[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[Nezzer]

Stannis has really been butchered, but why are people complaining about him laughing? He smiles and laughs many times in the books, and this was the first time he laughed in the show. I thought the laugh and his last lines to be very in-character for him, despite the butchering in the rest of the scene. He finally showed a bit of the sense of humor he has in the books.

[Miodrag]

Ya know, if they refuse to show Stannis on screen, they can have Dinklage talk about him, LOL.

Perfectly put. Instead of talking about Stannis and other contenders/rivals/enemies, they keep debating Bronn's manners, following the steps of last season when they were debating fish-pie and grammar.

[boojam]

No show is contractually obligated to do stuff it doesn't want. If they don't want to use an actor, they don't have to: they just pay him for the episodes they don't shoot, or they renegotiate, or what have you. As it is, I'm pretty sure that they used him as much as they did not for contractual reasons but because they wanted to. They make a lot of decisions based on how much they personally like an actor/character (Benioff has quite directly said that the main reason we followed Robb in S2 is because they liked Richard Madden).

Worst case scenario, he walks because he doesn't get the exposure/storyline that he was promised, and at the end of the day, no one actor -- especially one who isn't a central cast member and isn't a marquee name -- should be able to hold the show hostage. (Well, Peter Dinklage can. But the rest, eh, you can recast if absolutely necessary. Someone will no doubt leap forward with the problems of Linda Hamilton leaving Beauty and the Beast, but that was one of the two central characters in a very small cast, literally a titular character. I don't think the huge ensemble that is GoT is as sensitive to recasting as some seem to think.)

It's interesting every veteran actor on the show, I think this is true, has said they took the role because the writing was so good. For instance Charles Dance has said it so many times I have lost count. I don't know what they think about the global dramatic structure of a season , if any have said something I have not heard it.

You are right about Dinklage , but also he seems happy, I get the impression he is quite serious and not exactly fond of the fame, but he's a trooper when it comes to preseason promotion,.... lord he is in 8 upcoming films, one is one of those a comic book 'blockbuster' (will probably make a billion dollars in China!) I bet he picks up a nice check for that one. Almost every actor with a speaking part is recognized by a large audience now.

For all the young actors , even those with experience but just starting out, this show has to be a boon, if they didn't have an agent before I bet they do now.

Old hands like Liam Cunningham and Charles Dance seem to relish their roles and seem to have fun. Dance does follow the shows 'radio silence' stricture, but does not give a damn if he happens give away a thing like giving away like were he will be on a certain date , thus leaking HBO's mysterious 'green lighting'.

I can think of only two anomalies, Clive Mantle , who I think walked, or rather did not report for season 2, we still don't know that story.

The other is more odd Conan Stevens , he apparently wanted back after his Hobbit gig, I don't know if HBO or the show runners black listed him, or if he really even got into trouble... a mystery.

I did notice Ian Whyte did not return as Gregor this season, tho he was the giant in the first episode, or I guess one must say a VFX giant, that did not just look like prosthetics and make up!

Eugene Simon just totally vanished this season, Lancel Lannister is still a living character by A Dance with Dragons, but he is not even listed as under contract for 2012 on IMDB.

[maria underfoot]

Has anyone else noticed that they're treating Varys as a "better" man than LF? Better as in both more capable, and more honorable.

LF is portrayed as an idiot who grins and makes empty threats. I don't get a sense of danger from him at all, he's so flat. And he comes out as a total villain, which he may be in the books as well, but they're overplaying that card, what with Ros and all. Varys is portrayed as much more intelligent and "innocent".

And I think that they've messed up when it comes to depicting what the game of thrones really is, they messed up the proportions and the players. By stepping away from the politics, cause we've seen nothing of that, except for Tywin saying to his children that they needed to get married and reproduce in order to protect their family name, they step away from the essence of the books, which ultimately is the game of thrones, not the dragons, nor the whores, nor Pod's skills in the sack, nor Cersei and her children.

My unsullied friends think that Tyrion, Tywin and Varys are players, and they include fan-favorite characters like Dany, who is far far away, Robb or even Cersei. They think that the game of thrones is about who talks the most, or who is more prominent and loud. They totally neglect Roose, LF, Stannis, the silent, but more dangerous players.

[Le Cygne]

This season has been the season of the random, unconnected scenes. Why was Cat talking about not loving Jon Snow for instance? Did that scene even have a point?

Yes, random and unconnected.

I'm still trying to figure out what was the point of the Arya/Tywin scenes.

Stannis or Catelyn has less lines than Shae the funny whore -__-. Catelyn has as much lines as BRONN, this is how much she got downplayed.

This is so wrong.

[FattyPeon]

Has anyone else noticed that they're treating Varys as a "better" man than LF? Better as in both more capable, and more honorable.

LF is portrayed as an idiot who grins and makes empty threats. I don't get a sense of danger from him at all, he's so flat. And he comes out as a total villain, which he may be in the books as well, but they're overplaying that card, what with Ros and all. Varys is portrayed as much more intelligent and "innocent".

And I think that they've messed up when it comes to depicting what the game of thrones really is, they messed up the proportions and the players. By stepping away from the politics, cause we've seen nothing of that, except for Tywin saying to his children that they needed to get married and reproduce in order to protect their family name, they step away from the essence of the books, which ultimately is the game of thrones, not the dragons, nor the whores, nor Pod's skills in the sack, nor Cersei and her children.

My unsullied friends think that Tyrion, Tywin and Varys are players, and they include fan-favorite characters like Dany, who is far far away, Robb or even Cersei. They think that the game of thrones is about who talks the most, or who is more prominent and loud. They totally neglect Roose, LF, Stannis, the silent, but more dangerous players.

They're supposed to neglect Roose until RW, LF until PW, and Stannis until he reaches the Wall.

Show-Littlefinger seems dangerous to me. The thing about Varys outsmarting him, well I think that was written so that when the PW happens, LF will seem all the more genius.

Also I don't exactly know what "player" means but I'm pretty sure Varys is one. And Tywin has a song about him ffs.

[IamMe90]

I'm still trying to figure out what was the point of the Arya/Tywin scenes.

It's true that the Arya/Tywin scenes weren't really necessary, however I was never really a fan of the book roose/arya scenes anyway. And, at least the tywin/arya scenes were filmed when the original show writing was still fresh. Those scenes, regardless of their necessity were excellently written and I quite enjoyed them - now the book deviated scenes are trite and bogged down with cliches.

[boojam]

Has anyone else noticed that they're treating Varys as a "better" man than LF? Better as in both more capable, and more honorable.

LF is portrayed as an idiot who grins and makes empty threats. I don't get a sense of danger from him at all, he's so flat. And he comes out as a total villain, which he may be in the books as well, but they're overplaying that card, what with Ros and all. Varys is portrayed as much more intelligent and "innocent".

That's the impression I got of Varys in the books, he has some kind of mysterious agenda , he explains how much he hates magic , yet considering what Westeros is up against from the North seems it going to take some magic to stop them.

Aidan Gillen seemed so perfect the first season, and can still be good here and there, but teleplays have had him spouting lines and taking on personas that don't quite seem fit Petyr Baelish , it's as if the Dave and Dan have lost their grip on character.

Still my impression , from the books, was that Varys was always one step ahead of LF , even when it seemed he was not.

[zaphodbrx]

More examples of disjointed scenes

Sam & Gilly running away from ravens -> They are fine

Ygritte teleporting to Jon

A whole horde of wildlings teleporting past the wall, while only 4 guys climbed to the top.

What the hell happened in Yunkai. I still don't know.

[six]

I toyed with this idea too when I thought of all these changes in characters that could have been avoided most of the time simply by keeping the dialogue in the book intact (this would have change A LOT in Stannis' arc even if they wanted to free Gendry in episode 10, there is a huge difference between 'the boy will die' and 'sacrifice... it's never easy, or no real sacrifice' etc). and they've got some characters' relationships with each others really wrong. And everytime we complain about these showdefenders says how we lack screentime.

I first thougth that they might not be doing this, councouisly, being biased after reading the books like any fan, about their favorites, but now that I think of it it's clear that they're concentrating more on some characters and not on others I mean if you watch the 'inside episodes' I noticed that they mostly speak about same characters ignoring some others eventhough there's been great plot development on the otherside. And there's also the number of lines per character which provides further proof(from some poster in WIC) :

Sum of these numbers make 2625. Now let's look at King's Landing characters' sum (Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei,Sansa, Joffrey, Margaery, Olenna, Shae, Varys,Bronn, Littlefinger) : 937, so 35.7% of the whole story.

Let's compare it with to books, going till the chapter 56 of aSoS (the Bran at Nightfort), and the number of KL chapters (Sansa+Tyrion) is 9, so 15.8% of the story taking in account the prologue too.

So there's over two times more time spent in KL in the show than in the books, well I hope its clear why the other characters lack screen time! For more whiteTyrion and whores and useless stuff. With that much time spent on KL they didn't even managed to get Sansa right.

And looking again at the numbers, WHY Tyrion has that much lines, he basically does nothing big in this part of aSoS except marrying and whining. Stannis or Catelyn has less lines than Shae the funny whore -__-. Catelyn has as much lines as BRONN, this is how much she got downplayed. you'll also notice the 2x factor between Tyrion and Jaime, knowing that this season was Jaime's prime, so we will be lucky if Jaime talks as much as Shae next season.

My biggest issue though, and the lack of screen time for characters who aren't favouritesis of course a problem as well, but the biggest one for me is the way the characterisation of the unfavourites is all off. They don't even try to give them a chance to shine for the ones who might like those characters. And I can't with Cat having as many lines as Bronn. If Cat got little screen time, but at least the screen time she had was good and in character, I could still get on board with it. But they're shamefully biased at this point, clearly all Starks that aren't Arya don't matter, and unless you're Dany or a Lannister you might as well not being there.

This season for me has been the one that highlighted a difference between favourites and unfavourites btw, I didn't feel it was as bad in the other 2 seasons.

It's true that the Arya/Tywin scenes weren't really necessary, however I was never really a fan of the book roose/arya scenes anyway. And, at least the tywin/arya scenes were filmed when the original show writing was still fresh. Those scenes, regardless of their necessity were excellently written and I quite enjoyed them - now the book deviated scenes are trite and bogged down with cliches.

I agree. I didn't have an issue with Tywin/Arya either, but this season the deviated scenes have been a lot worse, less faithful to characterisation (and characterisation is important, because the characters make the show!), and not particularly good either. That's my biggest gripe, want to add scenes for their favourite characters, fine, but at least keep them in character, and stop the bloody cliches. Sometimes it feels like they're literally rewriting the characters rather than adapting them to a show version.

[Fragon]

rename this site ibitchaboutthrones.com

Yes there's a lot of bitching in some of these topics but don't misunderstand us ( or me at least), I still kinda enjoy the show. I'm not a book purist I enjoy some of their changes, I really enjoyed what they did with Roose (the book version would never work on TV) and their invented scene with Walder&Roose was great, I loved the opening scene and what they've done with Arya this last couple of episodes. I enjoyed Arya/Tywin too last season, it was mostly in character and very well written (the only little thing that I noticed was Tywin telling about his children's weaknesses but it worked well).

I enjoy it, because it's a really good show, but I'm having trouble calling it an adaptation of aSoIaF because aSoIaF is all about people, about these complex characters and their decisions, feelings all in this strange fantasy world. But the show is starting to miss the people part of the story because of some poor decision making, this can still go on maybe next season or season 5, but it will eventually hurt the show really bad. A lot of characters are already cheapened and simplified and not because of an budgetary problem, because of favouritism (see the number of lines list). With dialogues more like the book and screentime divided more reasonably this could turn in to a great show, I can still become great if they get their shit together next season but for this they have to understand what they've been doing wrong.

(Well I think they will succeed most of season 4 eventhough they continue their favoritism because that will be the King's Landing season, this season we spent 35% of lines there eventhough there wasn't important material so I guess we will have 70% of the screentime in KL next season - _ -.))

[teemo]

Has anyone else noticed that they're treating Varys as a "better" man than LF? Better as in both more capable, and more honorable.

LF is portrayed as an idiot who grins and makes empty threats. I don't get a sense of danger from him at all, he's so flat. And he comes out as a total villain, which he may be in the books as well, but they're overplaying that card, what with Ros and all. Varys is portrayed as much more intelligent and "innocent".

And I think that they've messed up when it comes to depicting what the game of thrones really is, they messed up the proportions and the players. By stepping away from the politics, cause we've seen nothing of that, except for Tywin saying to his children that they needed to get married and reproduce in order to protect their family name, they step away from the essence of the books, which ultimately is the game of thrones, not the dragons, nor the whores, nor Pod's skills in the sack, nor Cersei and her children.

My unsullied friends think that Tyrion, Tywin and Varys are players, and they include fan-favorite characters like Dany, who is far far away, Robb or even Cersei. They think that the game of thrones is about who talks the most, or who is more prominent and loud. They totally neglect Roose, LF, Stannis, the silent, but more dangerous players.

I agree that Varys seems a little more honorable on the show. However, I think show LF is just as much of a player in D&D's eyes, he's just pretty badly written so far.

[Broken Fox]

The favoritism was obvious since season 2 and it's my one major gripe with the show. Tyrion is perfect, Daenerys is god, Jon Snow is a dumbass (and kind of a bitch after that last scene with Ygritte...), etc. Robb/Cat's storyline should have gotten the lion's share of screentime this season. Instead we got a lot of bullshit in KL and some Theon torture scenes. And that mhysa shit...

[Cas Stark]

My biggest issue though, and the lack of screen time for characters who aren't favouritesis of course a problem as well, but the biggest one for me is the way the characterisation of the unfavourites is all off. They don't even try to give them a chance to shine for the ones who might like those characters. And I can't with Cat having as many lines as Bronn. If Cat got little screen time, but at least the screen time she had was good and in character, I could still get on board with it. But they're shamefully biased at this point, clearly all Starks that aren't Arya don't matter, and unless you're Dany or a Lannister you might as well not being there.

This season for me has been the one that highlighted a difference between favourites and unfavourites btw, I didn't feel it was as bad in the other 2 seasons.

I agree. I didn't have an issue with Tywin/Arya either, but this season the deviated scenes have been a lot worse, less faithful to characterisation (and characterisation is important, because the characters make the show!), and not particularly good either. That's my biggest gripe, want to add scenes for their favourite characters, fine, but at least keep them in character, and stop the bloody cliches. Sometimes it feels like they're literally rewriting the characters rather than adapting them to a show version.

I agree. The Tywin Arya scenes were a pleasure to watch even if hindsight they may have gotten a little too much screen time and made Tywin a little too grandfatherly, there was nothing much to object to unless you really were a "book purist".

And there have been plenty of other invented scenes that were great or good, so they can do it, which is why I don't understand why they increasingly seem not to do it.

The Stannis scenes that actually have Stannis in them are laughably short, and Carice van Houten's portrayal of her gets weirder and weirder to me. Last year, she seemed dead on. This year, her performances seem very uneven or frenetic or something. The scene in the last episode was crazy bad.

[Broken Fox]

Tywin/Arya was simply great television and storytelling, and one of the few instances where the show outdid the books. I can picture George watching those scenes and thinking "Damn, why didn't I think of that..."

[six]

The favoritism was obvious since season 2 and it's my one major gripe with the show. Tyrion is perfect, Daenerys is god, Jon Snow is a dumbass (and kind of a bitch after that last scene with Ygritte...), etc. Robb/Cat's storyline should have gotten the lion's share of screentime this season. Instead we got a lot of bullshit in KL and some Theon torture scenes. And that mhysa shit...

But it got worse, imo. Last season both Robb and Cat had a fair amount of screen time and they actually did things, Cersei wasn't a complete woobie who had lots redundant scenes aimed at melt our hearts towards her (MY CHILDREN! POOR ME!) but more of a combination between a sympathetic character and her book counterpart, Theon's screen time wasn't excessive and made sense in season 2 while this season his scenes were surplus to requirements, etc. They made favouritisms in season 2 as well, but they took it way further to the point it's now proper annoying, not just a minor gripe.

I agree. The Tywin Arya scenes were a pleasure to watch even if hindsight they may have gotten a little too much screen time and made Tywin a little too grandfatherly, there was nothing much to object to unless you really were a "book purist".

And there have been plenty of other invented scenes that were great or good, so they can do it, which is why I don't understand why they increasingly seem not to do it.

The Stannis scenes that actually have Stannis in them are laughably short, and Carice van Houten's portrayal of her gets weirder and weirder to me. Last year, she seemed dead on. This year, her performances seem very uneven or frenetic or something. The scene in the last episode was crazy bad.

Agreed, they're not even trying anymore with with the unfavourites. The Stannis/Melisandre relationship has been rewritten for the show.

[Le Cygne]

I agree. The Tywin Arya scenes were a pleasure to watch even if hindsight they may have gotten a little too much screen time and made Tywin a little too grandfatherly, there was nothing much to object to unless you really were a "book purist".

That's my objection. Too much screentime and too grandfatherly. A couple of scenes, let's indulge and enjoy the great acting/chemistry. It was just too much, and nothing came of it.

[protar]

Tywin/Arya was simply great television and storytelling, and one of the few instances where the show outdid the books. I can picture George watching those scenes and thinking "Damn, why didn't I think of that..."

Yep. "Damn, why didn't I think of that? I mean what was I thinking with plot progression and character development? Why didn't I just have every chapter be two people exchanging banter? Genius"

[JaTyAdo]

Obviously, D&D has a boner for Dany and they interpreted her as a really one-dimensional character with no complexity at all... Is it just me or does it makes you feel like D&D must be thinking 'Since ASOIAF has full of female fans because of the strong female characters, you know let's make Dany perfect.. Change Jeyne, a gentle woman to Talisa, the bratty woman who seduced the dumb king... Change Shae, the realistic whore to a whore with a golden heart... Let's forget Sansa and Catelyn 'cause we're sure as hell all fans find them boring we must not forget Dany kicking ass 'cause not only do women love it but also men have a boner for such things... Let's also give more lines for Shae and Talisa than they should actually have.. And let's not forget to EMPHASIZE THE ROMANCE OF ROBB/TALISA, JON/YGRITTE, AND SAM/GILLY 'cause women love it that way and we could let those characters forget their real purpose and think that LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS...' :ack:

I shouldn't think this way but somehow it just pisses me off 'cause it's really annoying how they always say 'The show has a LOT of strong female characters' then they gave us irritating female characters like Talisa and Shae... I mean.. C'mon, I'm a woman but they totally get on my nerves.. and I would forever choose Sansa and Catelyn over Dany.... Most IMPORTANTLY, ASOIAF readers are not Twilight lovers to enjoy such sappy love stories... I liked all those couples in the book but I was really disappointed on how the show handled them... I expected too much from Ygritte's death scene than just a cheesy line...

That's my objection. Too much screentime and too grandfatherly. A couple of scenes, let's indulge and enjoy the great acting/chemistry. It was just too much, and nothing came of it.

Yep. "Damn, why didn't I think of that? I mean what was I thinking with plot progression and character development? Why didn't I just have every chapter be two people exchanging banter? Genius"

^This!!! I am no book purist.. I totally understand all the necessary book changes like 'Jeyne to Talisa', 'Hoat to Locke' and, 'Edric to Gendry'... but why do such a thing that not only whitewash a certain character which is already fine in the book but also takes too much screentime and yields nothing at all? The scenes were great but let's be honest, it's a fanfiction.. too much time could have been taken up for more important things...

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm not sure where the idea that D&D are in love with Dany is coming from... Did any of you watch her storyline last season?!

Clearly they liked the Dracarys scene and wanted to get it right. The 'Mhysa' scene certainly glorified Daenerys, but I think that was more about providing ~hope~ following the Red Wedding. But really, if they loved Daenerys, they wouldn't have butchered her scenes from Second Sons onwards. The Mhysa scene was a racist mess, and her victory over the Yunkish was literally handed to Daario Naharis.

Tywin/Arya was simply great television and storytelling, and one of the few instances where the show outdid the books. I can picture George watching those scenes and thinking "Damn, why didn't I think of that..."

I doubt it. The scenes were quite good, but they were also repetitive and lacked character development. In fact, for Tywin at least, the scenes contradicted a lot of his characterisation.