Was Jon Really Breaking his Vows?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So what? He told him to go and get his sister. The spearwives did. He did not tell them to wait at Long Lake and then come straight back as some people would have it.

This is all the more hilarious as the poster you were responding to did not mention Winterfell at all.

Most people who bitch and moan about Jon sending Mance after Arya act like Jon explicitly sent him to Winterfell, which is not the case. That's my point. Having them pick up a girl on the road =/= sending them into Winterfell.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

The Halfhand commanded him not to break and do whatever was needed to gain the trust of the wildlings. This was an order, given by a senior officer. He did not break his vows. He did what was asked, by the Nights Watch.

"I won't trouble you OR your black crows". That was pretty clear threat to the NW as well.

Sorry folks, Jon is still as pure as a new born baby.

What about Ygritte. That was breaking vows? Or do you think that falls under a command as well?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What about Ygritte. That was breaking vows? Or do you think that falls under a command as well?

Not sleeping with her when he had no good reason not to — not if he'd actually forsaken his vows, anyway — would've been a red flag and blown his cover.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Let's not forget though, Cersei was planning to have Jon assassinated. Maybe the perpetrators are just grasping at the first excuse they see because they are looking for a way to get away with it.

Good point.

[Direwolf of the Starks]

Plus no where in the vows or oaths does it say to cant screw women. It just say you can't father children. And on top of that he was doing as he was told by Qhorin to do anything to get accepted in their ranks

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Technically, he broke his vows when he banged Ygritte.

Yeah exactly

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

You know I am not the only one that sees fans putting the Jesus complex on Jon is a big way?

Yes!

[lady m]

Wouldn't it also be breaking his vows if Jon had acquiesced and sent the women and children to Ramsay? They were wanted as hostages for political reasons and if Jon sent them, he'd be "taking part in the wars of the 7 kingdoms".

Yes, but I think his thing is he's trying to fix what he sees as a mistake of the heart, that's the best way I can express it, by keeping his brothers out of this fight. He schemed to get Arya rescued, that's come back to seemingly bite him in the ass since Mance went straight to Winterfell, and he feels he's the one that has to right that mistake.

He also is giving the rest of the Watchmen plausible deniability if he is defeated by Ramsay and the Boltons show up at the Wall making demands. They honestly didn't have a part in Jon's meddling. Not that I think the Boltons, Ramsay in particular, would go for that reasoning, but Leathers - senior officer at CB- could make that argument in good faith.

[lady m]

What about Ygritte. That was breaking vows? Or do you think that falls under a command as well?

The vows actually only say, 'father no children.' They don't mention not having sex. It seems that many interpret them to mean the latter, but in a society that has abortifacients readily available that would not be the case. So, no, Yigritte isn't necessarily a breaking of his vows, though Jon seems to feel it does.

[Arya Targaryen]

I think Jon didn't really care at the end of ADWD whether he breaks his vows or not. I could argue that he did not, as he always had the well-being of the Watch on his mind, but surely, he would have done things against his vows if that helped him against the Others.

Regarding Mance: I'm not sure if it was a mistake, as we don't see all the consequences. I like Mance, so I was happy he was sent to get Arya, but Jon is right, it is hard to say what Mance's plans are right now, or what he wanted to do in Wf anyway. But everyone seems to forget, that it was Mel, not Jon, who sent Mance to get Arya. Mance was Stannis' prisoner, not Jon's. And Mel was the one who spared him. Technically, Stannis gave Rattleshirt to Jon, but he didn't know it was Mance. So who held Mance? Was is Jon? So he could do with him, whatever he wanted?

If we accept that Mance is spared and was given to Jon, what that means legally (even is Stannis is not aware)? Mance is still the King beyond the Wall, he is not Jon's subordinate, even if he is held captive at CB. Is Jon within his rights to let him go? Totally. Can he ask favors? Sure he can. And technically, Mance can decide whether he helps Jon or not. In my opinion, Mance respects Jon and genuinely thinks he is his best chance against the Others. Sure, he has some plans on his mind, but he can't expect to succeed without Jon's help, so he wants to stay in Jon's good books. Maybe the Northern Lords will be more willing to side with him, if he saves Arya. So technically, Jon didn't send Mance to save Arya. It was Mel, as she was the one who could (possibly) force him to do so via those rubies. But why did Mel ask Jon about it? Because she wanted Jon to trust her. It's not like Jon could order Mance to do things: He could execute him or let him go. But once free, he cannot force Mance to save Arya. Mel can (or not, we don't really know). Anyway, for all Ramsey and everybody else knows, Mance, the King beyond the Wall went to Winterfell (with Jon's knowledge) to "steal" Arya. How could anyone think, that the Bastard of Winterfell, the LC of the Watch can boss the King beyond the Wall around? If Mance is there, it is because he wants to be there, and not because Jon ordered him there.

So: did Jon order Mance to save Arya? No, he didn't. Did he let him go? Yes. Is he within his rights to do so? Sure, it has it's risks, but he is the LC, he can release any prisoner. Can he ask favors? Yes, nowhere in the vows it is mentioned he cannot. Especially if it helps in the long run to do his duty against the Others (I mean, it can be a test of Mance's loyalty, and he is possibly the best ally Jon can hope for, as he knows the Others).

Mance has built quite a reputation, so I find it hard to believe that anyone honesty think (in the North) that Jon as LC can ORDER him anything.

[nirolo]

Most people who bitch and moan (junk) about Jon sending Mance after Arya act like Jon explicitly sent him to Winterfell, which is not the case. That's my point. Having them pick up a girl on the road =/= sending them into Winterfell.

We don't know exactly what Jon agreed to when he agreed to let Mance loose. I hope we can all agree though that Jon consented and gave his blessings to the mission. We also have these thoughts from Jon:

Quote 1:

Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me.

Quote 1:

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

I don't know about you, but to me the above two quotes make it sound like Jon is doing a little more than simply giving tacit consent. I also don't see Jon giving too much thought about the aftermath of his plan. Wether Mance succeeds, I don't see the NW coming out ahead either way.

[nirolo]

Snip

Yes. Jon did not order Mance to go rescue Arya. But he agreed to it, he desired it, and he aided it. In short, Jon was a co-conspirator in Mel's plan.

Also, from Ramsay's or anyone's perspective for that matter, what Mance did was kidnapping; he was not specifically told to do so, nor was he prohibited from doing so. If anything, Jon and Mel gave Mance a pretty free range in what he can or cannot do.

I'm open to others' objections, but it would be nice to see a few quotes from the other side once in a while.

[nirolo]

Yes, but I think his thing is he's trying to fix what he sees as a mistake of the heart, that's the best way I can express it, by keeping his brothers out of this fight. He schemed to get Arya rescued, that's come back to seemingly bite him in the ass since Mance went straight to Winterfell, and he feels he's the one that has to right that mistake.

He also is giving the rest of the Watchmen plausible deniability if he is defeated by Ramsay and the Boltons show up at the Wall making demands. They honestly didn't have a part in Jon's meddling. Not that I think the Boltons, Ramsay in particular, would go for that reasoning, but Leathers - senior officer at CB- could make that argument in good faith.

Here's another thought...

Let's assume that Jon defeats Ramsay and takes back Winterfell, wouldn't that violate the the "win no glory" clause of the vow? Especially when he did so without a single NW brother and did it outside official NW function.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Jon was interfering in the affairs of the realm: the letter didn't come out of nowhere, and as such the situation was his own damn fault.

But the correct course of action would be to write back, and say that these people were not on the Wall. Buy some time with bureaucratic platitudes. In the meanwhile, no-one is going anywhere in the blizzard: Ramsay can't march anywhere.

[SeanF]

What comes out of this thread is that it's not actually possible for the Lord Commander *not* to take a part in the affairs of the Realm, at this stage. Once the Night's Watch accepted Stannis' assistance, they chose a side.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And Jon knew nothing of this 'accepting Stannis' assistance' since he was 'negotiating' with Tormund when Stannis arrived, and even if Castle Black knew Stannis was at another castle, Jon was in the cage and he didn't find out.

The neutrality was breached before him, and thanks to others accepting Stannis' help, he had to manoeuvre around it later on.

[Lady Winter Rose]

As always it's a grey area. He wasn't deserting and didn't ask the NW to join him. So it all depends on your POV

I disagree. It's not grey area.

Yes, he was deserting. Just because he planned to return, it doesn't change he was going to leave Watch (temporally as it is) for political purposes. Even worse, he didn't replace his own family with duty in his heart.

These NW rules are stupid, but he was breaking them, anyway.

[nirolo]

Jon was interfering in the affairs of the realm: the letter didn't come out of nowhere, and as such the situation was his own damn fault.

But the correct course of action would be to write back, and say that these people were not on the Wall. Buy some time with bureaucratic platitudes. In the meanwhile, no-one is going anywhere in the blizzard: Ramsay can't march anywhere.

This is exactly what I was hinting at when I pointed out that Jon consulted no NW members when he reached the decision to march south.

[nirolo]

What comes out of this thread is that it's not actually possible for the Lord Commander *not* to take a part in the affairs of the Realm, at this stage. Once the Night's Watch accepted Stannis' assistance, they chose a side.

And Jon knew nothing of this 'accepting Stannis' assistance' since he was 'negotiating' with Tormund when Stannis arrived, and even if Castle Black knew Stannis was at another castle, Jon was in the cage and he didn't find out.

The neutrality was breached before him, and thanks to others accepting Stannis' help, he had to manoeuvre around it later on.

I'm pretty sure we can discuss Jon's culpability in causing Ramsay to turn his wrath toward the NW without discussing whether the NW can stay truly neutral.

So let's stay focused.

[SeanF]

I'm pretty sure we can discuss Jon's culpability in causing Ramsay to turn his wrath toward the NW without discussing whether the NW can stay truly neutral.

So let's stay focused.

We don't know for sure if the Pink Letter was even written by Ramsay. Even if it was, the reception given to Stannis and his Court was reason enough to rouse his anger.

But, the more I consider it, the more I think Jon should have just thrown his lot in completely with Stannis. Stannis alone has shown a willingness to defend the realms of men. The Boltons have shown none.