Does Tyrion + Sansa seem a logical conclusion ?

[Leto]

You are right. I should have done it in a more civil manner.

Though for me, respect is earned rather than a given.

ETA: Civility on the other hand should be a given -- I think this is what you are admonishing me for, and you are absolutely right for doing so :)

Indeed :)

[Kittykatknits]

A logical conclusion? Actually, the argument put forth in the OP sounds a lot more like a reason for shipping than anything else. An argument to support the two of them remaining together as a logical conclusion would be a bit strong if Martin's narrative style were taken in to account. Martin, for all his plot twists, isn't all that subtle in a lot of ways. There are threads on this board point out all the foreshadowing and devices that Martin uses to tell his story. As to Tyrion and Sansa as end game, there is absolutely none of this.

Their thought patterns post-Storm show the two seem to think of their marriage as over. Tyrion hardly thinks of her and only uses her as an excuse to avoid an interaction with Penny. His thoughts show he still doesn't know Sansa at all. As for her, Sansa replaces Tyrion with someone else in the marriage bed and only mentions him as an argument to avoid the engagement with HtH. Stannis calls her Lady Lannister and she is written out of Robb's will (a will that seems to have a lot of support per the GNC) while Tyrion is currently on the run for his life.

To be frank, there is more literary evidence that Sansa will end up with Sandor in the end and I HIGHLY doubt that is going to happen either.

[Propheticverses]

A logical conclusion? Actually, the argument put forth in the OP sounds a lot more like a reason for shipping than anything else. An argument to support the two of them remaining together as a logical conclusion would be a bit strong if Martin's narrative style were taken in to account. Martin, for all his plot twists, isn't all that subtle in a lot of ways. There are threads on this board point out all the foreshadowing and devices that Martin uses to tell his story. As to Tyrion and Sansa as end game, there is absolutely none of this.

Their thought patterns post-Storm show the two seem to think of their marriage as over. Tyrion hardly thinks of her and only uses her as an excuse to avoid an interaction with Penny. His thoughts show he still doesn't know Sansa at all. As for her, Sansa replaces Tyrion with someone else in the marriage bed and only mentions him as an argument to avoid the engagement with HtH. Stannis calls her Lady Lannister and she is written out of Robb's will (a will that seems to have a lot of support per the GNC) while Tyrion is currently on the run for his life.

To be frank, there is more literary evidence that Sansa will end up with Sandor in the end and I HIGHLY doubt that is going to happen either.

Your argument's well put :) & for that you have my thanks .

Trust me ... I am not one of those who find some sort of Solace in this particular wedding .. nor would I find any for of a negative emotion too . Their characters are something that I have found evolving over the course of 5 books in a contrsating manner .. yet somehow they are the victims of their circumstances as much as ny other character .

1. Tyrion's born in a great house that hasn't exactly been kind to him ( except for the name : which he has exploited to the max ! ) . He's learnt at an early age about how to survive a father who ignores him , a sister who hates him and an elder brother who 'sympathizes' with him . He's learnt to face the truth that the world ain't as rosy as in those fairy tales and that to survive he would have to kind of man-up.

In case of Sansa, she's born in a great house that puts family, duty ,, honor & even the weather over everything :P .. thus fostering in a environment of love & safety . She grows up with the lofty notions of Knighthood & chivalry from Septa's tales or from fancy books but has no inkling of the real world . A startling contrast with Tyrion .

2. Tyrion's first brush with tragedy has to be the the Tysha incident where he falls in love & then later his dreams are destroyed when Jaime tells she is a whore and that she was after his money . It is not illogical to assume a dwarf tragically believing that no lady would truly love him ( as reinforced by Sansa later ) . His father puts a rather Savage lesson by doing the 'you-already-know;what' with his guards. Way to go in developing love !!!

Sansa's first brush would have to be the unexpected death of Lady in her misguided attempt at protecting Joffrey ( the love of her girlish life ) ... The Queen puts forth a rather savage lesson in repayment of her love . Despite that, she still holds faith in the handsome prince.

3. Tyrion's capture by Catelyn for no fault of his own led into his subsequent unjust treatment by Lysa because he was a Lannister ..This was akin to Sansa been tortured by Joffrey for just being a Stark . In the Vale , Tyrion had Bronn to watch his back ... & in Kings Landing Sansa had Sandor watching her back ... Mind you both were not conventional means by any stretch of imagination.

4. Tyrion is the embodiment of a Drunken little lecher whose prone to ll manners of perversions .. while Sansa is akin to a little dove who 'sings' to perfection ( as quoted by the hound ) . Two absolutely contrasting personalities.

5. As clearly stated by either parties ... Tyrion uses his dwarfism as an armor .. whereas Sansa uses her lady-skills as an armor !

6. For Tyrion , his experiences with House 'Silverfist' had led him to be wary of all women ... whereas for Sansa , her experience with Joffrey had led her to question her beliefs ('You Sir.. are no knight !' )

7. At King's Landing .. Tyrion is the only high lord who is kind to her without any ulterior motives .. a fact that she ignores under that 'Lannister' tag.

8. In a small incident w.r.t. the Blackwater Bay . Tyrion rouses the city into battle when Joffrey chickens out & wins .. whereas Sansa consoles the weepy & scared ladies in the Queens chamber while the Queen has gone to salvage personal interests.

9. Regarding the marriage .. it would be easy for people to assume that Tyrion's getting everything -- a beautiful girl , lordhsip of a house & all other things . Considering what his house has done to her Tyrion tries his best to avoid the marriage but gets into it ... however resolves not to harass her . He could have raped her or done whatever he could with Sansa but the fact that he chose not to .... speaks volumes of his character.

For people who think Sansa was short-changed in the relation .. it is true that she was definitely 'short'-changed but given her condition as a hostage .. Tyrion was perhaps the best alternative for her .

Le me make it clear .. I am least interested in this wedding however the similarities & resonance I find between the characters convince me that their 'marriage' was not a bad thing after all.

[Eating My Wings]

What I find funny is you are the only one telling the joke, and it seems you are the only one laughing at it.

I laugh too.

[Eating My Wings]

Trust me , I have no way how he got that idea .... The funny thing is Tyrion was innocent as a lamb & Catelyn wrongly arrested him .. which ultimately led to Ned's beheading . I gather that this implies Tyrion was responsible ... hahaha . Funny that !!!

He told no one about Jaime's involvement in Bran's accident.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

If they both survive I'm fairly sure the marriage will be annulled, Tyrion won't want her to be tied to him against her will anymore, & supposedly Dany will give him Crastardly Rock.

[nirolo]

He told no one about Jaime's involvement in Bran's accident.

What makes you think Tyrion knew?

[David Selig]

What makes you think Tyrion knew?

The end of his first PoV chapter. Then there's his talk about it with Cersei in ACOK.

[Kittykatknits]

Le me make it clear .. I am least interested in this wedding however the similarities & resonance I find between the characters convince me that their 'marriage' was not a bad thing after all.

Your argument is based upon some character parallels and the conclusion you seem to draw is that their marriage continuing is both the logical end game and not a bad thing. Again, the points you are putting forth sound an awful lot like the criteria for shipping rather than textual evidence from the books. I don't dispute that their are character parallels between Tyrion and Sansa, those have been discussed many times on this board. However, Martin has done this with MANY of his characters in the series: Sansa and Cersei, Sansa and Arya, Sansa and Jon, Arya and Sandor, Sandor and Jaime, Jaime and Brienne, Catelyn and Cersei, Jon and Dany, Jorah and Daario, Roose and Tywin, and so on and so on. Are they all fated to end up together? Again, Martin uses a deliberate style to draw parallels between characters, showing the impact of decisions and circumstances. That's not foreshadowing.

If you want to build an argument that the two together is a logical conclusion, then pointing to hints and foreshadowing in the text would do it. However, there isn't anything there. Instead, we have statements from characters showing that her marriage would not be accepted in the North, an increase in Northern imagery in her chapters, and the fact that she calls him a liar (implying a lack of trust on her part). As for Tyrion, he seems to yearn for the ideal of Tysha more than anything and he is a kinslayer, the most reviled of people. That's it.

[Shebara]

I think at the end the war in Westeros will be finished and there will be peace...even between Stark and Lannister...at least I do hope so.

And a Stark/Lannister marriage could be a strong seal for that peace...if Sansa and Tyrion will somehow get together again and they both want it.

[nirolo]

The end of his first PoV chapter. Then there's his talk about it with Cersei in ACOK.

I'd like to see some quotes. Because I have a strong suspicion that we are about to debate over different interpretations of a particular text.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Here we go again!

I've managed to convince myself that Tyrion is going to die and thus set Sansa free . . . until she dies. Or the fact that she no longer has a claim to Winterfell (by the appearance of Rickon or Robb's will) will set her free, from the whole lot of leeches who want her. So nope, no Sansa <3 Tyrion in my book!

As for marriages solidifying a peace -- usually the peace comes first, then the marriage. For example, first the Tyrells helped the Lannisters defeat Stannis, then they were rewarded with a marriage to Joffrey -- and look how well that turned out!

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I'd like to see some quotes. Because I have a strong suspicion that we are about to debate over different interpretations of a particular text.

There can actually be little doubt that Tyrion had a pretty good idea about what (or more precisely who) caused Bran's fall.

And I see little reason for you voicing "strong suspicions" without even bothering to first look up yourself what is after all a pretty clear passage in the text. But if you want to, here you go (at least with the first of the two, since ACOK is not available electronically to me atm):

"I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say."

His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime, "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

He might not have known whether it was Jaime or Cersei who gave the actual shove, but he can hardly claim ignorance of the situation after that conversation. And obviously even before it he at least suspected, or why throw that line about being "most interested to hear what Bran might have to say" at Jaime at all.

[Minsc]

Hopefully not, as how the Dany/Drogo relationship was bad enough that we don't need another situation where a forced marriage develops into a Stockholmish love.

Furthermore, Sansa deserves more then just being a reward for Tyrion's character as how he is lonely, sad, and wanting someone to love him.

For people who think Sansa was short-changed in the relation .. it is true that she was definitely 'short'-changed but given her condition as a hostage .. Tyrion was perhaps the best alternative for her .

Being repeatedly punched in the gut is better then being repeatedly punched in the dick, but I rather think not getting punched at all is the best alternative.

[nirolo]

There can actually be little doubt that Tyrion had a pretty good idea about what (or more precisely who) caused Bran's fall.

And I see little reason for you voicing "strong suspicions" without even bothering to first look up yourself what is after all a pretty clear passage in the text. But if you want to, here you go (at least with the first of the two, since ACOK is not available electronically to me atm):

I know exactly what the quote is, but thank you nonetheless for pulling it up.

He might not have known whether it was Jaime or Cersei who gave the actual shove, but he can hardly claim ignorance of the situation after that conversation. And obviously even before it he at least suspected, or why throw that line about being "most interested to hear what Bran might have to say" at Jaime at all.

At best, Tyrion had a suspicion about who might have been responsible. This is hardly the same as "knowing".

And I will eagerly await the quote you guys are referring to in ACoK.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I'd like to see some quotes

I know exactly what the quote is

My bad, I didn't notice that you had completely given up on even the semblance of a rational conversation. Nice talking to you.

(And yes, I can't hit "send" without at least venting my mirth about your use of "at best" as another word for "even if I put both hands over my ears and scream loudly, I cannot deny that": :rofl: )

[nirolo]

My bad, I didn't notice that you had completely given up on even the semblance of a rational conversation. Nice talking to you.

Seriously. I never knew that it was my responsibility to provide quotes for the other side. Is this a new rule that I don't know about?

(And yes, I can't hit "send" without at least venting my mirth about your use of "at best" as another word for "even if I put both hands over my ears and scream loudly, I cannot deny that": :rofl: )

I'm glad I brought you laughter. Though I swear it was not my intended purpose.

Just to clarify, when I said "at best", it means "it is possible."

Now, I'm still waiting for that second quote, if anyone cares to indulge.

[Guest]

No, it's just not realistic. Even if we get over the whole Tyrion spiraling downward thing, and the bad stuff he's done since, and don't blame him for the rape of Tysha since he was just a kid being forced by his dad, this marriage is still no way no how gonna work.

And even if Sansa were willing, Tyrion would not be. Right now he's all obsessed with finding Tysha and trying to somehow absolve himself with her or regain what they had.

[butterbumps!]

@Nirolo

Tyrion most definitely knew Jaime was behind Bran's fall, as well as the reason why he fell since the already quoted citation from aGoT. But if further proof is needed, this, from aCoK, should put the issue to rest:

“I trust you’re pleased,” he said as she read. “You wanted the Stark boy dead, I believe.”

Cersei made a sour face. “It was Jaime who threw him from that window, not me. For love, he said, as if that would please me. It was a stupid thing to do, and dangerous besides, but when did our sweet brother ever stop to think?”

“The boy saw you,” Tyrion pointed out.

“He was a child. I could have frightened him into silence.” She looked at the letter thoughtfully. “Why must I suffer accusations every time some Stark stubs his toe? This was Greyjoy’s work, I had nothing to do with it.”

[Faint]

I used to think this was more of a possibility until reading the last book. This narrative thread was completely dropped and there was no indication or any build up to it being taken up again.