Was Jon Really Breaking his Vows?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Oh Ser Creighton, we do seem to have great difficulties communicating with each other. I know you didn't bring up the Christ thing; I was trying to kill 2 birds with one stone by addressing both (but, admittedly, you were indulging in it; even "ring leading" it one could say). And my "disagreement" was that just because it's been done a 100 times doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be revisited once in a while, since there's so much discord on the subject.

lol, about that Jon reread- for a Jon fan, I've really been doing a lot of apologizing for Alliser Thorne in there. I guess with your revised formula, you're now of the mind that everyone should bend to me after all (despite a recent assertion instigating rebellion against me, I mean).

no, the reread thread is really civil. We're mostly all Jon fans in there I think, but are actually pretty critical. Not much stanning going on. As a side note, I'm really not terribly thrilled by the blanket statements about his supposed crazed fandom, since there are a ton of posters here who do actually go well beyond the mindless stanning to take a measured look at his character. I don't think the Mods particularly appreciate these sorts of fandom critiques either. And, not to mention, on the topic of rabid fans, aren't you the one who keeps writing posts from the POV of LF? At least I've never seen Jon fans be that confused.

I'll have to pay more attention to the reread threads. I like Jon. I just don't love him. And I like to think that when I'm posting from the POV of LF, that it's giving someone who had a shit day or is just looking for a laugh, some sort of giggle. I don't really think I'm LF and I try hard not to engage in the rapid character bashing of characters I don't like.

[A Thousand Lives]

I believe he did not break his vows as Ramsay clearly states:

"Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you OR your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it."

The Night's Watch is definately being threatened here so I personally feel that any Lord Commander would have done the same in history.as it would fulfill the vow of being the shield that guards the realms of men. It's self-defense if anything at all. Bowen Marsh is just too much of a wildling hater and can't realize that the real enemy happens to be beyond the Wall in the others. He was more caught up in the Gift being occupied by them and the rescue mission at Hardhome to realize right from wrong imo.

[Direwolf of the Starks]

I believe he did not break his vows as Ramsay clearly states:

"Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you OR your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it."

The Night's Watch is definately being threatened here so I personally feel that any Lord Commander would have done the same in history.as it would fulfill the vow of being the shield that guards the realms of men. It's self-defense if anything at all. Bowen Marsh is just too much of a wildling hater and can't realize that the real enemy happens to be beyond the Wall in the others. He was more caught up in the Gift being occupied by them and the rescue mission at Hardhome to realize right from wrong imo.

I personally think that the Lannisters or Boltons were involved. They wouldn't really want a Stark in a position of power anywhere.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:bang: I cant believe I forgot that,

I can!

I hew to Bumps's interpretation, more or less. At some point the spirit of the law clashes with the letter, and you have to decide which matters more. In almost all cases, it's the spirit.

[nirolo]

I think the text from Jon's last chapter is meant to make us question whether Jon's decision to ride south is in keeping with his NW vow.

Here are the relevant quotes from that chapter:

Quote 1:

“I must do as I think best. With respect, Your Grace, the Wall is mine, and so is this decision.”

Clearly leading a ranging to Hardhome does not qualify as oathbreaking to Jon. One might ask why this is. My personal view is Jon reached this decision under the mindset as the Lord Commander of the Watch, and as such he is justified in doing so.

Quote 2:

“What do you mean to do, crow?”

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

Here is Jon's entire thought process prior to making the decision to march south. Equally important is the fact that GRRM has consciously revealed to us Jon's motives for doing so. What we have here is a conflicted man whose heart is being tugged by his present duty to his sworn brothers and his undying attachments to his actual brothers. The quotes in blue are Jon's rationale for keeping to his present course -- his duty as a man of the Night's Watch dominated his initial though process. The quotes in red are the reasons pulling Jon toward Winterfell -- Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya. No only this, Jon's thought process also reveals to us the particular part of of the Bastard Letter that Jon is fixated on: "My bride...my bride...my bride." Translation: Arya, Arya, Arya.

I think Jon knows he is motivated to go south by private reasons, and because of this he does not ask his sworn brothers to help him:

Quote 3:

“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from theskins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.”

Funny how Jon reminds his brothers that it is not their job to protect Stannis, Selyse, or Shireen. All this is to say Jon is not going south for these reasons. If Jon is not going south to meddle in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, then why does Jon believe doing so will mean "forswearing their vows"? If Jon is forced to face Ramsay in order to protect the NW, then Jon is fully justified in doing so, just like the NW is justified is marching north of the Wall to fight the wildlings who threaten the NW. But notice Jon does not mention protecting the NW in his reason for going south, what he says instead is, "This creature has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words." This quote combined with his thoughts of Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya (especially Arya) makes it clear that Jon is going south for private reasons, and as such he does not and cannot use the NW for that purpose. Granted, what is in Jon's best interest often coincides with the NW's best interest, but to Jon what makes all the difference is the motive behind his actions. If Jon is primarily motivated to go south by his desire to save his beloved little sister, then he is not acting as Lord Commander of the NW, his resulting actions are not justifiable by his oath, and he is dishonoring his vow to "pledge [his] life and honor to the Night’s Watch."

Just my normal two cents.

Discuss away.

[Nictarion]

. And I like to think that when I'm posting from the POV of LF, that it's giving someone who had a shit day or is just looking for a laugh, some sort of giggle. I don't really think I'm LF and I try hard not to engage in the rapid character bashing of characters I don't like.

I actually thought it was funny when you started doing it, and I salute you for not engaging in bashing characters you don't like :cheers: , I try to stay positive as well, and just defend the ones I like. I know how annoying it is to see characters you love constantly bashed on, To me being positive on a board devoted to a story we all really care about, will always be better than being negative.

[Nictarion]

I can!

I guess you have never forgotten any minor details from a story that's well over 5000 pages?

[SeanF]

Jon was certainly motivated to march South by his desire to protect Arya. That's clear from the text. My view, however, is that to do so involved no violation of his Night's Watch oath, given that he had been threatened with death by Ramsay Bolton. He was aware that many members of the NW would regard it as a violation of their oath to march South, and so released them from any obligation to march with him.

[nirolo]

I have to say, it is a curious thing to see Ramsay suddenly taking a keen interest in the NW and its Lord Commander in particular.

I wonder what might have peeked Ramsay's new found interest?

[butterbumps!]

Nirolo, I agree with your conclusion, but I got there a different way. That passage's adages parse his siblings into 3 categories:

The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Robb comes between "nothing less than treason," and "kill the boy." Jon once almost broke his vows for Robb (who was incidentally committing "treason"). He also has a dream in which he kills Robb, while thinking Maester Aemon's words "kill the boy" simultaneously. Robb's separateness makes sense on several levels: 1. Robb and Jon were extremely close; 2. Robb's Rebellion put him in nearly this same conundrum previously; 3. Robb was always beyond Jon's help-- even if Jon had deserted back in aGoT, Jon at Robb's side would not have mattered (as Mormont explains to him)

Bran, Rickon and Sansa come between "kill the boy," and "you know nothing." Even though I think that Jon unconsciously knows they are alive, I think this grouping between adages is about Jon's mourning the loss of these siblings. "Kill the boy, let the man be born" is about tempering oneself in the face of personal conflict. "You know nothing" doesn't truly mean he knows nothing, but rather, this advice was repeated by Jon to remember to keep perspective on matters. They are grouped like this because Jon was never in a position to save them; he mourns their loss, but is accepting them as lost and pushing beyond that.

Then comes Arya alone, between "you know nothing" and Ramsay's words. That Arya bookends this alone makes sense as it did for Robb earlier: 1. She and Jon were extremely close, 2. Ramsay's threat puts her into direct peril and unlike the case of marching to war with Robb, Jon is truly in the only position to save her 3. She's the only one of Jon's siblings left who can be saved by him.

I think this passage is saying that Jon accepts that he couldn't have helped his other siblings even if he'd tried. They were beyond his reach to save even if he had deserted. Now, however, Jon holds a degree of power (men follow him), and he won't be able to live with himself if he lets this last sibling slip by him, since he is the only one who can save her (you have to be able to "live with that choice until the end of your days").

Funny how Jon reminds his brothers that it is not their job to protect Stannis, Selyse, or Shireen. All this is to say Jon is not going south for these reasons. If Jon is not going south to meddle in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, then why does Jon believe doing so will mean "forswearing their vows"? If Jon is forced to face Ramsay in order to protect the NW, then Jon is fully justified in doing so, just like the NW is justified is marching north of the Wall to fight the wildlings who threaten the NW. But notice Jon does not mention protecting the NW in his reason for going south,

This is for the most part my feeling too. Ramsay directly threatened the Watch. As a direct threat, Jon was more than justified within the bounds of the practiced neutrality to move against Ramsay to end the threat. The Watchmen could have been part of it without breaking neutrality or dishonoring oaths.

Moving against Ramsay is NW business. BUT, Jon's own private motivations for doing so are not about NW business, as you say. It's a subtle, but really significant issue in terms of Jon's character.

I think there's even more than this though. Jon doesn't want the Watchmen to do this with him. He's been fighting tirelessly against the strict constructionist interpretations of the Watch and vows for the entire book by the Old Guard. To put it mildly, he's disappointed and disgusted by what the Watch has become. The question still for me is why didn't he want the Watchmen involved. Jon "sold" the mission in a way that would have ensured no Watchmen would want to take part. It was almost as though he said everything he could to convince the Watchmen not to come, and his glee when the wildlings, rather than the Watchmen volunteer is clear: "It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone."

So why didn't he want the Watchmen with him? Why did he sell this in such a way that the Watchmen would not follow? I can see part of the reason being that Jon knows his motivations are beyond Watch business; a "noble" interpretation would posit that Jon didn't want his men's neutrality compromised by his personal loyalties. A less generous interpretation might say that he's just so tired of having to explain the words and spirit of the vows to these tired old men that he favors the simplicity of the wildlings easy commitment to the cause, where he knows he won't have to explain everything he does ad nauseum. A more charitable rationale might be that Jon hasn't lost sight of the NW's goals, and wants to keep as many Watchmen at their posts since there is another army at his disposal to counter this other threat. Another reason could simply be that he trusts the wildlings more than his own men (which, let's be honest, it wasn't the wildlings who were planning to stab him).

[Guest]

I think the bottom line is this: Ramsay told him he was coming to kill Jon. As LC of NW, it is Jon's duty to NOT die if he can avoid it. He has a job to do. Ramsay is coming whether or not Jon is at the Wall. Therefore it is perfectly within his vows to go after Ramsay first.

I don't care what other motivation Jon might have had on top of it, the bottom line is that Ramsay threatened him and the NW. Jon has a right and a duty to protect himself and the Watch. Imo he doesn't ask the watch to come because they probably won't understand this. In this moment his duties as LC and his feelings as a Stark come to the same point.

The most logical reason he told the NW not to come, imo, is that so the other powers in the realm that can't use it as an excuse to wage war on the NW. That is why Jon isn't bringing his brothers with him - so if it comes back on him he can say it's his fault and they should leave the NW alone.

That doesn't mean that he is wrong to go, only that he understands that others will never see it correctly.

[nirolo]

Excellent analysis.

I was hoping to hear your feedback.

I like your analysis on Jon's thoughts. It does a much better job explaining the entire quote than mine. I'm glad we can both agree that Jon is motivated to move against Ramsay not as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but as Jon Snow of Winterfell. It is singularly important to not confuse the motivations behind Jon's actions.

Moving against Ramsay is NW business. BUT, Jon's own private motivations for doing so are not about NW business, as you say. It's a subtle, but really significant issue in terms of Jon's character.

I think there's even more than this though. Jon doesn't want the Watchmen to do this with him. He's been fighting tirelessly against the strict constructionist interpretations of the Watch and vows for the entire book by the Old Guard. To put it mildly, he's disappointed and disgusted by what the Watch has become. The question still for me is why didn't he want the Watchmen involved. Jon "sold" the mission in a way that would have ensured no Watchmen would want to take part. It was almost as though he said everything he could to convince the Watchmen not to come, and his glee when the wildlings, rather than the Watchmen volunteer is clear: "It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone."

So why didn't he want the Watchmen with him? Why did he sell this in such a way that the Watchmen would not follow? I can see part of the reason being that Jon knows his motivations are beyond Watch business; a "noble" interpretation would posit that Jon didn't want his men's neutrality compromised by his personal loyalties. A less generous interpretation might say that he's just so tired of having to explain the words and spirit of the vows to these tired old men that he favors the simplicity of the wildlings easy commitment to the cause, where he knows he won't have to explain everything he does ad nauseum. A more charitable rationale might be that Jon hasn't lost sight of the NW's goals, and wants to keep as many Watchmen at their posts since there is another army at his disposal to counter this other threat. Another reason could simply be that he trusts the wildlings more than his own men (which, let's be honest, it wasn't the wildlings who were planning to stab him).

Now this is the juicy part of the issue. First, I agree that Jon has no intention to get the NW involved. This explains why in his speech, Jon has made a point to emphasize Ramsay's making cloaks from the skins of wildling women. He is doing it on purpose to rile up the wildlings.

What I don't necessarily agree, or at least I am on the fence about, is whether moving against Ramsay is NW business. I can't elaborate fully due to time constraints, but here are the two chief reasons behind my reservations:

First, the decision to send Mance to rescue Arya is made solely between Jon, Mel, and Mance; it is a covert operation not in the interest of the NW and it is done so without consulting any NW brothers.

Second, the decision to march against Ramsay is reached solely between Jon and Tormund, and again it is done without bringing in any NW perspective.

I completely agree that Ramsay is threatening the NW, but Jon is the chief beneficiary that threat is aimed at, and we can see why...Jon took a risk for personal reasons, it backfired, and now the NW (as well as Jon) is paying the consequences. It is easy to see why Jon doesn't feel justified in getting the NW involved.

Jon is reaping what he sow, and he feels he alone should bear the burden.

So...yeah...discuss away.

[Guest]

Now this is the juicy part of the issue. First, I agree that Jon has no intention to get the NW involved. This explains why in his speech, Jon has made a point to emphasize Ramsay's making cloaks from the skins of wildling women. He is doing it on purpose to rile up the wildlings.

What I don't necessarily agree, or at least I am on the fence about, is whether moving against Ramsay is NW business. I can't elaborate fully due to time constraints, but here are the two chief reasons behind my reservations:

First, the decision to send Mance to rescue Arya is made solely between Jon, Mel, and Mance; it is a covert operation not in the interest of the NW and it is done so without consulting any NW brothers.

Second, the decision to march against Ramsay is reached solely between Jon and Tormund, and again it is done without bringing in any NW perspective.

I completely agree that Ramsay is threatening the NW, but Jon is the chief beneficiary that threat is aimed at, and we can see why...Jon took a risk for personal reasons, it backfired, and now the NW (as well as Jon) is paying the consequences. It is easy to see why Jon doesn't feel justified in getting the NW involved.

Jon is reaping what he sow, and he feels he alone should bear the burden.

So...yeah...discuss away.

Jon did not send Mance to rescue Arya, Mel did to gain Jon's favor.

[Sam with Hooters]

The Third Reed wrote:

Did Jon break his vows? Ramsay invited Jon to Winterfell. Doesn't that fall under guest right?

"Come here so I can kill you" isn't exactly a friendly invitation. Besides, would anyone trust Ramsay not to find a loophole, like not feeding his guests?

[Djinn]

if Jon broke his vows/duty to the NW, should Arya/no one execute him?

[Lord Damian]

Jon, once he became Lord Commander, took things and never looked back, he made decisions we, the readers knew and know to be the right ones but to the remnants of the Nights Watch, there were against their vows/protocol and Jon never adhered to Mel's warnings. Jon never saw it coming, the knife, nor the discontent.

[nirolo]

Jon did not send Mance to rescue Arya, Mel did to gain Jon's favor.

Let's not sugar coat it. Mel did it with Jon's blessing. Jon consented and desired it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Let's not sugar coat it. Mel did it with Jon's blessing. Jon consented and desired it.

And sent his own man (Edd Tollett) to collect the spearwives to accompany Mance. Spearwives who were part of the wildling population put under his authority by the express order of their captor, king Stannis.

[Guest]

And sent his own man (Edd Tollett) to collect the spearwives to accompany Mance. Spearwives who were part of the wildling population put under his authority by the express order of their captor, king Stannis.

He sent him to Long Barrow which is on the Wall. I don't think he sent him to actually go and get those girls, did he? I don't remember.

[Chaircat Meow]

He sent him to Long Barrow which is on the Wall. I don't think he sent him to actually go and get those girls, did he? I don't remember.

Yea he did. The castle Edd was sent to oversee was a different and unrelated job (although also involving spearwives).

Edd's role is mentioned at the end of the Jon POV where he reflects on the 'madness' of 'loosing' Mance.

I'd quote it if I had the book with me but I don't.