HouseSerenity Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Why did Catelyn never take the title of Queen Mother?(or Queen Dowager, I'm not sure which one applies where)And, more interestingly, why did Robb never appoint a Hand of the King and if he had, who would it have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 No one ever referred to Cat as a Queen, to my knowledge.I imagine the Blackfish would've been his Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Blackfish would've been his Hand.Not sure about Cat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 I imagine it was because Robb was still at war, and didn't have much time to assign titles and such.But I agree with The Drunkard, the Blackfish likely would have been his hand if he won independence. It would be a good way to manage to tie in the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Brynden Tully, the Warden of the Southern Marches, was Robb's de facto Hand of the King.As to Catelyn, yes, she technically speaking could have styled herself as queen mother, but not queen dowager (because Ned was never a king). I'm surprised she didn't, but then again it's just one more thing that separates her from Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 No one ever referred to Cat as a Queen, to my knowledge.I imagine the Blackfish would've been his Hand.Bran & Rickon were refered to as princes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterz Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Bran & Rickon were refered to as princes though.As it was perfectly normal considering that their brother was crowned and had no kids.As for Catelyn, she's the mother of the King but that doesn't necessarily make her Queen. Cersei was called a Queen because she was married to a King and then her children followed the line of succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 The Kings of Winter didn't have a Hand of the King. The position of the hand is a Targaryen invention. The BlackFish was the closest thing Robb had to a Hand though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 As for Catelyn, she's the mother of the King but that doesn't necessarily make her Queen. Cersei was called a Queen because she was married to a King and then her children followed the line of succession.Well. Maybe, like you and AM say, Cat thought that she wasn't one, as her husband was never king nor was Robb when she gave birth to him.It might also reflect that Cat wasn't all too enthousiastic about her son's rise to royalty. Then again why others never refered to her as queen is kind of surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fightbringer Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Robb, as King in the North, wouldnt have had a lot of the titles that went with KL, because they didnt really exist in the old kingdom, because in part i think the first men belief is that you should take responsibility for your own duties, so they would look upon kings like robert who gets his hand to do all the work for him as not honourable since your not doing your duty. Also its part of northern culture to be more simple than the south, and not to hand out empty titles like 'queen mother'. Also the belief in the seven would mean that there would be no kingsguard. That said, Robb did have advisers, his closest one being the blackfish, though mainly on military matters, so brynden is his closest adviser but not de facto hand of the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor the Cuddly Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 But they were coming out of the Iron Throne, so why not take a tradition or two with them, if only to make the Riverlanders and (hopefully...) Valemen feel more at home in their new Kingdom.Just take the Hand (useful title, allows the King to delegate responsibility) and Kingsguard (functional, don't need to keep it to 7 and remove restrictions from non-knights.) Rename if them you want, but while you're establishing a new kingdom, why not take the parts of the old one that worked and manipulate it like that.So Robb'd set up the Blackfish as Hand, and when he died, maybe Edmure, depending on how he developed.A "Kingsguard" (or just a King's Personal Guard, just remove the knighthood, celibacy and landless requirements.) that could be made up of number of good warriors from each principal region. (1/2 from North, 1/2 from Riverlands, if the Vale never joined. With the vale, 1/3 North, 1/3 Riverland, 1/3 Vale)A Master of Ships (maybe a hereditary title for the House Manderly? Given that they've got the main "real" port in the North) could also be of use. Once the Navy was built however.And of course, Warden titles would need to be given out. (Warden of the Wall: Umber, Warden of the Eastern Sea: Manderly, etc. etc. etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Doesn't Queen Mother only apply if she was a queen before her son became king? As in, Ned would have had to be a king when Cat was widowed to get the title. She doesn't pick it up because Ned was never king. The Westeros title Hand of the King is a Targaryen invention. For all intents and purposes, the Blackfish is the only person who is elevated above the rank of a standard lord. Even Edmure, while the Iron Thrones rebellious interim Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, is second to the Blackfish. Outside of that title, the hierarchy for the King of the North appears to be no different from the Lord Paramount of the North. Other than Bryndens title, Robb doesn't seem to have carried over much from the Iron Throne traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Queen Mother is only a title for widowed queen consorts, which Catelyn never was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 I imagine the Blackfish would've or Lord Piper or Lord Blackwood. As for northerners maybe Robbett Glover or the Greatjon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Robert didn't take a Hand or a Kingsguard before he was on the Iron throne either. Besides the position of Hand of the king and the Kingsguard were both inventions of the Targaryens weren't they? I'm sure the Kings of the North had their own unique offices of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redviper9 Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Cat could call herself Lady Dowager of Winterfell, but I'm not sure if she could claim the title of Queen Mother.Regarding the Hand of the King and the Kingsguard, as has been noted by many above, those are Targaryen institutions that did not exist in Westeros prior to the Conquest (Victarion reminds Asha before the Kingsmoot that no past King of the Islands ever had a Hand). That being the case, the Blackfish does appear to have become Robb's de facto Hand.As for the Kingsguard, that institution is intimately tied to knighthood and the Faith of the Seven, which are very rare in the North outside of White Harbor. However, Robb did have a personal guard made up of the sons and daughters of his bannermen that acted much like a Kingsguard. Members included Theon Greyjoy, Smalljon Umber, Dacey Mormont, Eddard and Torrhen Karstark, Wendel Manderly, Daryn Hornwood, Robin Flint, Owen Norrey, Olyvar and Perwyn Frey, Patrek Mallister, Lucas Blackwood, and Raynald Westerling (some of them were tasked with escorting Cat to the Stormlands, and very few are left after the Red Wedding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword of the Mid-Afternoon Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 He probably takes on the Blackfish as his Hand although as others mentioned the position is a Targ invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frosted King Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 His mother would likely advise against a kingsguard institution, as Jaime Lannister and Cersei proved how dangerous it could be.Guards surely, but not a dedicated entity given to political manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordouche Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Robert didn't take a Hand or a Kingsguard before he was on the Iron throne either. Besides the position of Hand of the king and the Kingsguard were both inventions of the Targaryens weren't they? I'm sure the Kings of the North had their own unique offices of power.This. As far as we're aware, these positions didn't exist in the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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