[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[Ravi Seaworth]

:agree:

Readers hated the RW because it killed Robb and Cat, and the Stark children have lost the hope to return to their mother's arms and nobody would fight to reclaim their home for them anymore.

I don't remember any threads about people throwing their books across the room any other time when Northern bannermen died (e.g. Medger and Cley Cerwyn, or even poor old Rodrick Cassell).

I also agree with this view. I was rooting for the Starks, but what really irritated me was the injustice of the RW and the frustration for Arya not meeting her mother. I was hoping for that to happen since she left Harrenhal. To be honest, I didn't even memorize who were the most important bannermans.

I understand some people care about the details and GRRM himself reiterated that importance. But don't try to convince me that everyone, including non-readers, will not be as shocked with Robb's death if there are 20 instead of 100 guests in the wedding. The real issue, with which I have to agree, is that the show didn't make Robb to be sufficiently likeable for non-readers to care so much for him as they did for Ned, and they do now for Daenerys.

Maybe, this will all be for the better, since some people might become more interested in the story without having to watch Talissa's scenes anymore :dunno: (they will keep her in the cast, however).

[Kyoti]

They no longer care about the Starks since they are so boring and all the things that Robb does is moons over Talisa's ass.. No, it's the show's fault, not the viewers' fault..

Thank you for proving my point.

[ViserionsFire]

The show is purposefully downplaying the magical elements of the story, if you read any entertainment blogs/forums you would know how much hate there was for throwing a giant in the first episode, having 14 wargs would kill the show for a lot of people. Also, in about 2 episodes the Starks are going to be pushed pretty far into the background, the show HAS to focus on other characters, and even if they didn't what would they show? Robb tromping through a field with Grey Wind? Cat whining about her lost kids?

The bottom line is this episode did not ruin the RW or the show, you just have no patience or lack the understanding of how an adaptation has to play out on TV.

I didn't see anything written by any source that hated on showing a Giant in ep01. In fact just the opposite. Not only that but you can go to Season 3, Valar Dohaeris and seach the threads and you won't find anything negative being said of showing the Giant.

This link may help.

Also, if you think that critics are upset about giants, what do you think that they're gonna say about Cat after the RW.

What makes me question the writers is what many on this tread have said. They've given so much screen time to Alfi when in the book, after the sacking of Winterfell, we didn't see him for 2 books. They created Ros to basically show how she could be Joff's arrow cushion. They've given us repeatedly Tyrion and Shea's same old BS in every episode this season and in general invented dialogue that is not as instructive and succinct as the dialogue in the books. Perhaps if Talisa is in fact a spy for Tywin, the RW can have an impact as tragic as was developed in the books

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Thank you for proving my point.

What did he prove exactly?

[Kyoti]

You are contradicting yourself.

You are being offensive, again. They are very invested in the show. They can follow the plot, they understand what is going on. My friends can perfectly name secondary and minor characters. They are invested in the show. They are not bitching or whining about it. They just don't care about some specific storylines. But they can tell you what is going on in those storylines. They are invested in the show. Some people don't care about Robb and Cat because it's obvious that they are losing, because they are not interesting, they are very boring. But they care about Arya for instance, who is a Stark. They are invested in the show, and they are not idiots.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and that makes you and idiot IMO.

I don't think you know what contradiction is, but if you'd like to point out the one I made please do so.

I am sorry if you are offended by me lumping your friends in with everyone else's generic "friends that hate the show now because Robb and Cat aren't front and center" but that doesn't make those generic friends that everyone all up in a tizzy about this seem to have any less idiotic. Anyone willing to disregard 2 seasons of development because of half a season of slow story telling should probably find a less mentally intensive show to follow. Again, I am glad that your specific friends aren't these type of people (except for them disregarding 2 seasons of development because of a slow 2/3rds of one season, but I'll ignore that contradiction).

[HopeForSpring]

I don't think that view is shared by many people at all. The ones who share it sure seem to be passionate about it, but Robb has been portrayed to be everything you could hope for in a King in the North, a brilliant tactician, a just ruler, a caring brother and son, and a noble and honorable person.

/snip

Just like his Dad, yay! Oh... wait his noble act of not bedding and then leaving JW shows that just like his Dad he has a lack of political savy that will get him killed... sigh. Oh and then it turns out the girls mother was in league with Tywin!!! That killed me. It was why I spent a long time hoping the hips-don't-lie theory was true... sigh...

So it is just that this thread is about the i can haz bannermenz part.

rawr.

[Kyoti]

So it is just that this thread is about the i can haz bannermenz part.

This thread seems to be about a bunch of people who are afraid that the RW won't live up to their... I mean their "friends" expectations and are grabbing for anything that might make it a little bit better, whether that be 1% better or 5% better and to hell with the rest of the show because nothing is more important right now than the RW.

It's like a bunch of people accidentally watched Star Wars in chronological order and now they 2/3rds through Empire Strikes Back nitpicking how much better they could have done with the big reveal that hasn't come on screen yet.

[teemo]

I'm not a big D&D fan by any means, but considering that the RW is what inspired them to take on this project, I'm going to at least give them the benefit of a doubt. I think if they really give Robb and Cat a lot of screentime in episode 8 it can make up for some of their mistakes. If we don't see them again until the RW, I believe that's an issue....

[Ser Cookie Monster]

I don't think you know what contradiction is, but if you'd like to point out the one I made please do so.

You said everything was about showing that Tywin is the greatest tactician ever. Not by bulding how awesome Robb is. However, the more you bulid Robb up, the more badass Tywin looks. That is a contradiction.

You said is not important for Robb to be a badass this season and you said:

Also, yes, your friends are idiots if they no longer care about the Starks because Cat and Robb have been in a mire this season. That shows a complete lack of investment in the show and an inability to follow a complex plot. To bitch and whine about something that you aren't invested in and/or cannot follow makes you an idiot IMO.

You're saying that people are idiots for not being able to "follow" a complex plot (when they do, they are just not as invested in that plot as they are in other plots). You are saying that if they are invested in another plot just because is more intertaining than the Starks, and the Starks aren't badasses right now, then they are idiots. BUT YOU said:

The reason I picked up the damn books was because of the epic badass Robb Stark was turning out to be on the show. I picked up this entire series and read it twice between seasons 2 and 3 because of Robb Stark

You followed the story, and got more invested in it just because Robb was intertaining and a badass. So, I guess you're calling yourself and idiot, right?

I am sorry if you are offended by me lumping your friends in with everyone else's generic "friends that hate the show now because Robb and Cat aren't front and center" but that doesn't make those generic friends that everyone all up in a tizzy about this seem to have any less idiotic. Anyone willing to disregard 2 seasons of development because of half a season of slow story telling should probably find a less mentally intensive show to follow. Again, I am glad that your specific friends aren't these type of people (except for them disregarding 2 seasons of development because of a slow 2/3rds of one season, but I'll ignore that contradiction).

LMFAO. Again, they can follow the show perfectly fine. They understand everything that is going on. They can name minor characters. It's not too complex for them, and their brain doesn't hurt when they watch the show. They just find some characters more interesting than Robb and Cat, and they are more invested in other characters than in Robb and Cat.

[Runaway Penguin]

In my eyes, Red Wedding was shock because of Robb's and Cat's death, but also because of the wanton widespread slaughter. There were people already appearing in the past (even if some not directly in the scene) - Greatjon, the Manderly, Smalljon trying to protect Robb... It has bigger impact to do such deeds by characters you at least recall seeing before than by random extras.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Look if you think that the RW is just about Cat and Robb dying and that the entire nobility of the North is not important. Then seriously, the story went right over your head. I don't need to debate this with you, because what's the point, it be like me debating on the merits of Ramsay Snow with a guy who says "he wasn't so bad, I didn't find anything he did to Theon all that terrible". I mean, what am I going to say to someone like that? I think we'd be best off putting each other on ignore at that point.

[Greenseer_Wolf]

I think most of these comments are just biased from almost everyone here reading the book. I'm pretty sure the average viewer will find it just as impacting..maybe for different reasons but still.

[AliKat]

I still can't believe they've gone from Robb re: Cat in the book "No one calls my Lady of Winterfell a traitor in my presence" to him throwing her in a cell in Harrenhall. Tragic. And the Blackfish didn't give a shit about her releasing Jaime; he went straight to embrace her when they returned to Riverrun. Christ!

Robb executing Karstark despite the cost to himself was, in my opinion, his best moment in the entire book. He was absolutely at his most Ned-like, his bravest, and most honorable. You knew that he didn't want to do it, but he did it anyway, because what Karstark did had been a violation of fundamental principles of right and wrong/honor. It contrasts beautifully to what is done to him, in total violation of those same principles. And I am NO Stark supporter. The most important part is that he doesn't hesitate to do it (in my opinion) primarily because of the cost to himself and his military readiness or whatever; he hesitates to do it precisely because Karstark fought for him loyally until now and he understands his grief and rage. Sometimes, I just wonder if they even get these books at all.

In the books the Karstarks had already deserted him when he executed Lord Karstark. In the show they had Talisa interupt Cat to warn him they would desert him and then at the end of the episode he's like 'well they deserted me' and acts surprised. Then Talisa proceeds to say she doesn't know where Winterfell was. That's when I really got pissed about them messing up Robb's storyline. Talisa gave him advice more than once before she laughingly admitted she didn't know where Winterfell was. That to me was the moment that made Robb look like an idiot more than anything they did/said on the show.

[AliKat]

I'm not a big D&D fan by any means, but considering that the RW is what inspired them to take on this project, I'm going to at least give them the benefit of a doubt. I think if they really give Robb and Cat a lot of screentime in episode 8 it can make up for some of their mistakes. If we don't see them again until the RW, I believe that's an issue....

There is a clip of Tyrion saying 'The North will never forget this' so maybe it is made clear in the show how much of a slaughter of the northmen it truly was and not just Robb/Cat.

I'm not ready though. :bawl:

[lojzelote]

Look if you think that the RW is just about Cat and Robb dying and that the entire nobility of the North is not important. Then seriously, the story went right over your head. I don't need to debate this with you, because what's the point, it be like me debating on the merits of Ramsay Snow with a guy who says "he wasn't so bad, I didn't find anything he did to Theon all that terrible". I mean, what am I going to say to someone like that? I think we'd be best off putting each other on ignore at that point.

Thanks for being so nice.

I confess that the whole story went completely over my head. I wasn't mourning for Northern bannermen, not more than for countless peasants who die like fleas. Is is horrible such thing has happened? Sure. Was I invested in any of those characters? No, not really.

Btw, I don't happen to believe that Theon deserved Ramsay torturing him. He deserved a clean death. And as far as I am concerned, that is what Mr. "They-were-only-the-miller's-boys" still deserves.

ETA: At this point, it would more a blessing than a punishment, anyway.

Ramsay, I hope, will be devoured by his own dogs.

[Kyoti]

Some stuff

Um, me saying that Robb is sufficiently built up is not a contradiction at all. You are not mistaken that building up Robb MORE would make Tywin appear MORE badass, but it is not needed.

Also, intertaining is not a word.

Let me try and make this as simple as possible so perhaps this time there will not be any lack of comprehension. Cat + Robb = Main Characters in season 1 + 2 . No matter what has happened so far in Season 3 it does not negate who they were in those seasons. Going from "ZOMG Robb and Cat FTW" to "who are Robb and Cat, they are boring" = idiot.

[Ravi Seaworth]

Look if you think that the RW is just about Cat and Robb dying and that the entire nobility of the North is not important. Then seriously, the story went right over your head. I don't need to debate this with you, because what's the point, it be like me debating on the merits of Ramsay Snow with a guy who says "he wasn't so bad, I didn't find anything he did to Theon all that terrible". I mean, what am I going to say to someone like that? I think we'd be best off putting each other on ignore at that point.

The story did not go right over my head, because I picked that. Simply, I didn't care that much. I remember reading about the death of some of the mentioned bannerman, but I never got to memorize their names (after the first read), let alone to get emotionally involved. Furthermore, the TV show is not supposed to portray every single aspect of an event and every dimension of a character, since it may not be feasible to do so. Priorities need to be established. If you think that some aspect such as the death of so many bannermans is so important that it should be a priority over other things, then you have the right to criticize D&D for not emphasizing it as they should. However, that does not give you the right to impose your view on others or to state them as fact and attack users for not agreeing with them.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

First of all, your "Some stuff" made me laugh (in a good way)

Um, me saying that Robb is sufficiently built up is not a contradiction at all. You are not mistaken that building up Robb MORE would make Tywin appear MORE badass, but it is not needed.

Oh, but that's not what you said, you said:

The purpose, IMO, of Robb Stark is to illustrate that Tywin Lannister is the greatest tactician alive and possibly the greatest since Aegon the Conqueror and you cannot beat him at that game. .......... It doesn't matter how big you build up Robb Stark his one and only mistake that matters is that he took on Tywin Lannister in the first place................................

You never said Robb has been enough build up. So, if the point of Robb is to make Tywin the greatest tactian ever, then why not build him up more? That way Tywin will look a really great tactician, not and average one who was better than a inmature, stupid, horny young adult (since he is not a teenager in the show). That's what he looks like right now. And you're right, I'm not mistaken. ;)

Also, intertaining is not a word.

Oh sorry, for my bad spelling.

Let me try and make this as simple as possible so perhaps this time there will not be any lack of comprehension. Cat + Robb = Main Characters in season 1 + 2 . No matter what has happened so far in Season 3 it does not negate who they were in those seasons. Going from "ZOMG Robb and Cat FTW" to "who are Robb and Cat, they are boring" = idiot.

Cat + Robb = not the only main characters of season 1 and 2. I never said my friends don't know who Cat and Robb are. And about thinking they are boring now, let me ask you a serious question: Did you find Dany staying in Meereen, and Tyrion wandering in Essos the bomb, and incredibly interesting?

[Joyful Union]

Cat + Robb = not the only main characters of season 1 and 2. I never said my friends don't know who Cat and Robb are. And about thinking they are boring now, let me ask you a serious question: Did you find Dany staying in Meereen, and Tyrion wandering in Essos the bomb, and incredibly interesting?

It really comes down to personal preference. I have friends who absolutely hate Dany, even now that her storyline has picked up. I also have friends who like Robb, and think he's badass (mostly due to the Karstark incident). Robb also has loads of fans due to Richard Madden's attractiveness alone. There's so many story lines to get attached to, and there are non book readers who enjoy this storyline, as there always will be with any storyline.

I'm confused about this last part. Do you mean that people find Robb's story as boring as Dany in Mereen and Tyrion rollin' on the river? Because, no offense, I'd have to accuse you of being on crack.

[King Cheops]

This board is so funny because so many people are butt hurt that <insert random useless character's name> who they loved or <insert random plot theory dependent on some throwaway exposition> was not included.