Olenna's Targaryen Prince: Duncan the Small?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys I think you might be the reigning board expert on dates/ages. Sometimes knowing a semi-precise date rather than a range of +/- a few years makes an enormous difference while theorizing or playing ASOIAF detective.

:D

I thank you, kind Ser.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys, you forgot to add Aerion's son as a possible match. He would have even been much closer to Olenna's age, since he was most likely born in 232/233, whereas Egg's eldest son could have been born in 320s or even earlier. He has a family when he ascends the Iron Throne, and Princess Rhaelle is familiar enough with Aemon to nickname him 'Uncle Maester' which indicates that Aemon spend enough time with Aegon before he left for the Wall (most likely at Maekar's court, after the death of Daeron, whom Aemon served at his keep (most likely Dragonstone).

We don't know if Rhaelle was one of Egg's younger or older children (we don't even know how many daughters he had), but I guess she, too, must have been born in the 320s to be familiar enough with Aemon about the time he left for the Wall.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys, you forgot to add Aerion's son as a possible match. He would have even been much closer to Olenna's age, since he was most likely born in 232/233, whereas Egg's eldest son could have been born in 320s or even earlier. He has a family when he ascends the Iron Throne, and Princess Rhaelle is familiar enough with Aemon to nickname him 'Uncle Maester' which indicates that Aemon spend enough time with Aegon before he left for the Wall (most likely at Maekar's court, after the death of Daeron, whom Aemon served at his keep (most likely Dragonstone).

We don't know if Rhaelle was one of Egg's younger or older children (we don't even know how many daughters he had), but I guess she, too, must have been born in the 320s to be familiar enough with Aemon about the time he left for the Wall.

*facepalm* Yes, completely forgotten about Aerion's son there for a minute. He was an infant when Maekar died in 233 AC, meaning he was born in 232/233 AC indeed, and thus much more closer in age to Olenna than Duncan, Jaehaerys or the 3rd son. That could explain Olenna's statement about Aerion. She might not have wanted to marry Aerion's son because of Aerion's reputation.

I don't understand about "he has a family when he ascends to the Iron Throne". You are talking about Egg here, right? Because we don't know, nor do we have any indication about, when Duncan married his Jeyne. Egg's three sons were born before Egg became King, however (at least 2 out of 3), and Rhaelle having been born before Egg became king is also very likely.

Aemon left for the Wall in 233 AC (he stated he was 35 when he left), so you are correct, I think, in saying that Rhaelle must have spend some significant time around Aemon before he left. Though I'd say she was still a rather small girl, referring to Aemon as "Uncle Maester". Though it would also be possible that Aemon was just remembering Rhaelle as a little girl, and that she had stopped calling him such when he actually did leave for the Wall.

But how could I have forgotten about Aerion's son....? :stunned: Feeling ashamed now a little....

[Lord Varys]

Yes, I meant Egg when speaking about 'a family'. That's also from Aemon, who described Egg as having a family when he ascended the Iron Throne at the age of 33.

I got the vibe from the 'Uncle Maester' thing that Rhaelle was close enough to Aemon to nickname him. He was not some distant 'Uncle Aemon' but 'Uncle Maester'. And since Aemon and Egg were close as children, it's very likely that they (and later on Egg's family as well) kept close ties until Aemon decided to go to the Wall.

Rhaelle should be older than 2-3 years old to nickname her uncle, so 225-228 could be the time of her birth. That is, if she is not Egg's oldest child. We don't know when Egg met and married his wife, but the fact that he married for love could indicate that they met each other while Egg was traveling with Dunk. I don't think she was a common girl, but it's not impossible. The best time for a passionate marriage for love in Westeros would be 13-17/8 I think. I don't think Egg married in his twenties, since Maekar most certainly would have forced him to marry his sister by then. And if Egg married early, then his oldest child may have been born in the late 210s.

As to any children of Prince Duncan:

I really had never thought about them, but the fact that Duncan did actually marry Jenny strongly suggests that they did have children, too. They would have no claims to the Iron Throne, and could still be out there, unaccounted for. Never thought about Varys being one of them, but that would certainly be a possibility, just as he could be descended from the mystery prince (who was also married). We also don't know who was present at Summerhall. Jenny and Duncan most likely died there, but we don't know if (all of) their children were there, nor do we know if the mystery prince and his family were there. Jaehaerys, Rhaella, and Aerys seem to have been there, too, and they all survived.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, I meant Egg when speaking about 'a family'. That's also from Aemon, who described Egg as having a family when he ascended the Iron Throne at the age of 33.

I got the vibe from the 'Uncle Maester' thing that Rhaelle was close enough to Aemon to nickname him. He was not some distant 'Uncle Aemon' but 'Uncle Maester'. And since Aemon and Egg were close as children, it's very likely that they (and later on Egg's family as well) kept close ties until Aemon decided to go to the Wall.

Yes, I can see that happening as well.

Rhaelle should be older than 2-3 years old to nickname her uncle, so 225-228 could be the time of her birth. That is, if she is not Egg's oldest child. We don't know when Egg met and married his wife, but the fact that he married for love could indicate that they met each other while Egg was traveling with Dunk. I don't think she was a common girl, but it's not impossible. The best time for a passionate marriage for love in Westeros would be 13-17/8 I think. I don't think Egg married in his twenties, since Maekar most certainly would have forced him to marry his sister by then. And if Egg married early, then his oldest child may have been born in the late 210s.

Aegon was born in 200 AC, and he was 23 years old when he had his second son, Jaehaerys. Duncan would have been born within a few years before Jaehaerys most likely, so around 220 AC. I'd say marrying for love indicates Aegon marrying later than the Targaryen princes usually do. Aegon IV and Naerys were teens when they married, Aegon II was younger, Rhaenyra was a teenager, Rhaegar was in his late teens, Aerys and Rhaella were teens, Maegor got married when he was 13. Sure, some of these examples were married young to keep the line from dying out, but still.

Jaehaerys married for love as well, and his son was born in 243 AC, when Jaehaerys was 20. Rhaella, I estimate, was a year or two older than Aerys. So I'd say that marrying for love would make you around 18 years old, but not much younger.

As to any children of Prince Duncan:

I really had never thought about them, but the fact that Duncan did actually marry Jenny strongly suggests that they did have children, too. They would have no claims to the Iron Throne, and could still be out there, unaccounted for. Never thought about Varys being one of them, but that would certainly be a possibility, just as he could be descended from the mystery prince (who was also married). We also don't know who was present at Summerhall. Jenny and Duncan most likely died there, but we don't know if (all of) their children were there, nor do we know if the mystery prince and his family were there. Jaehaerys, Rhaella, and Aerys seem to have been there, too, and they all survived.

The official app has confirmed that Varys is actually from Lys, so that seems to rule out that he's a son of Duncan (the app states that Varys is from Lyseni origin; Varys being an eunuch is also confirmed there).

I didn't know Rhaella was at Summerhall? Where is that quote from?

[Lord Thornhart]

I don't think Egg would have had a goal in marrying Duncan to Olenna because he let his sons marry whoever they wanted.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't think Egg would have had a goal in marrying Duncan to Olenna because he let his sons marry whoever they wanted.

But Aegon at first wanted to choose a wife for his sons. And marrying one of his children to Olenna would have given him more control over the Redwyne fleet (Olenna is a Redwyne by birth). Aegon would not have had that advantage if he wanted to arrange a marriage between Olenna and Aerion's son.

Also, we hear nothing about Aerion's son anymore, so it would be strange that, if he was the Prince Olenna was supposed to marry, Aegon did not marry him into another noble house.

In any case, there are four candidates now, the way I see it. (1) Aerion's son, (2) Duncan the Small, (3) Jaehaerys II, (4) Egg's 3rd son.

Aerion's son would have been the closest in age to Olenna. In this case, I can see she would actually have tried to stop the marriage from happing herself (due to the wonderful reputation Aerion had).

For any of Egg's children, it would most likely have been them who halted the marriage, by marrying a girl of their own choosing instead of having an arranged marriage. That would explain Olenna's nickname, and it would not be out of character for her to be too proud to admit something like this.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Interesting discussion. I have a few (possibly.incoherent while.i forst write them) thoughts. Obviously there is no way she could have backed out of the marriage gracefully without angering the royal family, which suggests one of three things imo: 1) the Prince backed out on the marriage, not Olenna 2) Her Prince died or was murdered 3) there was only talk of a marriage, never an actual betrothal.

1) Would make sense if Duncan was her Prince, because we know he married Jenny of Oldstones and gave up his claim to the throne. Olenna would have good reason to not let people know she was spurned by her intended, hence the lie that she ended the marriage plans. Whats more, House Redwyne seems sufficiently powerful to provide a partner for the Crown Prince, and if the marriage talks were before the last Blackfyre Rebellion, its possible that rumours from Essos had reached Aegon, and he saw the necessity of the Redwyne fleet.

2) The murdered part was admittedly just crackpot, but if Olenna and her family were reluctant for her to marry he son of Aerion its possible they could have poisoned him/had him poisoned to prevent the marriage. A more likely scenario than that is that Aerion's son, or whichever Prince it was, died of natural causes or something similar. I'm not clear on the timeline, but I guess the Blackfyre Rebellion would have been too late for the Prince to die in? But as we know, sickness can carry away royals as much as commoners. Its entirely possible Olenna's intended died. However, that presents the question of why she would lie about it.

3) I self explanatory, but not something I feel is what happened.

[Lord Varys]

I think Rhaella was at Summerhall because it's possible (or at least hinted at) that Rhaegar was born when the tragedy happened. Thus Rhaella being there is much more likely than Aerys. And I suspect that Jaehaerys got disfigured/injured (concealed arm on the portrait) when he saved his daughter from whatever happened there...

I don't think we can say that the Targaryens always married very young. The marriages are arranged, and they tend to happen in the time nobles to marry in Westeros (i.e. around the time they grow of age, sometimes before they are 16, sometimes shortly thereafter). If I remember the RPG guide correctly, then a girl is fit for marriage as soon as she can conceive, although it's not really 'proper' to marry her off during her 'maiden years' (i.e. the time until she is officially a woman grown).

Marriages at the age of 13 are exceptional but not unheard of. Thus I think Maegor/Aenys' sister and Aegon/Naerys do stand out, but are not out of line, especially not since Aegon/Naerys were supposed to ensure a continuation of the Targaryen when they were married to each other. Maegor obviously considered himself to be a very manly man at a very early age, and Visenya surely pressed things to in favor of him continuing the incest practices.

The really early Targaryen marriages would be Aegon III/Jaehaera, and perhaps also Daeron I. Although we don't yet know if he married as king or while his father was still alive (I favor the former, although it's possible that Aegon arranged the marriage and chose Daeron's bride-to-be).

If Egg is an example, then the incest matches are planed at a very early age, but are then put on hold until the children are old enough, as long as 'matters of state' don't dictate early marriages.

If my gut feeling is right and Egg encounters his future queen on his travels with Dunk he would most likely marry young if he marries her right on the spot in Tyrion-like manner. And Egg does not strike me as this reckless - he may change somewhat when he hits adolescence heads on, but not that much - he thinks before he acts. More importantly, I can't see Dunk allowing him to go through with this, especially not since he will be the one to face Prince Maekar afterwards... I'm rather inclined to believe that Egg meets his future wife on his travels, falls in love with her, and promises to marry her, and then refuses to marry any of his sisters upon his return to court/Summerhall. The original plan in THK seems to be that Dunk & Egg hit the road for only 1-2 years (and I don't see Egg marrying at the age of 12-3 when he is still traveling with Dunk), and then to return to Summerhall. Things may happen to change those, drawing out the travels a little bit, but I'm sure that Egg is eager to go to KL when he is about 14 or so, to help Aerys/Bloodraven/Maekar against the threats they are facing, especially if Bittersteel's Blackfyre rebellions happen (mostly) throughout the reign of Aerys I.

If Egg has already a woman in mind, he could marry her on the very day he turns 16. It will be interesting to find out who she is. Could be pretty much anyone, although I doubt she will be a commoner...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think Rhaella was at Summerhall because it's possible (or at least hinted at) that Rhaegar was born when the tragedy happened. Thus Rhaella being there is much more likely than Aerys. And I suspect that Jaehaerys got disfigured/injured (concealed arm on the portrait) when he saved his daughter from whatever happened there...

Interesting idea..

If Egg has already a woman in mind, he could marry her on the very day he turns 16. It will be interesting to find out who she is. Could be pretty much anyone, although I doubt she will be a commoner...

I agree, she will most likely have not been a common woman, since Egg was still allowed to take the throne, and was not excluded from the inheritance like Duncan was.

And I agree that he is most like to meet her on his travels. Egg was 11 in the last Dunk and Egg story, IIRC. So we're still a few D&E's away from finding out...

[HexMachina]

Interesting idea..

I agree, she will most likely have not been a common woman, since Egg was still allowed to take the throne, and was not excluded from the inheritance like Duncan was.

And I agree that he is most like to meet her on his travels. Egg was 11 in the last Dunk and Egg story, IIRC. So we're still a few D&E's away from finding out...

He could have fallen in love while he was in the North or returning from the North I suppose? He is 11 as of the Mystery Knight and he and Dunk intend to head North to the Wall, although it seems they are more likely to go to Winterfell. Assuming we follow as similar time gaps as the last two novellas, that puts Egg at around 13-14 by the time he begins to return South, by which time he will likely have matured enough to fall in love. Perhaps

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He could have fallen in love while he was in the North or returning from the North I suppose? He is 11 as of the Mystery Knight and he and Dunk intend to head North to the Wall, although it seems they are more likely to go to Winterfell. Assuming we follow as similar time gaps as the last two novellas, that puts Egg at around 13-14 by the time he begins to return South, by which time he will likely have matured enough to fall in love. Perhaps

I'd say that 13 or 14 is too young to marry for love. 17 or 18 would be far more likely. If there's anyone who's likely to find love in the north, it's Dunk, I'd say. :)

[History of Westeros]

I'm interesting in tracking the Targaryen ages of marriage. I think Rhaenys might be right that the vast majority of Targ incest marriages were created quite early, at least since the Iron Throne's hold over Westeros was established.

We know most of the birth and death dates on the Targaryen family tree now, but marriage dates are still hazy in many cases. It seems that quite a few took place very early age-wise even when there was no danger of the line dying out. And why not? In the vast majority of cases, the union will be predictable as much as a decade in advance. In some cases it's super obvious, as in the aforementioned case of Aerys and Rhaella. What's the point of waiting when there's literally no other option? The incest marriages of the Dance-era Targaryens seem to have been performed early. Aegon II had kids way early... Helaena was 14 when she gave birth. So she was quite possibly pregnant at 13! And this well before the idea of Aegon being king was remotely considered, (Viserys I was alive, etc) so having quick heirs was not important.

Rhaenyra had Jace when she was 17.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne probably married young, though to be fair Maegor's inability to produce heirs may have put more impetus on this. But probably not, as it would be many years before people started to actually wonder if Maegor was infertile. (Like he most certainly did, most would blame his wives at first).

Daeron I was married before he marched to Dorne, and he was what, 14 when he did that?

I am doubtful there is more than an example or two of a Targaryen incest marriage being available and not performed as early as possible. Baelor's reign threw some things off in that regard, I suppose.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I'd say that 13 or 14 is too young to marry for love. 17 or 18 would be far more likely. If there's anyone who's likely to find love in the north, it's Dunk, I'd say. :)

13 or 14 could be the right age to fall in love though, and promise a marriage when they are both older. Did someone say that further up thread? Anyway, I think its possible but unlikely Aegon met his bride in the North.

[Martin Lasarte]

What's interesting is that the topic of the Targaryen marriage was brought up by Olenna in the series, and she described the Targaryen suitor as having a "ferret's face", making him sound almost like a Frey.

[Bastard of Balmora]

Didn't Westeros "pay the price in corpses" when Duncan chose Jenny of Oldstones over his betrothed? Was Olenna ever responsible for a war?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Didn't Westeros "pay the price in corpses" when Duncan chose Jenny of Oldstones over his betrothed? Was Olenna ever responsible for a war?

Yes, Westeros did. For all of Egg's sons, not only Duncan.

But Olenna doesn't work out for that. She's about twenty years younger than Duncan. For her, Aerys qualifies. Or maybe Egg's third son, but that wouldn't fit the whole queen approach.

[Mrs_Darcy]

What's interesting is that the topic of the Targaryen marriage was brought up by Olenna in the series, and she described the Targaryen suitor as having a "ferret's face", making him sound almost like a Frey.

You mean in the show and not in the books? I do not think, that this is canon in the books.

[Mithras]

Aerion's infant son.

He is always overlooked both in ASOIAF universe and in the forums.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Aerion's infant son.

He is always overlooked both in ASOIAF universe and in the forums.

And about 40 years older than Olenna.