[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[Bran's Legs]

You can tell they are Dany fanboys by everything they say about her and by the fact that everything her character has done so far has been portrayed as completely good and correct with completely good and correct outcomes.

They're making Daairo more worthy of her in the show, instead of the lowlife he was in the books. The racism angle is a separate subject, but there can't really be any doubt that the Mysha ending where she is practically in the Jesus on the cross formation arms outstretched lifted by the crowd was not intended to glorify her as a messiah figure.

Building her up to knock her down. Book it.

[zaphodbrx]

Some more comments from non-book readers. Not really a surprise

The scene with Robb and Talisa discussing asking Walder Frey for help is so telling. Robb was really stupid. He said himself there is only one person in the kingdom with a large army who hasn't already sided with the Lannisters, Frey. Robb should have known if everyone else had folded in the likelihood that Frey would was strong. Robb was so weak. Dude should've tucked his tail between his legs and sailed to Volantis with his trick. I should have known then Robb was done. He was too distracted trying to impress wifey.

ETA: Rewatching reminds me how much I really grew to despise Robb. He got what he deserved.

The red wedding had the shock factor, but after a while, this is what people think of Robb from the previous episodes.

I'm more interested in what they end up doing not their life long goals. Like Rob and his taking over the entire realm being sidelined by his pursuit of his cute nurse made me lose all respect for the character. Stannis getting bossed around by some crazy red witch without showing much agency makes me lose respect for him being a real player in the Game of Thrones. Getting shown 2 minutes screen time for each of the dozen plot lines makes it very hard to feel like stuff is actually happening a lot of the time.

Especially when SO MANY other plotlines are sidelined to show white-Tyrion and whores and Lannister rubbish, no wonder there is a shortage of screen time..

[Solaris]

I didn't mind the last episode. I watched the whole season in a marathon because I cant stand waiting week by week for episodes!

I think it set up for season 4 nicely without at all attempting to beat the Red Wedding. You cant ram a whole lot of WTF into two consecutive episodes. People not familiar with the books were probably still reeling from the Red Wedding and doing any more of that kind of shock horror I think would have been too much and UnCat would have cheeezed the shit out of it for absolutely. The readership reacted badly to her not being dead dead in the ground for Gods sake it probably would have been worse if she arose in the last episode. To me everything is left hanging nicely where you are fooled into believing everyone that is still alive is tucked away safe somewhere (except Theon) until season 4.

I got the sense that everyone is where they should be to kick off for next year. It was nicely done, tidy - leaving you with questions enough to drive you mad until the next season.

I am interested in where they are taking Shae and the role they have created for her. I was gutted by Roz's untimely demise, I was sick a little upon seeing her full of crossbow bolts. As irrelevant as these two characters are to the books I think they give something to the series that otherwise would be totally lost to its subtleties and nuance if they were not there spelling it out for everyone.

Shae is there to assist the POV of Sansa (as well as Tyrion I suppose), how the hell else are we going to perceive what is actually going on without her when Sansa still has her head in the clouds more or less, just as Roz was there to shed light on LF who is so subtle in the books that it would have been an impossibility to force across the idea of how deeply involved in every aspect of the game he truly is. (however my appreciation of these two characters may strictly be due to the fact I know the books and can see their worth where story telling is concerned.)

I was pleased with Dany's development, I think it's important to underscore her humanity and mercy before we fully see the fire and blood side of her.

I honestly cant fault the series for the steps it's taking. Sure I would have preferred the purist method with zero deviation but I cannot see how it is possible with this style of writing and the scale of it. I think this is an awesome piece of work regardless of deviations and when I stop protesting "it isn't like that in the books!" I appreciate the work for what it is - an epic series.

Cant wait for 4 to be over so I can marathon it too :D

[boojam]

The Yunkai scene is another example of lazy attention to detail. All they had to do was put in ONE LINE from Dany about how the slave soldiers wouldn't fight the unsullied on a large scale, but would quit on the slave masters...and then Jorah's line about 'you were right, they laid down their arms' makes sense.

It's easy to connect the two, but HBO no longer bothers with these small continuity details, despite how easy it is to eliminate them. It's not a big deal, in the same way its not a big deal that it appears that 3 men were victorious against about 30 soldiers with all 3 surviving...you know...because its a fantasy series, LOL.

It's not HBO but Dave and Dan who have continuity problems.

If you watch Season 1 Episode 1 on the DVD set with D and D's commentary they talk about a continuity error (or maybe more than one) in the before the opening of the credit sequence. (I did not really notice myself.)

They have done this now and then. There are editors but as showrunners they seem to have last say on everything including the final cut of every episode. This show may not be unique in how many separate threads it has, but I can't remember one hour (sometime plus a few min.) shows that will jam so much into such a short amound of time. I think I counted 8 threads one episode that were visited 2 or 3 times.

I have complained about this before , glorious attention to detail goes into production values, but sometimes teleplay continuity , seems for this show, to need like quadruple proofing.

Maybe their directors do shoot more footage then the editing suffers from the shoehorning.

[Khal-a-bunga]

They did have that "one line" in their very first scene of the episode:

Dany: "Where?"

Daario: "There. There; it's a back gate. My men use it when they visit Yunkai's bed slaves"

Jorah: "Your men, but not you?"

Daario: "I have no interest in slaves. A man can not make love to property. This is where we enter the city - very few guards, they know me. They'll let me inside."

Barristan: "We're not going to sneak an army through a back gate."

Daario: "I kill the guards. I take your two best men and lead them through the back streets, which I know well, and open the front gates. Then comes the army. Once the walls are breached the city will fall in hours."

There is even a call back to this conversation when Daario,Jorah, and Grey Worm are fighting the guards when they enter the city. Jorah says something along the lines of, "Is that what you call a few guards?" before they're confronted by even more guards. And Dany asks Barristan how long it takes to sack a city, which she surely would not assume was being done by three men alone. Not one of my friends, none of which have read the books, had any particular confusion here. None of the non-reader reviews I read about the episode seemed to have any issue following what happened, either. Sure, they noted that we didn't get to see the actual battle itself (budget), but there was no confusion over the logic. So this must be some kind of anomaly.

[boojam]

There is even a call back to this conversation when Daario,Jorah, and Grey Worm are fighting the guards when they enter the city. Jorah says something along the lines of, "Is that what you call a few guards?" before they're confronted by even more guards. And Dany asks Barristan how long it takes to sack a city, which she surely would not assume was being done by three men alone. Not one of my friends, none of which have read the books, had any particular confusion here. None of the non-reader reviews I read about the episode seemed to have any issue following what happened, either. Sure, they noted that we didn't get to see the actual battle itself (budget), but there was no confusion over the logic. So this must be some kind of anomaly.

I think the anomaly is that the dialog was there , but when the footage was being cut someone truncated the scene to fit time alloted , but we never get the 'extended' version , as far as I know, on HBO DVD of any show they do, out takes sometimes and a few other things.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I think the anomaly is that the dialog was there , but when the footage was being cut someone truncated the scene to fit time alloted , but we never get the 'extended' version , as far as I know, on HBO DVD of any show they do, out takes sometimes and a few other things.

Doubtful that there is anything extra. The scene cut off where it did deliberately, so as to leave the fate of those three characters unresolved. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is a common form of misdirection in film, and is used most often to take the focus off of the scene or sequence where the shit will really hit the fan. The "anomaly" I spoke of was the fact that this forum seems to be the only place I've personally seen any confusion over what happened there. Whether that is a result of attempting to reconcile the differences between the show and the source material, I couldn't say, but I don't think there's much more to discuss about it, so I'll leave it at that.

[protar]

Doubtful that there is anything extra. The scene cut off where it did deliberately, so as to leave the fate of those three characters unresolved. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is a common form of misdirection in film, and is used most often to take the focus off of the scene or sequence where the shit will really hit the fan. The "anomaly" I spoke of was the fact that this forum seems to be the only place I've personally seen any confusion over what happened there. Whether that is a result of attempting to reconcile the differences between the show and the source material, I couldn't say, but I don't think there's much more to discuss about it, so I'll leave it at that.

While I agree that it wasn't that confusing, I have to be fair, seen a couple of people under the impression that Jorah, Daario and Greyworm took the city by themselves. So it could have been done a bit better (maybe with a few fewer guards jumping out) but it's not a huge issue imo.

[boojam]

Doubtful that there is anything extra. The scene cut off where it did deliberately, so as to leave the fate of those three characters unresolved. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is a common form of misdirection in film, and is used most often to take the focus off of the scene or sequence where the shit will really hit the fan. The "anomaly" I spoke of was the fact that this forum seems to be the only place I've personally seen any confusion over what happened there. Whether that is a result of attempting to reconcile the differences between the show and the source material, I couldn't say, but I don't think there's much more to discuss about it, so I'll leave it at that.

No I still find the 'cut-away' ambiguous.

Indeed I have seen enough visual drama to fill in the blanks... if that's what they intended.

I don't think there is any confusion there is a discontinuity between what is said and what we see on the screen.

I mean when you see that second wave of soldiers show up they don't thrown down their weapons but take up a fighting stance.

Now they don't do anything, but , man, they is a quick cut to Dany's tent leaving us in the lurch as visual narrative.

I think the fix up would have been for Jorah to have just added just one sentence to his description of the battle.

(I have not seen other discussion of this , but I don't read all the forums , even the board at IMDB.)

I think it was a glitch and leave it at that.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Dany asks Barristan how long it takes to sack a city, insinuating that the city is being sacked. She doesn't mention that Jorah, Daario, and Grey Worm never returned or opened the gates. It wasn't a glitch; you just didn't like how it played out. I, too, would have like to see some of the actual battle, but understand why we didn't. Fair enough, and we'll leave it at that.

[zaphodbrx]

It's amusing to see show-fanbois tie themselves into knots trying to explain lazy writing.

Even if you really stretch it to explain Yunkai, there is so much more that is simply indefensible.

Example.

1. Sam and Gilly are running from a pack of ravens. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.

2. Sam and Gilly are fine, just walking through the woods. No explanation is provided.

Let's face it, D&D are lazy hack writers who should never have been allowed near a masterpiece like that of GRRM. They are rewriting and making up their own storyline according to their whims, it hasn't been an adaption of the book for a really long time now. That's just the truth.

[The Mondrian Oak]

It's amusing to see show-fanbois tie themselves into knots trying to explain lazy writing.

Even if you really stretch it to explain Yunkai, there is so much more that is simply indefensible.

Example.

1. Sam and Gilly are running from a pack of ravens. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.

2. Sam and Gilly are fine, just walking through the woods. No explanation is provided.

Let's face it, D&D are lazy hack writers who should never have been allowed near a masterpiece like that of GRRM. They are rewriting and making up their own storyline according to their whims, it hasn't been an adaption of the book for a really long time now. That's just the truth.

You do realize your post is the perfect example of irrational book fanboysm, right? Just checking.

[Pinkie Baelish]

It's amusing to see show-fanbois tie themselves into knots trying to explain lazy writing.

Even if you really stretch it to explain Yunkai, there is so much more that is simply indefensible.

Example.

1. Sam and Gilly are running from a pack of ravens. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.

2. Sam and Gilly are fine, just walking through the woods. No explanation is provided.

Let's face it, D&D are lazy hack writers who should never have been allowed near a masterpiece like that of GRRM. They are rewriting and making up their own storyline according to their whims, it hasn't been an adaption of the book for a really long time now. That's just the truth.

Well said. I was so disgusted that the show completely strayed away from the books in seasons 2 and 3, excluding events such as the Battle of the Blackwater, Renly's death, Battle on the Fist of the First Men, Theon seizing Winterfell and faking Bran and Rickon's deaths, Catelyn releasing Jaime, Jaime getting his hand cut off, Beric vs Hound, Sam the Slayer, Jon breaking his vows, Queenscrown, Dracarys, the Red Wedding etc etc. Like you said, that's just the truth.

And who's to say that the ravens were chasing Sam and Gilly? They might have just been used to create a cool ending shot.

[Miodrag]

Well said. I was so disgusted that the show completely strayed away from the books in seasons 2 and 3, excluding events such as the Battle of the Blackwater, Renly's death, Battle on the Fist of the First Men, Theon seizing Winterfell and faking Bran and Rickon's deaths, Catelyn releasing Jaime, Jaime getting his hand cut off, Beric vs Hound, Sam the Slayer, Jon breaking his vows, Queenscrown, Dracarys, the Red Wedding etc etc. Like you said, that's just the truth.

Do you realize that none of the events you counted - without a possible exception of Dracarys - was depicted in the show the way it was written in the books? Yeah, they included all of them, but, along the way, they changed every single one of them. Some more, some less; some skillfully, some not so; some maybe for a reason, some who knows why... But, they've all been changed. GoT certainly isn't a faithful adaptation as many claim. Just because they didn't exclude main plot points of the original story that is undoubtedly plot dependent, doesn't mean it's a faithful adaptation, let alone a successful one.

[boojam]

Dany asks Barristan how long it takes to sack a city, insinuating that the city is being sacked. She doesn't mention that Jorah, Daario, and Grey Worm never returned or opened the gates. It wasn't a glitch; you just didn't like how it played out. I, too, would have like to see some of the actual battle, but understand why we didn't. Fair enough, and we'll leave it at that.

The amusing thing about the somewhat loose structured visual narrative in this instance is that nobody is going to ever remember it, this was "The Rains of Castamere" episode, the only thing viewers will ever note is the last act.

So will leave it at agreeing to disagree.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Do you realize that none of the events you counted - without a possible exception of Dracarys - was depicted in the show the way it was written in the books? Yeah, they included all of them, but, along the way, they changed every single one of them. Some more, some less; some skillfully, some not so; some maybe for a reason, some who knows why... But, they've all been changed. GoT certainly isn't a faithful adaptation as many claim. Just because they didn't exclude main plot points of the original story that is undoubtedly plot dependent, doesn't mean it's a faithful adaptation, let alone a successful one.

The word to adapt means "to modify something to make it suitable for a specific use or situation". Not to "to copy and paste for the sake of the original medium".

[Miodrag]

The word to adapt means "to modify something to make it suitable for a specific use or situation". Not to "to copy and paste for the sake of the original medium".

Thanks. Didn't know that. But, even with this in my mind now, I still can't understand why is it so strange to question the final product of the adapting process. Wouldn't it be "the perfect example of irrational show fanboyism" to reject all the criticism just because "changes had to be made"? Do bad changes also receive a free-pass because of the meaning of the word "to adapt"? Were bad changes also necessary in modifying the source material?

And, since we're in the word-meaning area, even if they copy-pasted everything from the books (let's speculate it's financially possible) it still wouldn't affect "the original medium". The books would've been just as they are. Not a bit different. The show, however, would've been infinitely better than it is now, with all the embarrassingly stupid "changes", "modifications" and "additions" they decided to put in.

[Khal-a-bunga]

It's amusing to see show-fanbois tie themselves into knots trying to explain lazy writing.

What a failure of a post. By your logic, using dialogue from the show is an example of tying myself into a knot... Because that makes sense.

Do you realize that none of the events you counted - without a possible exception of Dracarys - was depicted in the show the way it was written in the books? Yeah, they included all of them, but, along the way, they changed every single one of them. Some more, some less; some skillfully, some not so; some maybe for a reason, some who knows why... But, they've all been changed. GoT certainly isn't a faithful adaptation as many claim. Just because they didn't exclude main plot points of the original story that is undoubtedly plot dependent, doesn't mean it's a faithful adaptation, let alone a successful one.

Yes, clearly all of the mainstream and critical praise, awards recognition, and the enormous number of fans the show has garnered dictate that this is an unsuccessful adaptation. You're right; everyone else is wrong.

With that in mind, I'd be interested in hearing about some adaptations you view as successful. Furthermore, what criteria do you use to judge whether or not an adaptation is successful? Fidelity to the text? An understanding of the thematic underpinning of the source material being conveyed? The very fact that you think this would be a better show if they were financially able to "copy-and-paste" the text to the screen tells me about all I need to know, but I'd be interested in hearing it, nonetheless.

[flinn]

Thanks. Didn't know that. But, even with this in my mind now, I still can't understand why is it so strange to question the final product of the adapting process. Wouldn't it be "the perfect example of irrational show fanboyism" to reject all the criticism just because "changes had to be made"? Do bad changes also receive a free-pass because of the meaning of the word "to adapt"? Were bad changes also necessary in modifying the source material?

And, since we're in the word-meaning area, even if they copy-pasted everything from the books (let's speculate it's financially possible) it still wouldn't affect "the original medium". The books would've been just as they are. Not a bit different. The show, however, would've been infinitely better than it is now, with all the embarrassingly stupid "changes", "modifications" and "additions" they decided to put in.

I disagree, I think some of the changes were better than the books, some not as good.

In a whole, I would rate the shows as good as the books and vice versa.

[teemo]

I think D&D's relatives frequent this forum.