[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[wandering]

What's this whitewashing nonsense people are going on about? Tyrion is grey in the show FFS. Did you not hear the connotation in his voice when he tells Sansa that his father "has demanded" he bed her? He clearly wanted Sansa in that moment.

[David Selig]

There are actually nudity laws for broadcast regarding underage actors (Sophie is 17, so she still qualifies) and regarding erect male genetalia (you can show it flaccid, but not erect, don't ask me why). Thus, why you have a "whitewashed" bedroom scene.

So in the US you can't ever show hardcore porn on cable?

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm still utterly bemused that so many people are smugly stating that ''book purists'' are just bitching about something for no reason. The reason so many people are saying Tyrion is whitewashed is...because, well...HE IS?

I liked his threat to Joffrey and him getting drunk at the wedding because it was a little reminder of his book counterpart, however, a lot of people just found drunk Tyrion even more endearing.

I've seen so many posts calling sansa a bitch on tumblr now I don't even know why I bother to search the ASOIAF tags on that website.

[Cas Stark]

I'm still utterly bemused that so many people are smugly stating that ''book purists'' are just bitching about something for no reason. The reason so many people are saying Tyrion is whitewashed is...because, well...HE IS?

I liked his threat to Joffrey and him getting drunk at the wedding because it was a little reminder of his book counterpart, however, a lot of people just found drunk Tyrion even more endearing.

I've seen so many posts calling sansa a bitch on tumblr now I don't even know why I bother to search the ASOIAF tags on that website.

I'm not a big Book Sansa fan, but it's pretty bad when the show has made TV Tyrion a much nicer person and yet made TV Sansa dumber and more shallow than her book self, a very odd choice indeed.

[mrs_serpounce]

So in the US you can't ever show hardcore porn on cable?

:shocked: Not on HBO, Showtime, or any other movie channel, nope. Softcore only. There's quite a few US jokes built around this. Not sure how other countries handle it.

[mrs_serpounce]

I'm still utterly bemused that so many people are smugly stating that ''book purists'' are just bitching about something for no reason. The reason so many people are saying Tyrion is whitewashed is...because, well...HE IS?

I'm utterly bemused that some people think, no matter how a whole bunch of us are still saying that we don't consider Show!Tyrion a hero or anything *but* a grey character, that we're being "smug".

I liked his threat to Joffrey and him getting drunk at the wedding because it was a little reminder of his book counterpart, however, a lot of people just found drunk Tyrion even more endearing.

Please point out posts here to me that find him "more endearing," because personally, I think that the entire wedding was a good shadow of his book counterpart, from him being the "god of tits and wine" to stabbing the table and threatening Joff to staggering into their bedroom to the reluctance in his tone as he told her to stop.

Amazing how the "whitewashing" posts forget these things. I don't think the wedding scene portrayed him as a "hero" at all, or Sansa as a "bitch." I think it was portrayed in the spirit of the book - awkward and painful for all involved in many, many ways.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Amazing how the "whitewashing" posts forget these things. I don't think the wedding scene portrayed him as a "hero" at all, or Sansa as a "bitch." I think it was portrayed in the spirit of the book - awkward and painful for all involved in many, many ways.

You would be amazed how many comments on the episode I read yesterday, (from men, women, teenage girls etc) calling Sansa a little shallow b*tch for not wanting Tyrion, or not understanding why she wouldn't want him, not understanding why she doesn't love him immediately ''because Tyrion is so nice and cool and is so kind to her and obviously being the coolest guy around!'' Really, you would be amazed.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I'm still utterly bemused that so many people are smugly stating that ''book purists'' are just bitching about something for no reason. The reason so many people are saying Tyrion is whitewashed is...because, well...HE IS? I liked his threat to Joffrey and him getting drunk at the wedding because it was a little reminder of his book counterpart, however, a lot of people just found drunk Tyrion even more endearing. I've seen so many posts calling sansa a bitch on tumblr now I don't even know why I bother to search the ASOIAF tags on that website.

As with the books. Many readers like Tyrion. Many viewers like Tyrion. Many readers think Sansa was spiteful toward Tyrion. Not nearly as many viewers thing she was. While Tyrion has definitely been "freed" from some of his evil deeds, so has Sansa and I believe it was in an attempt to make both more likeable. In the end, the wedding and bedding scene was done well for the medium. Without the benefit of Sansa's thoughts, her actions would have been viewed very negatively.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm utterly bemused that some people think, no matter how a whole bunch of us are still saying that we don't consider Show!Tyrion a hero or anything *but* a grey character, that we're being "smug".

Please point out posts here to me that find him "more endearing," because personally, I think that the entire wedding was a good shadow of his book counterpart, from him being the "god of tits and wine" to stabbing the table and threatening Joff to staggering into their bedroom to the reluctance in his tone as he told her to stop.

Amazing how the "whitewashing" posts forget these things. I don't think the wedding scene portrayed him as a "hero" at all, or Sansa as a "bitch." I think it was portrayed in the spirit of the book - awkward and painful for all involved in many, many ways.

ok :D

All taken from tumblr

I’m watching Second Sons and its making me so sad because Tyrion is trying his best to be kind and Sansa’s not being tactful or thoughtful at all T^T

SANSA! as much as i love you you little darling, if you could just get over yourself a little bit, you and tyrion would MAKE A GREAT FUCKING TEAM!

Awww Tyrion Lannister is so cute when he’s drunk. I just wanna hold the lil fella

Wow, if it wasn’t already high enough, my respect for Tyrion only grew during this latest episode of ‘Game of Thrones’.

He tried to make the most out of his situation with Sansa. He even tried to make her feel better by laughing, even though he wanted to be with someone else himself. Oh, and the fact that he didn’t rape her also set off my feels for him.

I’m sorry but the way Tyrion’s face just falls when Sansa says that she might never want him.

it's all poor tyrion and inconsiderate sansa

I KNOW that you and a lot of people who have read the books still see Tyrion as grey, my point is, the way he is on the show, he is made to be endearing and poor tyrion and wow isn't he nice and a lot of people who haven't read the books are viewing him like this. he IS whitewashed, regardless of whether your opinion on tyrion has changed or not.

[silentwanderer]

But why the hell the Boltons would choose Shae of all people for this role? Why would Ramsay want to marry a 30+ years prostitute? Why would they pretend she's Arya when absolutely nobody no matter how dim or loyal to them would believe it?

My theory is that Bolton & Ramsay will use the real Arya because of the timeline set by the show,.

Seems pretty easy to caught a faceless-girl-in-training if she loses focus in her own home. Since the Bolton are supposed to take Winterfell a few seasons from now, Arya could end up about to marry the bastard for real this time.

Arya could still spend a few seasons in Braavos until then and Ramsay a few seasons turturing Theon.

[mrs_serpounce]

All taken from tumblr

it's all poor tyrion and inconsiderate sansa

Tumblr... I'd like to see what's here on the forums ;)

I KNOW that you and a lot of people who have read the books still see Tyrion as grey, my point is, the way he is on the show, he is made to be endearing and poor tyrion and wow isn't he nice and a lot of people who haven't read the books are viewing him like this. he IS whitewashed, regardless of whether your opinion on tyrion has changed or not.

I understand your opinion's point. That is how you feel. You've made it thoroughly. Totally got it. What my point is, is other people feel differently; they feel that while there have been some changes to the character, the "whitewashing" is not as extreme as a contingent of people feel it to be. So it's not fact, it's opinion :)

[mrs_serpounce]

a lot of people who haven't read the books are viewing him like this.

Quick PS: I watch GoT with four Unsullied. They view Tyrion on the same gray level I do; while they are endeared to him because he's witty and entertaining, it's definitely not "wow, isn't he nice." They think he's pretty dangerous.

I'd actually love to see a poll of Unsullied to see where that skews.

[Theda Baratheon]

Tumblr... I'd like to see what's here on the forums ;)

I understand your opinion's point. That is how you feel. You've made it thoroughly. Totally got it. What my point is, is other people feel differently; they feel that while there have been some changes to the character, the "whitewashing" is not as extreme as a contingent of people feel it to be. So it's not fact, it's opinion :)

but my opinion this whole time is that a lot of unsullied see tyrion in a different light, so if they're on tumblr i don't see why that makes a difference. as a lot of people on this forum have read the books.

[mrs_serpounce]

but my opinion this whole time is that a lot of unsullied see tyrion in a different light, so if they're on tumblr i don't see why that makes a difference. as a lot of people on this forum have read the books.

See my "quick PS." :) And there are people on this forum who haven't, too. I think it's all a YMMV thing. There are people who thought Tyrion-of-the-books was a bit more sympathetic, too:

As with the books. Many readers like Tyrion. Many viewers like Tyrion. Many readers think Sansa was spiteful toward Tyrion. Not nearly as many viewers thing she was. While Tyrion has definitely been "freed" from some of his evil deeds, so has Sansa and I believe it was in an attempt to make both more likeable. In the end, the wedding and bedding scene was done well for the medium. Without the benefit of Sansa's thoughts, her actions would have been viewed very negatively.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I KNOW that you and a lot of people who have read the books still see Tyrion as grey, my point is, the way he is on the show, he is made to be endearing and poor tyrion and wow isn't he nice and a lot of people who haven't read the books are viewing him like this. he IS whitewashed, regardless of whether your opinion on tyrion has changed or not.

There are a lot of people who have read the books and thinks Tyrion is completely a good character with no flaws, though. The fact that he's an outcast is what "whitewashes" him.

With Ned Stark gone, there is no "hero" left in the show. Robb and Jon could have fit the role, but the both are making big mistakes so far: Robb screwed up his alliances because of a woman and Jon broke his vows (also, his role hasn't been that important this season). TV shows work like this, they need a "main character" people could relate to and Tyrion fits the role. We know Robb will be gone very soon too, so Tyrion is the one left for the next season, even after he's accused of murder, people will support him because that's how I guess D/D want the audience to see the character. Until the moment when he breaks down and commits a double murder. That will come as a real shock, considering that he has been protected from gray situations, and he went straight to black.

ETA: Tumblr is a good way to measure extreme and radical fans. They either love or hate something or someone, but they aren't objective.

[Raksha the Demon]

I was very much looking forward to this wedding, and I was afraid ''they'' wouldn't do it ''the right way'' since Sansa is my favourite character and I have a tendency to dislike ''big'' changes from the books. Emphasize the ''''. And I have to say, I'm pretty happy with how they dealt with it. One could easily see Sansa didn't want it, and one cannot but feel sorry for her while watching the episode. Well, I couldn't. Her pain was visible, the awkwardness was visible, the whole sham that the wedding was, was portrayed really well. Especially with drunk Tyrion, humiliating Sansa in the process.

Joffrey's threat served as a reminder that she was still very much a prisoner, which was also pointed out by Tyrion himself. The kneeling, well, I'd rather have that they handled the scene a bit different, since her not kneeling was quite important in the books, but after he asked her to kneel, she couldn't do anything else; and the awkwardness was already made clear, as well as her refusal of accepting the marriage.

Now, I really don't want the show going all ''Sansa accepts and likes Tyrion and being all conflicted about it, ''because Tyrion is nice to her''. What I got from the books (and this is different for everyone of course), she accepted that Tyrion was kind to her on multiple occasions, but that was about it. She did not accept the marriage as a whole, she did not accept Tyrion as her husband, and completely shuts him out, as well as any other. She does not really like him for being kind to her. He's a Lannister, he's the ugliest guy she could imagine and she would be stuck with him forever. He'd protect her as good as he could, yes, but Joffrey was still King and she knew it.

And then the things I read yesterday, about how Sansa was a shallow little girl (and worse things) for not liking Tyrion Lannister (more like Peter Dinklage I think) ... No matter his "good personality" or the fact that she "shouldn't mind" his dwarfism or ugliness because he was kind to her, it just shouldn't be criteria for her to like him or even love him. The fact that some people do think these are good criteria for loving him and wanting him in her bed... I mean, really? As if I should feel happy as a 13-year-old when Tyrion Lannister is going to be my husband because he is "kind" while others are not. Doesn't mean I should instantly, or eventually like/love him and be rejoiced. Love cannot be forced, and "kindness" should not be used as a reason for Sansa wanting him in her bed. Please. I've read this so many times (yesterday included after people saw the episode), and every time it still astonishes me.

I thought the wedding/bedroom scene could have, on the whole, been far worse. I half expected Tyrion to be whitewashed far more and behave like a real 'parfit gentil knight', rather than putting his foot in his mouth with his nervous bride-to-be by telling her he knows how she feels (i.e. thinking that because he was ordered to marry her as she was ordered to marry him, they're suffering equally, when he still has a father and siblings, he is not a captive of the family that destroyed his own and is not now facing the obliteration of his own family identity by forced marriage) and then getting repulsively drunk during the wedding feast.

And I thought that smile of Tyrion's, after Sansa asks 'and what if I never want you to...?', was perfect book-Tyrion, accepting, but with a savage sarcasm showing, however brief.

TV-Sansa showed her nervousness and misery with small gestures and posture. She looked like a sacrificial offering on her way to her death rather than a bride walking towards her groom when she entered the sept in her finery. She threw out a few nervous half-smiles at the court, because it was expected of her and people were actually smiling at her; but she looked vulnerable and unhappy. (of course, that rather ugly wedding dress and horrible hairdo didn't help) And Sansa's behavior in the bedroom, when Tyrion tells her that his father has ordered him to consummate the marriage; from her standing there twisting her hands awkwardly to her then mechanically and joylessly starting to strip, was in character for the TV version.

The biggest obstacle in the way of Sansa ever becoming anything close to a loving, or even content wife of Tyrion Lannister is not, in my opinion, his dwarfism. It's the lack of trust. Sansa has been hurt so badly by Tyrion's family that she cannot bring herself to trust him, even when he is kind to her. I seem to recall (don't have the book handy) in ACOK, when Tyrion rescued her from the beating and had her brought to his tower and treated and he talked to her, that Sansa was almost tempted to let down her courtesy armor with him, but reminded herself that Joffrey and Cersei had once been kind to her as well, or something like that. Sansa made a huge mistake in trusting the Lannisters more than once in GOT, and she cannot forget it; and she is hugely wary of anyone in that family, even the best of them. (of course, it's not easy to tell, when one is 11-14, who is trustworthy and who isn't; and even Sansa's own father made a fatal mistake in trusting Littlefinger, and he was old enough to know better)

[mrs_serpounce]

There are a lot of people who have read the books and thinks Tyrion is completely a good character with no flaws, though. The fact that he's an outcast is what "whitewashes" him.

...

TV shows work like this, they need a "main character" people could relate to and Tyrion fits the role. We know Robb will be gone very soon too, so Tyrion is the one left for the next season, even after he's accused of murder, people will support him because that's how I guess D/D want the audience to see the character. Until the moment when he breaks down and commits a double murder. That will come as a real shock, considering that he has been protected from gray situations, and he went straight to black.

ETA: Tumblr is a good way to measure extreme and radical fans. They either love or hate something or someone, but they aren't objective.

:agree:

[Theda Baratheon]

I just want to say I did actually love the wedding.

This picture sums it up nicely.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d93aab06496d48fa3a49b3205c86f338/tumblr_mn47qj42BT1rm91uno1_500.jpg

[Lady Sansa Stark]

:agree:

Facebook, then? YouTube? I mean, no one is objective, and neither are Tumblr fans, but no one can deny that there are a lot of people who praise Tyrion for what he did and didn't do, while being angry with Sansa for what she did and didn't do. And others cannot understand that :)

[Harnisfechten]

I hate the whitewashing of Tyrion. The show has turned him into a heroic protagonist (rather than a more grey protagonist like Jaime). The fact that people feel bad for him and think Sansa is wrong for not wanting him is proof that the show got it wrong.