[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Janicia]

The books have a lot of extremes - despicable acts, outlandish costumes (particularly relevant to the Dario discussion), complicated character motivations, unreliable narrator, prophesy, direwolves, ect.

The show rounds out a lot of those extremes, doesn't go into a lot of those corners. Beyond budget concerns, I think there is a storytelling aspect to that rounding out. For one thing, the show doesn't have the kind of time that the book does to rationalize / work through the questionable actions of the various grey characters. Things (like Dario's hair, Sansa's wedding rebellion, much of LF's machinations) that are tasty seasoning in the books - these things wouldn't have the same flavor in a 10 hour TV series because there wouldn't be any normalcy to dilute them.

And then there is the aspect of not wanting to put things on TV that are too easily mockable. Even many book fans, a self selected bunch, find some characters absurd, annoying, or painful to be in their head because they're so evil. The show is rounding off a lot of those rough edges to end up with a set of people that is more pleasant to spend time with, while still being deeply flawed.

[1234567]

It's funny people talk more about 13 year old sansa that ALMOST got fucked by tyrion then about Dany married at 13 to a savage that was harsh and Impregnates her at 13. Come on people you're so obsessed with a character that you even get pissed of things that ALMOST happen to them.

Most folk are not happy about Drogo / Dany either, but I don't see anyone trying to say Drogo was a 'hero' or a good guy. He was a slaver, murdering, rapist monster and is now dead. If he was still alive and married to Dany, I think it would be a different issue.

[MarieAntoinette]

Since this is mainstream TV and not some independent movie I don't think that they had the choice to film Tyrion making sexual advances towards Sansa, especially after she said that line about being fourteen years old. Tyrion could have been interpreted as being a paedophile and I can see why they don't want to go there with one of their main protagonists.

[Minsc]

It's funny people talk more about 13 year old sansa that ALMOST got fucked by tyrion then about Dany married at 13 to a savage that was harsh and Impregnates her at 13. Come on people you're so obsessed with a character that you even get pissed of things that ALMOST happen to them.

I cheered when Drogo died and I find it extremely creepy that GRRM describes that as a principle love story.

[MarieAntoinette]

I thought Dany / Drogon was creepy in the books. I watched the show first and a 13-year old actress paired with the actor of Khal Drogo would have been even more creepy than reading about it.

[Master Forel's Fro]

Most folk are not happy about Drogo / Dany either, but I don't see anyone trying to say Drogo was a 'hero' or a good guy. He was a slaver, murdering, rapist monster and is now dead. If he was still alive and married to Dany, I think it would be a different issue.

I have yet to see any fuss made over Dany as ppl do sansa.

[Minsc]

I have yet to see any fuss made over Dany as ppl do sansa.

Drogo is dead, nor is he ever portrayed as a hero.

Tyrion is alive, and is commonly portrayed as a hero.

[1234567]

I have yet to see any fuss made over Dany as ppl do sansa.

It's mainly in the General threads. Also Dany (wrongly IMHO) gets a lot of hate.

Drogo is dead, nor is he ever portrayed as a hero.

Tyrion is alive, and is commonly portrayed as a hero.

Also completely agree.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I rewatched the whole wedding and reception over again. I donj't mind sansa not kneeling. In the book she's not giving any warning about it and iirc tyrion and her never have any conversation before the wedding. in the show she's givin plenty of heads up and her kneeling was kind of a act against joffrey since he took tyrions stool, her not kneeling would have made her look like a dick.

Also don't have a problem with the bedding scene being changed, thinking about it, they probably couldn't have gone through with tyrion getting a hard on and grabbing her boob. Sansa is played by a 17 year old playing a 14 year old and tyrions like 40, so either they would have had to rewrite the scene like they did or get body doubles. and is it just me or was tyrion oogeling a bit when she said she was 14 and when she was undressing?

[six]

I think that's how it's portrayed in the book, and it seems to be how they're going to try to do it on the show. In the book, so many of Sansa's more nuanced realizations come after the fact. (For instance, she sees the depth of the Hound's feelings for her, and his potential to be her ally, only after he's gone.) Same with Tyrion. She does come to appreciate him in time, but really only when she's at the Eyrie. In the book, I was rooting for her to see Tyrion's worth---or at least realize he could be a powerful ally---while also knowing that such a realization would be tragic, a great betrayal of the family she's come to value after they are lost. (Again, typical Sansa.) The show can't be as subtle and interior, but I think they will show that Sansa is conflicted, that in one sense she realizes that Tyrion is the best of the lot and that at the same time, she's truly lost if she becomes a Lannister. All in all, I think the show gets at the same feelings, though by different means and at a different pace.

Yes, mostly that's how it works in the books too, to a degree. I think the show gets this, for the most part.

Also don't have a problem with the bedding scene being changed, thinking about it, they probably couldn't have gone through with tyrion getting a hard on and grabbing her boob. Sansa is played by a 17 year old playing a 14 year old and tyrions like 40, so either they would have had to rewrite the scene like they did or get body doubles. and is it just me or was tyrion oogeling a bit when she said she was 14 and when she was undressing?

Yes, he let her undressed and she was nearly done and then he stopped her. I think it came across exactly as it should have, only as a tv appropriate version of it. But they made the exact point that was made in the books i.e. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa. I hope that we will see him hoping the marriage would work in time as well.

[Runaway Penguin]

I liked the "and so my watch begins" self-mockery. Fitted well.

And the totally drunk Tyrion is probably a nod to things to come... Where wine plays a large part.

[Winter's Knight]

Like this blog post about the wedding:

http://feministfiction.com/2013/05/21/sansa-stark-does-not-kneel/

But she has one moment of defiance, one moment where she gets to stand up for herself, in an almost insignificant way, and say, “I do not consent to this. I will not be part of this.” She cannot stop the wedding, but she can refuse to make it easier for anybody. She can be dignified and detached and refuse to participate. And that strength and non-consent was taken away from her. To make her nicer. To make her kinder to Tyrion, and to smooth things over so that we see them both as victims, in this together, with Tyrion’s kindness there to save her.

To be fair, Tyrion is bold when he defies his father. It’s not something that the Lannister siblings do often. It shows decency, both in more-messed-up book Tyrion, and in the nobler, kinder show Tyrion. But why should Sansa need to care about his kindness or his decency? They are both being told to do something that they would rather not do, but Sansa is truly the one in a horrible situation. She is being forced to marry into the family of her enemies. The Lannisters murdered her father, her septa, and everyone from the North in Kings Landing. They have kept her prisoner, away from her family, and threatened her. They are actively trying to kill the little family she has left, and now they are forcing her to become one of them. She may have dreamed of escape, but now she can never escape, because she has become a Lannister. They have completely taken over her identity.

And Tyrion may seem kind and promise not to hurt her, but she’s heard those words from Lannisters before. She heard them from Cersei, and she heard them from Joffrey, and she learned the hard way that Lannisters lie. Their apparent kindness cannot be trusted. And even if she could trust that Tyrion is genuinely kind (which she cannot), that doesn’t change the fact that her marriage is a new kind of prison, and a permanent one at that. It is something that she does not consent to, and she never has to consent to it, no matter how kind Tyrion might be.

Her only way to express that, her only moment of clear strength in this story arc, was her refusal to kneel. And in the show, she knelt. She was strong in other ways, in her politeness and her courage and her quiet, terrified dignity, but her one way to fight back was taken away and blurred into niceness.

[HouseLark]

I have yet to see any fuss made over Dany as ppl do sansa.

Plenty of people have made a fuss over it. I personally hate it and I believe it is badly-written male fantasy wish fulfilment but these arguments have been rehashed over and over in the book sections of the forum and on various websites.

Dany has been aged up in the TV show which made her relationship with Drogo slightly more palatable and it was made clear that Drogo raped Dany in the show, which in my view was more realistic than George's "oh, she doesn't want to, but now she likes it, she can't help herself, she's all wet" crap from the books. Still, this caused a lot of controversy in the fandom, many of whom objected to the change in Dany from the reluctant but ultimately willing participant of the books to the victim in the show.

Again, read through the book forums and there's plenty of objection to Dany and Drogo.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Since so many feel Sansa was short changed in this scene, this entry by an unsullied might help the situation and show that they get it and things are on track for the character:

I kinda loved Sansa this ep. Such guts! Such grace under pressure! She was as strong as Margery - I found her entirely admirable. This is the first time I've realised how much she's growing up. The Sansa we first met was petulant and blurted things out. The Sansa in this episode was kinda amazing.

Since Sansa's public stance is that she's a loyal subject while the rest of her family are traitors, she's a ward of the crown and it's as if all her relatives were dead. So, unfortunately, Tywin and Joffrey do have the right to arrange her marriage even though they are also her family's enemies.

This is the downside of absolute rule. That's why I gotta love democracy.

[eyeheartsansa]

What? They have added lots of scenes of him being a better guy. IMO he is far more likeable on the show. I couldn't stand him in the books, on the show, I don't know how you could dislike him.

Umm...in the books he was fondling her naked breasts hard as a rock with her trembling in horror before he realizes it is too awkward (IIRC). He doesn't stop her before she is even undressed. Some of his phrasing in the bedroom may have been a little bit cruder but he was not coarse with her.

I still thought the scene was very good on the show, but IMO Tyrion's "whitewashing" has continued.

Some things are simply not filmable even for HBO. They are not going to show Sansa stripping for him while he looks down on his sad purple boner. Maybe they are 'whitewashing' some of the action, but the emotional content is pretty much the same.

IMO the things that make Tyrion less likeable happen later in the series.

[Ghost of Snow]

Personally, I find the chances HBo made reasonable. First of all, let's talk about the bedding scene. Sansa is played by a 17 years old girl and she's supposed to be 14 in the show canon. I'm not sure if the law allows a minor to be naked on scene, but it would be awkard to see a teenage girl in an almost sex scene with a 40+ man.. Moving on, I also find reasonable that they make her to kneel. In the books, Sansa was informed about her wedding the same day she was about to be married and this. That was a big shock for her who was imagining to go and live in Highgarden away from the Lannisters. But Lannisters had to smash her dream and on top of that make her wed one of their kin. Of course, she wouldn't try to make the wedding easier for Tyrion (or any Lannister in general). However, on the show she already knows about it a while now. She recieved Margaery's advice on the subject and she had the time to deal with this wedding. Furthermore, Tyrion was the one who assured her that he wouldn't harmed her and he even made her smile on the actual day of her wedding. I don't see why she should be mean to be in the show. By having her not kneeling would make her a big meanie and also supportive of Joffrey's bad joke and that's not the message the book gave. Instead of worrying about the actual act of Sansa kneeling I think that we should complain about the series of events that lead to it (Margaery's out of -book- character advice, Sansa knowing about her wedding days ago etc..)

[Dark_Sister]

^^ It is completely illegal to film a nude scene with a minor, and I think it's also illegal to film a nude scene with an underage character even if the actor/actress is of age, I always assumed they were going to do exactly what they did, and honestly I prefer it. The scene managed to transmit how they both felt, that's what matters.

Personally, I think their relationship will be like in the books, it's obvious they don't have anything in common, and after the RW I think Sansa will be really depressed and it will kill any chance they have of getting along.

[mrs_serpounce]

Apart from having his child bride fully disrobe and groping her with a hard on before deciding not to have sex with her, you mean?

There are actually nudity laws for broadcast regarding underage actors (Sophie is 17, so she still qualifies) and regarding erect male genetalia (you can show it flaccid, but not erect, don't ask me why). Thus, why you have a "whitewashed" bedroom scene.

[mrs_serpounce]

^^ It is completely illegal to film a nude scene with a minor, and I think it's also illegal to film a nude scene with an underage character even if the actor/actress is of age, I always assumed they were going to do exactly what they did, and honestly I prefer it. The scene managed to transmit how they both felt, that's what matters.

Haha, you beat me to that... Add in the whole "no raging hard-ons allowed because X-RATED yanno" and you have why the scene was edited.. ;)

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I was very much looking forward to this wedding, and I was afraid ''they'' wouldn't do it ''the right way'' since Sansa is my favourite character and I have a tendency to dislike ''big'' changes from the books. Emphasize the ''''. And I have to say, I'm pretty happy with how they dealt with it. One could easily see Sansa didn't want it, and one cannot but feel sorry for her while watching the episode. Well, I couldn't. Her pain was visible, the awkwardness was visible, the whole sham that the wedding was, was portrayed really well. Especially with drunk Tyrion, humiliating Sansa in the process.

Joffrey's threat served as a reminder that she was still very much a prisoner, which was also pointed out by Tyrion himself. The kneeling, well, I'd rather have that they handled the scene a bit different, since her not kneeling was quite important in the books, but after he asked her to kneel, she couldn't do anything else; and the awkwardness was already made clear, as well as her refusal of accepting the marriage.

Now, I really don't want the show going all ''Sansa accepts and likes Tyrion and being all conflicted about it, ''because Tyrion is nice to her''. What I got from the books (and this is different for everyone of course), she accepted that Tyrion was kind to her on multiple occasions, but that was about it. She did not accept the marriage as a whole, she did not accept Tyrion as her husband, and completely shuts him out, as well as any other. She does not really like him for being kind to her. He's a Lannister, he's the ugliest guy she could imagine and she would be stuck with him forever. He'd protect her as good as he could, yes, but Joffrey was still King and she knew it.

And then the things I read yesterday, about how Sansa was a shallow little girl (and worse things) for not liking Tyrion Lannister (more like Peter Dinklage I think) ... No matter his "good personality" or the fact that she "shouldn't mind" his dwarfism or ugliness because he was kind to her, it just shouldn't be criteria for her to like him or even love him. The fact that some people do think these are good criteria for loving him and wanting him in her bed... I mean, really? As if I should feel happy as a 13-year-old when Tyrion Lannister is going to be my husband because he is "kind" while others are not. Doesn't mean I should instantly, or eventually like/love him and be rejoiced. Love cannot be forced, and "kindness" should not be used as a reason for Sansa wanting him in her bed. Please. I've read this so many times (yesterday included after people saw the episode), and every time it still astonishes me.