[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[Ravi Seaworth]

It seems to me that they didn't really get everything that the RW means, and all the emotional factors that it had. They probably saw it as BAM! the Young Wolf and a bunch of people dying in a wedding.... That's it.

That's why the books have much more depth than the show and you should let go it if you want to still enjoy it. Maybe, they know what the RW means, but decided that the best approach is to simplify it to that.

[Cas Stark]

As much as I am not a fan of the show at the moment, I feel we should wait to actually see next episodes before we begin to critize how horrible everything is. It may blow our minds (in the positive sense), completely against our expectations, and in the end, some of us will look a bit stupid, just like those who told their unsullied that The Bear and the Maiden Fair will be the best episode because George had written it.

*gets off her high horse and leaves*

At this point, it is impossible that they can do justice to the Red Wedding. Even a wonderful, dramatic, tragic, sad, beautifully filmed TV RW will not do it justice because:

1. Robb is a dunse in the show who married a Volantis bimbo who doesn't know where Winterfell is.

2. He has no loyal bannermen with him at Riverrun, at all.

3. He has not won a battle on screen since? mid season last year.

4. The epic betrayal that breaking of guest right represents doesn't exist in the show.

[Gendels Children]

EXACTLY!!! This is what I'm talking about.. whenever Robb appears, they show how he's such an ass, how he moons over Talisa's ass.. They're not even including the important stuff that's happening to Robb and Catelyn.. Really, was it really that hard to include such stuff when they have time for many unnecessary/annoying filler scenes??

you could also make the same argument with Jon AND Bran scenes. Jon; Bael the Bard? the horn of Joramun? Mance being at winterfell during Roberts visit and noticing the Stark children and their wolves? Mance encountering Jon and Robb as children? Dalla? Val? Ghost? Jons warging abilities? Jons connection and acceptance with the wildings? there is a lot of golden material they have just snuffed off which people would find super interesting. and Bran, the main thing I wanted sooo much from the Bran storylines in the Knight of the laughing tree, which is yet to be told, granted it still could be on its way so complaining right now might be jumping the gun a little. but yes the truth in there, al the most interesting and relevant information and scenes from the Starks just gets kicked to the curb.... the saddest part being that most of these things is set up entirely with dialogue and could cost nothing but time (time which as been wasted on Ros, Pod, them stupid women in that last theon scene- ah seriously that scene went on for AGES! waaay to long, there were so many better ways to spend that time)

[Birdsong65]

As much as I am not a fan of the show at the moment, I feel we should wait to actually see next episodes before we begin to critize how horrible everything is. It may blow our minds (in the positive sense), completely against our expectations, and in the end, some of us will look a bit stupid, just like those who told their unsullied that The Bear and the Maiden Fair will be the best episode because George had written it.

*gets off her high horse and leaves*

Seriously, in this particular case, I would so totally embrace being the dumbest person in the room. Please make it so.

And I'll even give details about how wrong I was. I'll stand there in my wrong-ness and get used to it.

I'm on record, now.

[Kyoti]

As much as I am not a fan of the show at the moment, I feel we should wait to actually see next episodes before we begin to critize how horrible everything is. It may blow our minds (in the positive sense), completely against our expectations, and in the end, some of us will look a bit stupid, just like those who told their unsullied that The Bear and the Maiden Fair will be the best episode because George had written it.

*gets off her high horse and leaves*

:agree:

This. So much this. I cannot believe the amount of nerd-rage for something that A) is 2 episodes away and B) has had multiple ways pointed out that the show could make this great with 1 or 2 30 second scenes. If you are watching this show with people who no longer care about the Starks then you are watching the show with idiots that couldn't follow the plot of a Loony Toons cartoon. The show is purposefully downplaying the magical elements of the story, if you read any entertainment blogs/forums you would know how much hate there was for throwing a giant in the first episode, having 14 wargs would kill the show for a lot of people. Also, in about 2 episodes the Starks are going to be pushed pretty far into the background, the show HAS to focus on other characters, and even if they didn't what would they show? Robb tromping through a field with Grey Wind? Cat whining about her lost kids?

The bottom line is this episode did not ruin the RW or the show, you just have no patience or lack the understanding of how an adaptation has to play out on TV.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

That's why the books have much more depth than the show and you should let go it if you want to still enjoy it. Maybe, they know what the RW means, but decided that the best approach is to simplify it to that.

The show is not as deep as the books, and it never will. But it could and would be deeper than it is if they used their time correctly and wisely. By simplifying the RW to the level they have simplified it, you're taking away a lot of it's emotional impact. It won't be the most tragic moment of the whole show for many viewers, when it could perfectly have been, and when it was for many readers.

[Gendels Children]

The show is not as deep as the books, and it never will. But it could and would be deeper than it is if they used their time correctly and wisely. By simplifying the RW to the level they have simplified it, you're taking away a lot of it's emotional impact. It won't be the most tragic moment of the whole show for many viewers, when it could perfectly have been, and when it was for many readers.

yeah, it seems like if they are going to kill Talisa off at the RW then they are trying to add extra drama and emotions to the scene, but it will only work as well as any cheap trick that could have been thought up at the last minute. to set it/us up for the drama the way the books intended it would have taken time, time that I guess they couldn't spare..especially if it was time they could have used showing nudity ....

[Cas Stark]

:agree:

This. So much this. I cannot believe the amount of nerd-rage for something that A) is 2 episodes away and B) has had multiple ways pointed out that the show could make this great with 1 or 2 30 second scenes. If you are watching this show with people who no longer care about the Starks then you are watching the show with idiots that couldn't follow the plot of a Loony Toons cartoon. The show is purposefully downplaying the magical elements of the story, if you read any entertainment blogs/forums you would know how much hate there was for throwing a giant in the first episode, having 14 wargs would kill the show for a lot of people. Also, in about 2 episodes the Starks are going to be pushed pretty far into the background, the show HAS to focus on other characters, and even if they didn't what would they show? Robb tromping through a field with Grey Wind? Cat whining about her lost kids?

The bottom line is this episode did not ruin the RW or the show, you just have no patience or lack the understanding of how an adaptation has to play out on TV.

There weren't any magical elements related to the RW, and I don't lack understanding of how an adaptation has to play out on TV.

I lack sympathy for decisions that give more screen time to torturing whores, LF whores, Shae and Tyrion fighting for the X time, LF and Varys sparring for the X time, characters that didn't exist at all in the book for the X time than giving that screen time to Robb Stark's storyline in Storm of Swords, to giving that time to put some Northern bannermen in Season 3 with him, to putting some more thought into the writing of the Talisa storyline so it didn't make Robb Stark out to be a selfish chump.

[Tquinn BC]

Guys. it will be awesome, don't worry. I'm sure they will show us a glimpse of Grey Wind in the next episode. We'll get Manderly's son and probably a few fierce looking, bearded mead drinking, northmen who say a joke or two. Then BAM! In two weeks they all get killed. It will shock the shit out of all the Unsullied Fans. It will shock us, the nerds, it will shock 'erbody.

I use to remember I was worried about the dragons. Will they be big puppets? Will it look crappy like the dragons on Merlin or Star Gate? And it was fine. The RW will play out fine.

[Kyoti]

At this point, it is impossible that they can do justice to the Red Wedding. Even a wonderful, dramatic, tragic, sad, beautifully filmed TV RW will not do it justice because:

1. Robb is a dunse in the show who married a Volantis bimbo who doesn't know where Winterfell is.

2. He has no loyal bannermen with him at Riverrun, at all.

3. He has not won a battle on screen since? mid season last year.

4. The epic betrayal that breaking of guest right represents doesn't exist in the show.

1. Hate the character all you want, but she has 3 possible outcomes that will all fit with the TV plot and narrative. She will either die pregnant at the RW and add a ton of weight. Or she will be revealed as a Lannister spy and explain and justify everything you hate about her. Or she will be handed over to the Boltons as fArya or the TV equivalent thereof and be far more effective in that role than Jayne Poole ever was.

2. None shown on screen yet this season... because what purpose would they serve? You can add 450 characters that get one line and get their name mentioned twice and add maybe 5% more weight to the tvRW or you can spend all of that time adding a lot of weight to characters that will matter in seasons 4, 5, and 6.

3. They addressed this. Tywin is moving his troops around and giving them worthless targets for one, but more importantly you seem to be leaving out the whole reason Eddmure is marrying a Frey in the first place i.e. the Lannisters can afford to lose forces the Starks cannot. They have expressly explained that Robb wins every battle he fights but Tywin has turned it into a war of attrition. He would be an even bigger fool than you already think he is to engage in battle at this point.

4. The betrayal they are setting up on TV is the Boltons, because tvFreys and in large part book Freys are not the Big Evil. Take away the huge deal with guest rights and the Freys can almost be cut out of the story completely. This is good fat to trim when you are looking at adapting huge books into 10 hours of TV.

[Rashtibram]

It seems like there's one big disagreement here. Half the people think the RW is about the North falling, the other half think it is about Robb dying. I think it will work perfectly. We don't need a lot of unrecognizable names to know that the North is collapsing, they can show that with a montage of Frey men killing extras wearing fur and a battle outside which the North clearly loses. If they have Talisa, Robb and Cat die and some northern-looking extras make a last stand, it should have almost the same impact as in the books. My Unsullied friends like Robb, although they feel like in this season he's lost it, but certainly are still on Team Stark and will be shocked at his death.

[Cas Stark]

1. Hate the character all you want, but she has 3 possible outcomes that will all fit with the TV plot and narrative. She will either die pregnant at the RW and add a ton of weight. Or she will be revealed as a Lannister spy and explain and justify everything you hate about her. Or she will be handed over to the Boltons as fArya or the TV equivalent thereof and be far more effective in that role than Jayne Poole ever was.

2. None shown on screen yet this season... because what purpose would they serve? You can add 450 characters that get one line and get their name mentioned twice and add maybe 5% more weight to the tvRW or you can spend all of that time adding a lot of weight to characters that will matter in seasons 4, 5, and 6.

3. They addressed this. Tywin is moving his troops around and giving them worthless targets for one, but more importantly you seem to be leaving out the whole reason Eddmure is marrying a Frey in the first place i.e. the Lannisters can afford to lose forces the Starks cannot. They have expressly explained that Robb wins every battle he fights but Tywin has turned it into a war of attrition. He would be an even bigger fool than you already think he is to engage in battle at this point.

4. The betrayal they are setting up on TV is the Boltons, because tvFreys and in large part book Freys are not the Big Evil. Take away the huge deal with guest rights and the Freys can almost be cut out of the story completely. This is good fat to trim when you are looking at adapting huge books into 10 hours of TV.

She's going to die at the RW, anything else makes TV Robb even more of an idiot and a chump. Having her stay alive to marry Ramsey would be completely nuts of the show.

The purpose of Northern bannermen in the background is to build to the RW, its the same reason you saw Jory Cassel in the background in Season 1 and he had a few lines, so when he gets killed the viewer is sad. Certainly it makes more sense to have some northerners around than a bunch of whores in scene after scene or the replaying of the same scene again and again.

The reason to show Robb winning a battle this season is to remind the viewer that he's the Young Wolf who hasn't lost a battle and thus, again, made it more sad when he dies. All he has done this season is sit around talking to his family and execute Karstark.

[Rabid Grunt]

A few episodes ago: OMG they butchered Tormund he sucks in the show, y he no make me laugh?

A few episodes later, with a couple of minute long scenes: Oh, turns out he's actually like book Tormund.

Patience is a virtue.

[Gendels Children]

Guys. it will be awesome, don't worry. I'm sure they will show us a glimpse of Grey Wind in the next episode. We'll get Manderly's son and probably a few fierce looking, bearded mead drinking, northmen who say a joke or two. Then BAM! In two weeks they all get killed. It will shock the shit out of all the Unsullied Fans. It will shock us, the nerds, it will shock 'erbody.

I use to remember I was worried about the dragons. Will they be big puppets? Will it look crappy like the dragons on Merlin or Star Gate? And it was fine. The RW will play out fine.

god bless you, heres to hopping you are right

[lojzelote]

At this point, it is impossible that they can do justice to the Red Wedding. Even a wonderful, dramatic, tragic, sad, beautifully filmed TV RW will not do it justice because:

1. Robb is a dunse in the show who married a Volantis bimbo who doesn't know where Winterfell is.

2. He has no loyal bannermen with him at Riverrun, at all.

3. He has not won a battle on screen since? mid season last year.

If they keep Cat's line about her hair and begging for Robb's life, then it still has potential to be tear-jerking. Given, they may not, I wouldn't be suprised, but I'm not going to judge them for spoiling the RW (amongst other things) before the episode containing it was even aired.

This complaining about the speculation that we won't even see Cat and Robb next episode while it is just speculation (or is it not?) ... There's enough things to complain about without judging them for something we're not sure they have (or haven't) done yet.

Other than that, I must say I must be utterly heartless because I have never given a fig about Northern bannermen; what exactly makes them so much better than Lannister bannermen or Rivelander bannermen? Nothing, they're mostly minor characters we don't really know much about. So Wendel Manderly has got food stains on his clothes and laughts a lot, Dacey Mormont has a long face and looks pretty also in a dress, the Smalljon is loud and superstrong, ... Yeah, it's nice that Robb's bannermen in the book aren't completely faceless, but we simply cannot expect such a level of detail to create any attachment to these minor characters from the show. They would be just as good as random extras. Hey, if they kept the important bannermen (i.e. those who will probably have a role to play in the future books) like Maege Mormont, they would be bound to survive the RW anyway.

If it comes to Northern bannermen, the only thing I don't like is that they didn't keep the Greatjon, but mashed him up with the Blackfish instead.

ETA: grammar

[Gendels Children]

:agree:

This. So much this. I cannot believe the amount of nerd-rage for something that A) is 2 episodes away and B) has had multiple ways pointed out that the

haha NERD-RAGE :tantrum:

[Tquinn BC]

I think will all feel better after repressing this giant spoiler for i dont know... three years? five years? 10! FREAKIN' YEARS!

Once the RW happens, regardless of a lack of northern banner men, we can all take a sigh of relief, turn to our nonbookreader friends and be like "Oh, by the way now you will never be able to watch or read anything else because you'll then be like 'where's the dragons? where's the crippled children? the incest? Why are all these main characters still alive!?!?'"

[Kyoti]

She's going to die at the RW, anything else makes TV Robb even more of an idiot and a chump. Having her stay alive to marry Ramsey would be completely nuts of the show.

The purpose of Northern bannermen in the background is to build to the RW, its the same reason you saw Jory Cassel in the background in Season 1 and he had a few lines, so when he gets killed the viewer is sad. Certainly it makes more sense to have some northerners around than a bunch of whores in scene after scene or the replaying of the same scene again and again.

The reason to show Robb winning a battle this season is to remind the viewer that he's the Young Wolf who hasn't lost a battle and thus, again, made it more sad when he dies. All he has done this season is sit around talking to his family and execute Karstark.

In your opinion. You seem to have an unreasonable hatred of Talisa, or an unnatural love of Jayne Westerling. Either way she adds value to the show whether you see it or not.

I didn't pick up a single book until after Season 2. I did not give a crap as an unsullied view about Jorry dying. In fact I did not even know his name until I read the books. Again, a lot of screen time for minimal gain. I was more moved by Ros' death last episode than by Jorry.

Again, the point is to show the North is lost not that poor old Robb Stark is dead. Martyring him doesn't show how lost the north is or how much smarter than everyone else Tywin is, it just makes you sadder that your hero died.

[Rabid Grunt]

Also, while the Northern storyline is far from perfect, it still has had a tonne of epic moments: Whispering woods, "then we will kill them all", "the king in the North", Jaime and Cat conversing, Robb rinsing Jaime, Roose, arriving at Harenhall, Cat and Blackfish, Karstarks betrayal and beheading, the funeral...

And that music...

[Tquinn BC]

Remember D and D said they read this scene and then were like "we have to film this!" so if they have that much excitement how much worse can it get? (unless of course wights attack the twins, Ramsay rides in with theon on a collar to save robb while Tormound and Pod have a pissing contest)