[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[Winter In My Heart]

I assume that all they'll do is have Catelyn insist that Robb keep some of his men nearby him at all times. Probably at the same time that they cram in her insisting that he remembers to ask for food immediately. I doubt they'll waste time naming them/saying what house they belong to.

True. It also bugs me they haven't placed any emphases on how important the Guest Rights are. They've had three seasons to do so any there has literally been nothing. I'm also annoyed they haven't showed Greatjon. He was in season one and just completely disappeared after that.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

Hmm, my thoughts on the lack of northern bannermen relate directly to the entire king in the north storyline.

In the books, their presence added weight to Robb's campaign; fierce, loyal Northmen, proclaiming the young son of their dead liege-lord king, and following him south to seek revenge and rescue the new kings sisters. Occasionally, they even spoke and added a certain flavor to Robb's story, as told through the eyes and thoughts of his mother, who's tragedy was also a major influence in the story. Over time, it builds up, you see how much these people loved and supported the Starks and their cause. It gains momentum and then *bang!!!* everybody dies, even his mighty Direwolf that has become feared by his enemies.

When I read the Red wedding, I almost stopped reading the series altogether. It was that tragic; that horrible. This young king, who's story I'd been invested in for two and half long books is suddenly gone, and his poor mother, and all of his followers and supporters completely betrayed. It was awful to me...yet compelling enough for me to keep on reading hah!

Contrasted with the show, particularly the last two seasons, we basically get a petulant idiot older king, a mother who's story, while tragic still, is that of a blithering idiot, zero Northmen supporting his cause and little of his Direwolf.

As I said, reading the red wedding made me want to stop reading the series. Is it not odd that, with the way it's been set-up on the show, if its not pulled off right, it might just get me to stop watching the show too, though for entirely different reasons?

[tmug]

• the Karstarks suddenly became 'half of [the north's] forces' and Robb's decision as a result being that much more idiotic.
  

I totally agree. He has been portrayed so far as this undefeated strategic leader that has never lost a battle. The book acknowledges that Robb has some short-sightedness just as his Father did before him which ultimately led to his demise as well. And just an episode earlier we get Robb/Blackfish scene where they are treating Edmure like the dolt! Logisitically speaking, you behead Lord Karstark who has the loyalty of HALF of your forces. HALF! You married dishonored your own House by going against your word for some 'foreign bitch'. And then you try to reconcile at the last minute because you just realized what an idiotic move you just made, sending the Karstarks home pissed off. Only if they would have mentioned that the Frey's soldiers also left Robb's side as in the books, Robb would be looking even dumber then he does now.

I think Arya put it best when she said 'loyalty' killed her father, but also add 'honor' to that as well. Robb lost this war from Day 1 because of his stupid honor and justice morals. It was these things that made him behead ole Karstark, while Cat, Talisa, and Edmure's solution of keeping Karstark as a hostage seemed like the best solution to the everyone, even the viewer. If Robb was this stupid in Season 1, he would've accepted the challenge from the Kingslayer and Robb would've died in single combat.

Tywin (and Bolton/Freys for that matter) don't abide by these creeds, that is why he was able to triumph. That is how you win a war, ruthless and cunning. All in all, Tywin seems in the right here. Would you rather kill a majority of your enemy in a loathsome, dishonest way and end the war quickly? or would you want to fight it out a few more years and have another hundred thousand men, women, and children die? Same principal for ending WWII in the Pacific...

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Tywin's method leads to short term success, but long term failure. Everything Tywin has built is crashing down around his children, but the wolves will come again to Winterfell.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

I think there are more people out there that will be upset with the characters dying than you think. Even people who don't care for the characters. If it's done well.

Even if people think that Robb is a stupid sod he is still one of the 'good guys', a Stark, the 'hero', young, in love, soon-to-be-father, the underdog etc. And Cat is the mother of all the kids! And so on. Stating the obvious but 90% of the viewers out there do not analyse like here or the TWoP board. They won't care if a few unnamed faces bite it; they will when characters they have got to know well over the last three years (that's a long time!) go out fighting. And I'm sure the scene will be milking it.

*sigh* Didn't you read what I wrote? Yes, people will be upset, feel bad, sad, shocked, surprised. Specially because he's a Stark, and they will be sick of the Starks always losing. But will they be as sad as they were when Ned died? Will they cry, curse, and yell, like they did for Ned, or many book readers actually did? I doubt it. The reaction might be quite significant, but not as significant as Ned's beheading; when it actually could have been, and when it was for many readers. The scenes will make it look bloody, and hard to watch, but not emotionally gut wrenching.

Pretty sure Twitter will explode and I'm hoping for a few OTT YouTube partner reaction vids as with Ned. I think also the wolf's head bit will really upset & shock people too (asuming it is in). That could be pretty horrific.

He already knows Robb is going to die. He was spoiled. His reaction won't be the same as with Ned.

I was thinking about it for days when a relatively minor but longstanding character in Battlestar killed herself out of the blue. And this is going to be far worse.

Did you cry? And well if she was relatively minor, then wouldn't the Northern bannermen add much more emotional value to the RW?

I'm willing to be proved wrong also, but I see no reason for pessimism at all.

I'm not pessimistic, I'm realistic. And I'm willing to be proved wrong as well. We'll come here, and you can tell me "I told you so", or I can say it to you.

Your on the wrong site. Leave while you still can.

Perhaps you should take this advice. Or maybe not, discussion is fun. :P

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Tywin's method leads to short term success, but long term failure. Everything Tywin has built is crashing down around his children, but the wolves will come again to Winterfell.

It's not his fault that his children are incompetents who weren't able to learn from him. Except from Tyrion, but he still lacks Tywin's seriousness. He mocks everything, and doesn't know how to control his tongue, and that will cost him. Tywin's children are demolishing his empire themselves.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

No, Tywin planted the seeds of his house's downfall by pursuing the path of fear. He wanted his house to be feared, and they are, but they are not loved, and they are not trusted That's why the moment they show weakness. the knives comes out.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

No, Tywin planted the seeds of his house's downfall by pursuing the path of fear. He wanted his house to be feared, and they are, but they are not loved, and they are not trusted That's why the moment they show weakness. the knives comes out.

If his kids knew how to act, they would be able to keep the reputation of the House even in moments of weakness. But they don't, and people know it.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

His kids were the product of his failure also, they lived in fear of him as well. Tywin's method are not conducive to sustained success, which is why all his accomplishment were in the end empty.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

So somebody compiled the minutes distribution of the season so far.

Robb/Catelyn has gotten 34 minutes through 7 episodes. 34 minutes to set up the Red Wed and probably 10 of them were Robb/Talisa moments.

http://i.imgur.com/VwRFhmI.png

And by individual characters:

http://i.imgur.com/xIIltX4.png

Cat has had fewer minutes than Theon, and Robb has had 1 more minute than Margaery.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

They didn't live in fear of him. They were too confident that their father's name would always fix all their problems. So they didn't see the need of learning from the lessons Tywin was trying to teach them. He would have succeeded if his kids would have learned, and knew how to continue his legacy.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

So somebody compiled the minutes distribution of the season so far.

http://i.imgur.com/V...I.png[/imgRobb/Catelyn has gotten 34 minutes through 7 episodes. 34 minutes to set up the Red Wed and probably 10 of them were Robb/Talisa moments.And by individual characters:http://i.imgur.com/xIIltX4.png[/img]

So Cat has had fewer minutes than Theon, and Robb has had 1 more minute than Margaery.

ugh. I can't believe this. King's Landing is the one with most time, when the chapters of KL are not many at this point in the books. Theon has as much time as Sansa and Stannis??? and more than Bran and the NW???..... ugh.........

edit:

Cersei has more time than Robb and Cat..... Cersei??!

Margaery just one minute less than Robb???

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

You have completely missed the point of Tywin's story arc. His death at the hands of his own son, his corpse stinking the Sept of Baelor, the ghost of his wife showing up at his wake to mock at his futility, and his family's dominance completely crumbling.

[Winter In My Heart]

So somebody compiled the minutes distribution of the season so far.

Robb/Catelyn has gotten 34 minutes through 7 episodes. 34 minutes to set up the Red Wed and probably 10 of them were Robb/Talisa moments.

http://i.imgur.com/VwRFhmI.png

And by individual characters:

http://i.imgur.com/xIIltX4.png

Cat has had fewer minutes than Theon, and Robb has had 1 more minute than Margaery.

34 minutes in close to 7 hours. Yeah that's such a great set up to the RW....

[Ser Cookie Monster]

You have completely missed the point of Tywin's story arc. His death at the hands of his own son, his corpse stinking the Sept of Baelor, the ghost of his wife showing up at his wake to mock at his futility, and his family's dominance completely crumbling.

Yes, I understand that. But what I mean is he would have succeeded in the long term even after dead, and his House wouldn't be crumbling if his children would have learned from him, and knew how to continue what he left.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

34 minutes in close to 7 hours. Yeah that's such a great set up to the RW....

Yeah, great job setting up what is supposed to be the best scene of the season, the most tragic event of the whole series, and the reason why ASoIaF became and adaptation in the first place. Good job D&D........

[Winter In My Heart]

Yeah, great job setting up what is supposed to be the best scene of the season, the most tragic event of the whole series, and the reason why ASoIaF became and adaptation in the first place. Good job D&D........

Nah.. It's great job D&D. :rofl:

[Cas Stark]

I can't even believe that is right! 34 minutes on the Robb/Cat story the entire season? Gods be good. Crazy

[ladyinblack]

The biggest thing they've screwed up for future stories is not showing how loyal the north REMAINS to the Starks and how they never forget what Bolton/Freys have done. The show makes it look like everything is about betraying Robb because of Talisa but Bolton/Frey/Lannister betrayed the North and the Starks and that is NOT done. When you have Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont (two children!) reminding Davos and Stannis that they'll stay loyal to the Starks no matter what and the northern mountain clans are marching in a blizzard to save the Ned's daughter in the books, Manderly's risking his plans to get Davos to find Rickon, and on the show its like 'oh the starks except Sansa are dead? oh well' They have not shown at all how loyal to the Starks the North is. And that makes me feel like the show has failed with their storyline. Not to mention the fact that the Riverlords were pretty damn loyal to the Tullys and Robb. Seriously when I see how much time they spent on the Theon storyline this season when it could have been shown very limited this season then the majority of it next season (still long before he was NEEDED) it makes me mad. I agree Theon needed to shown but at the expense of characters who are dying this season - no, didn't need to be that way. And geez I love Queen of Thorns too but she doesn't have to have 5-10 mins an episode showing how much smarter than she is than the men of King's Landing to get their money's worth!

Amen to all this

I am so disappointed with this lead up to the RW. My unsullied daughter kept asking questions about Talisa & why Robb would hook up w her. And I bought her the books explaining Talisa is not in the actual story--read

On the Freys departure...why couldn't they have added the scene where Cat hears commotion outside at Riverrun & looks out the window & sees men packing up, leaving, riding over a tossed aside Direwolf banner & notices the banner they're flying is the Twin Towers of the Freys? She had a poignant scene w Blackfish in that same room.

[Gonzalo]

I totally agree. He has been portrayed so far as this undefeated strategic leader that has never lost a battle. The book acknowledges that Robb has some short-sightedness just as his Father did before him which ultimately led to his demise as well. And just an episode earlier we get Robb/Blackfish scene where they are treating Edmure like the dolt! Logisitically speaking, you behead Lord Karstark who has the loyalty of HALF of your forces. HALF! You married dishonored your own House by going against your word for some 'foreign bitch'. And then you try to reconcile at the last minute because you just realized what an idiotic move you just made, sending the Karstarks home pissed off. Only if they would have mentioned that the Frey's soldiers also left Robb's side as in the books, Robb would be looking even dumber then he does now.

I think Arya put it best when she said 'loyalty' killed her father, but also add 'honor' to that as well. Robb lost this war from Day 1 because of his stupid honor and justice morals. It was these things that made him behead ole Karstark, while Cat, Talisa, and Edmure's solution of keeping Karstark as a hostage seemed like the best solution to the everyone, even the viewer. If Robb was this stupid in Season 1, he would've accepted the challenge from the Kingslayer and Robb would've died in single combat.

Tywin (and Bolton/Freys for that matter) don't abide by these creeds, that is why he was able to triumph. That is how you win a war, ruthless and cunning. All in all, Tywin seems in the right here. Would you rather kill a majority of your enemy in a loathsome, dishonest way and end the war quickly? or would you want to fight it out a few more years and have another hundred thousand men, women, and children die? Same principal for ending WWII in the Pacific...

Avoid war crime with another war crime? nice