're giving a fuck of who the hell that boy is. Show watchers might just be thinking this is just some extra for people who love watching bloody torturing scenes. I know that this is important for Theon's arc but they could have limited the scenes.
  
• Meera and Osha's argument is so petty. They could have just cut it off when they just look like some immature adults having a childish, stupid, argument and it's very painful to watch.
  
• Pod's whoring adventure is hilarious but couldn't they just cut that unnecessary scene off so we could have important scenes that could at least give more connection of the characters to the viewers?
  
• Olenna Tyrell's screentime is just too much. She's one of my favorite character and the best female character for me but she didn't need to have that much time. Hell, her only scene in the book was with Sansa. I love her but there's more necessary scenes that should be shown instead of her.
  
• Margaery seducing Joffrey is so repeatitive that I'm just starting to get sick of it. I love Natalie Dormer, one of the most beautiful woman I've ever seen and Anne Boleyn is my favorite character in Tudors but I'm not fond of her Margaery seeing how she's like a copy of Anne Boleyn and once is enough. Do they really have to show her doing that again and again? I get it already. She can manipulate Joffrey.
  

Now to improve it, instead of showing such scenes, why not just include this stuff:

• 
  “Nothing will happen to you. Nothing. I could not stand it. They took Ned, and your sweet brothers. Sansa is married, Arya is lost, my father’s dead... if anything befell you, I would go mad, Robb. You are all I have left. You are all the north has left.”
  “I am not dead yet, Mother.”
  Suddenly Catelyn was full of dread. “Wars need not be fought until the last drop of blood.” Even she could hear the desperation in her voice. “You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.”
  His mouth tightened. “No. Never.”
  “There is no shame in it. Balon Greyjoy bent the knee to Robert when his rebellion failed. Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror rather than see his army face the fires.”
  “Did Aegon kill King Torrhen’s father?” He pulled his hand from hers. “Never, I said.”
  He is playing the boy now, not the king. “The Lannisters do not need the north. They will require homage and hostages, no more... and the Imp will keep Sansa no matter what we do, so they have their hostage. The ironmen will prove a more implacable enemy, I promise you. To have any hope of holding the north, the Greyjoys must leave no single sprig of House Stark alive to dispute their right. Theon’s murdered Bran and Rickon, so now all they need do is kill you... and Jeyne, yes. Do you think Lord Balon can afford to let her live to bear you heirs?”
  Robb’s face was cold. “Is that why you freed the Kingslayer? To make a peace with the Lannisters?”
  “I freed Jaime for Sansa’s sake... and Arya’s, if she still lives. You know that. But if I nurtured some hope of buying peace as well, was that so ill?”
  “Yes,” he said. “The Lannisters killed my father.”
  “Do you think I have forgotten that?”“I don’t know. Have you?”
  

-This will show Catelyn's grief and remind people that he's fighting for Ned, his father, the man who was killed unjustly by the blonde douchebag

in season 1 which also cause them to be in rage with the blonde douchebag. I'm not saying that they should have include the whole

conversation, just something to understand the characters but now Robb is just some total ass who doesn't listen to anyone and

just moons over Talisa's ass.

• The cool line 'I'm winning the battles but I'm losing the war.' should have been delivered in a different situation. This is something that he said while talking with Catelyn. Why not just let it stay that way instead of having him said this to persuade Edmure to marry the Frey girl? Now, he totally looks like a kid who wants someone to do something for him so he could win the war when he's totally the reason why they lose the Freys in the first place. Not that I'm saying he wasn't like that in the book but if anyone who was in Edmure's place would have said 'We're losing the war because of you, asshole!' Now, that's just very unkingly.
  
• The execution of Lord Karstark just came off to the viewers as Robb being a stupid and stubborn ass who doesn't listen to anyone. Surely, the show could have explained the whole thing more to the viewers as to why he doesn't have a choice. Why didn't they show at least a scene that shows that Robb doesn't like what he did?
  
• Cut off the unnecessary Robb-flirting-with-Talisa scenes! Those scenes just make him look more stupid.
  
• Couldn't they just include this line in the show: "Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself... swore to myself... that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies... now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickard’s fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friends’ father for their sakes."? Because I really love Robb that time.. :bawl: In the show, he just looks like some stubborn teenage boy and no personalities of a good king.
  
• Just tell them that Bran and Rickon are dead so the people could understand how much Catelyn is trying to endure..
  
• His Northern bannermen are not there to show that they still support him and would remain loyal to him 'till the very end, probably add at least one Northern Bannermen with him in his council instead of Talisa who doesn't even know where Winterfell is. Just like what someone had already said, the RW is not just about Catelyn and Robb dying, it's also the death of the Northern rebellion, the independence that they were fighting for. The image of all those northmen who were struggling to protect him, all those Northmen who got massacred. In the show, when RW happened, the people will forget about the others and probably just think of Roose as the only Northman. My problem with Wendel Manderly is that they're going to include him only now? Why?
  

Oh and btw, I'm someone who watched the show first up to two seasons before reading the book and now, I too have so much complaints about the show when there is so much that could be improved without ruining ASOIAF. Now, I just couldn't understand how there's some book readers who says 'Stop ranting about the show. It's an adaptation.' and they're doing a shitty job of adapting it, just to remind you. All that said, I still have hopes for the RW. I always wonder how they're gonna do it on the show but I already made it up in my mind.

The lyrics of 'Rains of Castamere' will be sung loudly. Musicians(except for the drummers) will suddenly take their crossbows out[...] People will be shouting 'Protect the king!'[...] Catelyn will have flashbacks of all her children happy together and Ned, then she'll have an inner monologue(I highly doubt that she's going to have one in the show but I really wish she had) but she'll say her last line loudly. Of course, she was still clawing her face because of madness. Edmure was naked(because he just came after having sex and in such a hurry after finding out about the plan) and holding a sword. He came just in time to see Catelyn die and then he will be in a fit of anger but he was still defeated since he was a captive. Finally, Greywind came in the hall and leapt at the table. He has his eyes on Walder Frey but all the archers had their eyes on him so, as he was going to Walder Frey, he was hit by many bolt. He died but before his death, he gave Walder Frey one last snarl to make him piss his pants. THE END. I couldn't include Talisa. She's so horrible that I just don't want to include her in such a dramatic scene.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

It is definitely an issue and has and will lessen the impact of what is to come very soon; and then it will not matter much until Wyman Manderly is finally introduced.