R + L = J v 50

[UVA]

I agree that knowing a secret strikes me as a lot sounder reason behind 'most dangerous man in Dorne' but it DOESN'T seem the secret would be R+L or else that would mean Doran knows that secret, too.

That's why I asked up thread about who said this in the text. I know Doran made the "most dangerous" statement but I thought another poster attributed "DS knows some secrets" to Doran as well, which would presuppose that Doran is in possession of this knowledge, and would also make it unlikely that this pertains to RLJ. If anything, the DS comment relates to the Martells and their current clandestine support of the Targaryens.

Doran was close to Aerys (betrothing their children).

No, Doran's mother was the one who brokered the marriage (of Rhaegar and Elia) with Aerys.

[finger]

I find it far more annoying than I do funny. And no I wouldn't say all of the possibilities that you just mentioned could 'work', just because your own imagination seems to think they do work, doesn't make it so. There is nothing in the text or interviews with GRRM whatsoever that would support or suggest even in the slightest bit that Rhaegar and Ashara had any sort of affair of any kind. You're basing this theory strictly off 100% of your own speculation, and thus it will never be taken seriously..... :P

Speculation, logical reasoning,... name it as you like it. This goes about guessing Martin's imagination devices, and I don't know a better way than reading the books and use my own imagination and reasoning. This is not a thread about Ashara and I wouldn't go any longer but I don't see any reason for they couldn't have been lovers. Had they also sworn an oath? The night is long and full of secrets.

Once A had been dishonoured (?) at the TOH, she could have said WTH, live's short. "Dear Elia, would you mind my using your comely husband while you're sick?"

Otoh, No one should be bothered because some people find this funny.

[Maxpey]

I find it far more annoying than I do funny. And no I wouldn't say all of the possibilities that you just mentioned could 'work', just because your own imagination seems to think they do work, doesn't make it so. There is nothing in the text or interviews with GRRM whatsoever that would support or suggest even in the slightest bit that Rhaegar and Ashara had any sort of affair of any kind. You're basing this theory strictly off 100% of your own speculation, and thus it will never be taken seriously..... :P

I think Finger has raised a good point about Ashara and her "suicide."

If she didn't commit suicide, why fake her own death?

[finger]

Hello people, first time poster here. :)

Im only on my third book but watched all the show episodes so far.Due to some twats on the internet spoiling this for me i have some question on the matter:

-L has a arranged marriage with Robert.He loves her,she does not love him back.

-She loves Rhaegar.

-At some tourney she runs away with Rhaegar ..to where exactly?Or do they stay in Kings Landing?

-Robert gets pissed off and starts a rebellion just cause a girl left him?

Wellcome.

IMHO, you shouldn't join this part of the forum until you're finished with the book, or you risk to have you reading spoilt.

Well, if you like the guessing game.

Where and when they run off is unknown. They went to the Tower of Joy, named like this by Rhaegar. They should have had some joy.

The rebellion was caused by some escalating acts. The chief culprit may be Brandon, who cornered the situation so that there was no way out but war. Aerys just stroke first. He was f**king mad, anyhow.

[A Crow Come Over]

How the fuck did Dorkstar get into the R+L=J discussion?

I cant wait this douche gets killed and we dont have hear about how 'bad ass' he is and somehow involved in all the plots in Westeros at the same time.

[MtnLion]

I think Finger has raised a good point about Ashara and her "suicide."

If she didn't commit suicide, why fake her own death?

To go raise her son in Essos. When Ned told her about the scene in the throne room, he probably had no idea how hard the news of Aegon's death would hit her. But, Varys gave her good news of the secret variety, and she had to leave secretly.

Now, a young Darkstar may have seen travelling people, or even been present when those people were entertained at High Hermitage, since the road to Starfall is through there from the tower. Thus Darkstar may know something about the tower of joy. Or maybe just that Ned traveled with a very young baby.

[Maxpey]

To go raise her son in Essos. When Ned told her about the scene in the throne room, he probably had no idea how hard the news of Aegon's death would hit her. But, Varys gave her good news of the secret variety, and she had to leave secretly.

Now, a young Darkstar may have seen travelling people, or even been present when those people were entertained at High Hermitage, since the road to Starfall is through there from the tower. Thus Darkstar may know something about the tower of joy. Or maybe just that Ned traveled with a very young baby.

Now the $64,000 question(s): (a) Who is her son? and

(B) Who is the father?

ETA: the second question

[Ser Creighton]

I wouldn't start again, because I have no clue of what happened. Let's recap.

I don't believe she committed suicide, so she must have faked it. Why should she? To flee.

I don't see any reason to flee, unless she were taking a Targ with her. Why else?

This Targ could be Aegon, if we believe Varis. She might have been with Elia when she wasn't allowed to leave KL and be sent to SF. Aerys had no reason to prevent it and she could tuck away the baby. This would be the Gilly connection.

Or Jon could have a twin who took after R, and Ned didn't find it wise to take him to WF, so he left him with Ashara. This would be total surprise.

Or it was her own child, with two possible fathers; Aerys and R. If Aerys, he should have been extremely prolific, letting impregnated every woman he raped :eek: R is the other possibility. They lived together while Elia was sick. Why not?

But I think I'm being clear: there are some possibilities to explore, and any of them could work. You can choose the one you like best.

And , as Maxpey says, you can't deny it's funny.

Ok so if I am getting this right your not claiming anyting as fact, but you have some thoughts about the events around R+L=J and you want to discuss them. As I see it there is nothing wrong with that, that's what the forum is for. If people want to sit here and talk about the same thing over and over and be closed minded to just discussing different ideas around the story they don't have too. I suggest they go look at some of the Sansa threads which have no fear of exploring different avenues. R+L=J tends to get a little narrow minded at times, or as some people refer to it, the "Really Love Jon" fan appreciation thread. It has to be this, this and this because a handful of people like that idea and exploring anything seems to end up in a war.

Let me guess some people are resisting the idea of exploring different areas of the story if they don't match perfectly with the existing theory. I would suggest writing up your own ideas and posting your won thread, that way you will not bother the purists and might find some people more open to a braoder spectrum of discussion.

I think some aspects of the story have been solved to an extent. But anyone that thinks Martin wrote a rather cliche simple black and white love story or that this is solved is kidding themselves. There are a lot of areas that are not explored, I myself have areas I would like to discuss, but would never post them here as it would just end up in an argument. Even if it's just for fun and crackpot, it ends up in an argument here. Now just nod your head and go back to exploring the exact same aspects of the story over and over.

[Jon Icefyre]

I think Finger has raised a good point about Ashara and her "suicide."

If she didn't commit suicide, why fake her own death?

Well first of all I'm not even entirely convinced that Ashara is septa Lemore to begin with so I think it's a bit of a stretch to put so many assumptions on why Ashara would have "faked her own suicide" when it hasn't even been confirmed yet by GRRM that she's even still alive to begin with. Also again I said that it's certainly possible that Ashara has a child out there but if the child is indeed a Targ then it's Aerys not Rhaegar's. Sorry I'm not gonna say that a theory that involves Rhaegar getting three different noble women women pregnant within a three year time span is a credible theory. GRRM is not creating 68 degrees of Rhaegar Targaryen, I mean think about it, so Rhaegar first marrys Elia has two kids with her, then he decides that Elia's old news and her friend Ashara is much hotter so he starts gettin it on with her and impregnates her, only to realize that Lyanna is his one true love so he runs away with her and gets her pregnant? I mean are serious? It's a bad joke really and goes against pretty much everything we know about Rhaegar's character he was not some man whore that was going around impregnating noble ladies in Westeros left and right. Also Rhaegar says, "The dragon has three heads" not four.

Also has anyone ever considered that Ashara might have indeed meant to commit suicide but survived anyway? So she didn't return home out of her own shame and that's when she found Varys and found out about the young Griff/Aegon scheme and perhaps decided to devote her life to that? Once again Ashara might indeed have a child out there but if she does the father is most likely Aerys or Brandon, there's a very slim chance it's Ned yet still there's a chance, but there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the father is Rhaegar sorry. Also due to the strong hints/references/foreshadowing GRRM put in ADWD about the Blackfyres, I'd say there's a much stronger/more likely chance that Young Griff/Faegon is actually a Blackfyre, considering all the strong Blackfyre references happened to appear in the same book that Young Griff/Faegon did........

[MtnLion]

Now the $64,000 question(s): (a) Who is her son? and

( B) Who is the father?

ETA: the second question

Well, Barristan seems to think that everything went awry when Aerys decided to attend the tourney, and a man dishonored Ashara. If Elia had a stillborn daughter as her last child she had failed miserably at providing an heir to Rhaegar.

But, this thread is really about R + L = J so I try to stay away from a discussion that would lead us astray.

[Maxpey]

Well, Barristan seems to think that everything went awry when Aerys decided to attend the tourney, and a man dishonored Ashara. If Elia had a stillborn daughter as her last child she had failed miserably at providing an heir to Rhaegar.

But, this thread is really about R + L = J so I try to stay away from a discussion that would lead us astray.

You're right. We'll discuss this someplace along the way, I'm sure. :cheers:

[Ygrain]

Well first of all I'm not even entirely convinced that Ashara is septa Lemore to begin with so I think it's a bi of a stretch to put so many assumptions on why Ashara would have "faked he own suicide" when it hasn't even been confirmed yet by GRRM that she's even still alive to begin with. Also again I said that it's certainly possible that Ashara has a child out there but if the child is indeed a Targ then it's Aerys not Rhaegar's. Sorry I'm not gonna say that a theory that involves Rhaegar getting three different noble women women pregnant within a three year time span is a credible theory. GRRM is not creating 68 degrees of Rhaegar Targaryen, I mean think about it, so Rhaegar first marrys Elia has two kid with her, then he decides that Elia's old new and her friend Ashara is much hotter so he starts gettin it on with her and impregnates her, only to realize that Lyanna is his one true love so he runs away with her and gets her pregnant? I mean are serious? It's a bad joke really and goes against pretty much everything we know about Rhaegar's character he was not some man whore that was impregnated noble ladies in Westeros left and right. Also Rhaegar says, "The dragon has three heads" not four.

Sounds like Beverly Hills 90210 :D

Really, having Rhaegar impregnate someone else yet would detract from the tragedy of R+L.

Just found out that my favourite cover singer Malukah did one for Game of Thrones, so I thought I would share:

Oh, and here have some Lindsey Stirling:

[finger]

As I understand things, Ashara lived with Elia, while Elia was sick. Ashara was Elia's companion, or did you find another book?

What's the matter? Elia was Rhaegar's wife. They all lived together. And there were more people about as well.

I said I'm not trying to come back to this arc.

[Snark_Tamer]

Now the $64,000 question(s): (a) Who is her son? and

(B) Who is the father?

ETA: the second question

I am rereading DwD and just passed Dany thinking about Dario... dark blue eyes, almost purple... He sounds a bit like a Dayne to me... just throwing it out there as an option. If in fact Ashara is Septa Lenore...

I don't believe Rhaegar would be the father--I really think the argument of NOT Elia, then Ashara, then Lyanna... it robs the Lyanna thing of what seems special about it. I mean I think PART of why Rhaegar gave up on Elia was her frailty and 'no more kids' and his dream of 3 dragons, but I don't see him as an 'any pretty face' guy.

[finger]

I agree that knowing a secret strikes me as a lot sounder reason behind 'most dangerous man in Dorne' but it DOESN'T seem the secret would be R+L or else that would mean Doran knows that secret, too. Doran was close to Aerys (betrothing their children). This runs COUNTER to protecting a secret about Rhaegar having another (living) child--his own kids would be farther from the line, marrying Aerys's younger, when the sons of the oldest would fall earlier in succession.

What if he knows about Ashara's faked suicide? Just thinking...

[Maxpey]

Sounds like Beverly Hills 90210 :D

Really, having Rhaegar impregnate someone else yet would detract from the tragedy of R+L.

Just found out that my favourite cover singer Malukah did one for Game of Thrones, so I thought I would share:

Oh, and here have some Lindsey Stirling:

Does that make Rhaegar Dylan or Brandon? ;)

[Ygrain]

Does that make Rhaegar Dylan or Brandon? ;)

Ugh, I don't really know, couldn't stay either... probably a mix? Brandon as the good guy type and Dylan the broody one?

Hm, would Kelly qualify as Cersei? :D

[A Crow Come Over]

That's why I asked up thread about who said this in the text. I know Doran made the "most dangerous" statement but I thought another poster attributed "DS knows some secrets" to Doran as well, which would presuppose that Doran is in possession of this knowledge, and would also make it unlikely that this pertains to RLJ. If anything, the DS comment relates to the Martells and their current clandestine support of the Targaryens.

He's the "most dangerous" man in Dorne because he's the deadliest with a sword, Arienne clearly states thats they only reason why she brought him along was for his skill in battle (and shes a sucker for a cute face)

I don't think ive seen a character so far gone with Fett Syndrome in my life.

[Jon Icefyre]

He's the "most dangerous" man in Dorne because he's the deadliest with a sword, Arienne clearly states thats they only reason why she brought him along was for his skill in battle (and shes a sucker for a cute face)

I don't think ive seen a character so far gone with Fett Syndrome in my life.

Ya but she also stated another reason why she brought him was to use his castle if necessary. Also in the WoW sample chapter we find out that Arienne considers Areo Hotah to be a deadlier overall warrior than Ser Gerold. Which is why she said Darkstar would be defeated because, "No man could stand against Hotah."......

[A Crow Come Over]

Ya but she also stated another reason why she brought him was to use his castle if necessary. Also in the WoW sample chapter we find out that Arienne considers Areo Hotah to be a deadlier overall warrior than Ser Gerold. Which is why she said Darkstar would be defeated because, "No man could stand against Hotah."......

Because it was strategically located (the castle), the Areo Hotah comment is irrelevant. She needed "muscle" to carry out her plan and, besides Areo, Dorkstar was the supposedly the deadliest the fighter in Dorne.