(Book Spoilers) Theon and the reveal

['96Buck]

I guess it depends on how you read the books. I read the books that "before he learned his name"....to mean that he was tortured more "before he learned his name" because a large part of the PURPOSE of the torture was to break him and his identity.

The show made it different, the show had Ramsey torture him for the hell of it and then have Reek pop into his head as a stray thought.

In the scheme of the show it doesn't matter because Theon is Reek now, it doesn't really matter how he got there or whether it fits with his book character or not.

I agree that "before he learned his name" refers to before he was broken by torture. The sum total of it, not just the last marginal torture event immediately before he says the name for the 1st time.

The show certainly does not indicate conclusively that Ramsey had no objective. Agree he does portray TO THEON that the name was selected at random. But since everything Ramsay says to Theon is a PsyOp, that is not conclusive either.

Agree that we are where we are, now.

[Sidonie]

The show certainly does not indicate conclusively that Ramsey had no objective. Agree he does portray TO THEON that the name was selected at random. But since everything Ramsay says to Theon is a PsyOp, that is not conclusive either.

Wow, that's a good thought. Imagine how weirded out it would be for Theon as Reek to find out later on that there had been another Reek before him.

[LilJonUmber]

Yeah but you aren't really suppose to feel that sorry for Theon yet. I know for me it didn't happen really until the end of Dance which is an amazing accomplishment b/c he was the character I was wishing the harshest death on. Its really only when Theon starts actively making things happen that you start to feel for him again (or for the first time really).

I personally felt sorry for Theon all along, as I acknowledged that, deep down, it was his desire for acceptance that led to all of his poor decisions. But maybe I'm in the minority and, for most, it'll take more than seeing him tortured to make him a sympathetic figure...if they ever see him that way at all.

We'll see how they handle his redemption arc. I'm just saying that the transformation end of it didn't have the effect that I hoped it would

[Dove]

I personally felt sorry for Theon all along, as I acknowledged that, deep down, it was his desire for acceptance that led to all of his poor decisions. But maybe I'm in the minority and, for most, it'll take more than seeing him tortured to make him a sympathetic figure...if they ever see him that way at all.

This. I mean I'm not like a "poor sexy Theon you only killed those kids because you had to!!!" kind of person who excuses all his actions but it's really easy to see how he was pushed into the horrible shit he did and I found him extremely sympathetic even during ACOK. It's more like, "Theon you DUMB FUCK stop it you're better than this uuggghhh".

If you can't muster up the tiniest bit of pity for a dude after being the broken toy of a fucker like Ramsay Snow then I have to wonder what you even get out of a series like this with such a black-and-white view of everything.

I'm also a big 'ol sucker for interesting, conflicted grey characters that hugely challenge your initial impression of them, hence Jaime and Theon being two favorites.

[The Killer Snark]

I agree. I personally regarded him as a woobie-style character in ACoK because of the sheer amount of times he either shoots himself in the foot or gets hit by disastrous bad luck at every opportunity. Whenever he tries to actually act as a villain, it's usually the set up for some cringey humiliation. And his actions were frustrating more than anything else; you feel like breaking the fourth wall and throwing a shoe at him to try and get him to wake up. Anyway, as I've said, this isn't Theon as Reek yet in the series. He has no idea what the new identity entails for him, and still regards himself as Theon Greyjoy. He merely wanted Ramsay to stop. It's just the new name that's being introduced, so he'll go through more before it registers. They never had Ramsay in the second series, so they need an excuse for the name Reek, though I personally think they should bring in the fact that he is being turned into a mock of a previous servant by the same name.

[go joff go]

I personally felt sorry for Theon all along, as I acknowledged that, deep down, it was his desire for acceptance that led to all of his poor decisions. But maybe I'm in the minority and, for most, it'll take more than seeing him tortured to make him a sympathetic figure...if they ever see him that way at all.

We'll see how they handle his redemption arc. I'm just saying that the transformation end of it didn't have the effect that I hoped it would

I'd love to see what others think, but I do think you are in the minority, although that is part of the fascination of his storyline, since that line where you feel something for Theon is different for everyone. Theon doesn't have any of the characteristics that make people forgive Jaimie even though show theon is likely a better person, which I find to be fascinating paradox.

[Stannis' shadow babies]

I liked the way they did it. Contrary to what several people have said, I don't think many of the Unsullied had figured it out. Yes, there are some good, analytical and sharp viewers but most of the ones I know (people I consider to be normal as intelligence is concerned) were clueless. I don't think it had to be climatic, OHMYGOD moment either. It was more a "Now it all makes sense!" (after the explanation of what happened in Winterfell) or "Duh! How didn't I think of it!" moment for non-readers.

ETA: and the actor playing Ramsay is ridiculously good. My fav moment was 'my mother told me not to throw stones at cripples' -pause, evil eyes and smirk- 'But my father told me...aim for the head'. Great reference to Roose, making more emphasis -if possible- on his twisted nature (and where Ramsay got those things from).

[Cas Stark]

I'd love to see what others think, but I do think you are in the minority, although that is part of the fascination of his storyline, since that line where you feel something for Theon is different for everyone. Theon doesn't have any of the characteristics that make people forgive Jaimie even though show theon is likely a better person, which I find to be fascinating paradox.

I also found Theon more sympathetic overall that Jamie in the books, despite the terrible things that Theon does and the ripple effect they create, it was never his intention to harm the Starks, and he never took any joy in what he did, he's a bumbler. He still deserves to die for what he did and cannot be redeemed no matter what he does, but it was always clear everything he did he knew was wrong from the get go, but he couldn't stop himself because his character was too weak.

Jamie on the other hand, never cared or felt for the people he harmed, and despite his alleged redemption, he stil doesn't. He stil feels most bad about Jamie Lannister having squandered his life...not the people he harmed or the kid he threw out of the window or the war started over his incestuous offspring.

But, yes, I agree, this is a minority viewpoint.

[go joff go]

I liked the way they did it. Contrary to what several people have said, I don't think many of the Unsullied had figured it out. Yes, there are some good, analytical and sharp viewers but most of the ones I know (people I consider to be normal as intelligence is concerned) were clueless. I don't think it had to be climatic, OHMYGOD moment either. It was more a "Now it all makes sense!" (after the explanation of what happened in Winterfell) or "Duh! How didn't I think of it!" moment for non-readers.

I agree. I could be wrong but I get the feeling that a lot of bookreaders litmus test for if non-readers figure something out is the TWOP unsullied, and for a myriad of reasons, some we aren't even allowed to talk about, I think that is a mistake, and they are a far extreme.

[The Killer Snark]

I personally also think that Jaime's bad decisions were more disastrous, and therefore worse, than Theon's, in terms of how they ultimately affected Westeros. Balon would have waged his petty war, and Robb would still have lost his own, no matter what. The only thing that counteracts Jaime's mistakes as a character is the amount of good he did in service of the realm by killing Aerys when he did, which he was resented for, and therefore he gets off relatively lightly. I personally think that he gets off maybe too lightly, though Jaime is a character I really like.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think it will be interesting to see Ramsay interact with more characters besides Theon. Specifically his scenes with Roose, which I found to be some of the most interesting dialogue in the entire series, should be really fantastic.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I felt bad for Theon as well, even in his ACoK chapters. He never seemed like some big bad villain, Just a stupid kid who made a lot of bone headed choices because he was deeply insecure and wanted to show up his sister and impress his father. Theon's story arc is arguably the most tragic of any character.

[The Killer Snark]

I'd say that Theon and Catelyn are the two characters in the series who, on account of being intelligent characters who spend an entire book acting like idiots, are the ones singled out to suffer most out of proportion to any intended malice that was done.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Anyone seen the Arrested Westeros parodies of the scene? They're hilarious :lol:

If you can't muster up the tiniest bit of pity for a dude after being the broken toy of a fucker like Ramsay Snow then I have to wonder what you even get out of a series like this with such a black-and-white view of everything.

This x100000000000. Some of the Stark blindness in the fandom is just nauseating.

I don't buy the whole "he killed children so he must be evil". I thought it was pretty obvious that his desperation led him to commit those acts. He didn't take any joy in it, and was plagued with guilt about it. This is why I don't consider him "evil". He's still a pretty shitty person though.

TBH, I think Theon accepted the identity of Reek partly as a coping mechanism. Being Reek and distancing himself from Theon Greyjoy, in a way, relieves him from the guilt of being the Prince of Winterfell. If he's Reek and lets "Theon" die, he is in a way, set free of the remorse that's been plaguing his conscience. That's why I think it was so hard for him to give up being Reek - in a way, it was a sanctuary for him.

[LilJonUmber]

This. I mean I'm not like a "poor sexy Theon you only killed those kids because you had to!!!" kind of person who excuses all his actions but it's really easy to see how he was pushed into the horrible shit he did and I found him extremely sympathetic even during ACOK. It's more like, "Theon you DUMB FUCK stop it you're better than this uuggghhh".

If you can't muster up the tiniest bit of pity for a dude after being the broken toy of a fucker like Ramsay Snow then I have to wonder what you even get out of a series like this with such a black-and-white view of everything.

I'm also a big 'ol sucker for interesting, conflicted grey characters that hugely challenge your initial impression of them, hence Jaime and Theon being two favorites.

Yep. At the end of the day, he's just a dolt who realized and resented the fact that he was neither loved nor respected by anyone. Even his womanizing was just a means of feeling superiority over someone (anyone). While his actions were inexcusable, Theon's not a clear-cut villain motivated by cruelty. He painted himself into a corner when he decided to pledge his allegiance to the Greyjoys, and everything that followed was his vain attempt to rationalize that decision by impressing his fellow Iron Islanders.

To me, he's one of the most natural, realistic portrayals in ASOIAF, and a truly fascinating character overall.

[The Killer Snark]

Pinkie - I agree with that as well. It's pretty implicit. Subconsciously, if he thinks of himself as someone being punished for unwittingly becoming Ramsay's stoogie, it also explains his eventual willingness to immerse himself in his Stockhausen syndrome personality pretty much, especially after he hears of the death of Catelyn and Robb.

[Cas Stark]

I felt bad for Theon as well, even in his ACoK chapters. He never seemed like some big bad villain, Just a stupid kid who made a lot of bone headed choices because he was deeply insecure and wanted to show up his sister and impress his father. Theon's story arc is arguably the most tragic of any character.

I don't know about most tragic, but it's way up there on the Greek Tragedy Scale. All he really wants is love and acceptance and respect...all of which he had more of with Robb Stark than his own family....but he doesn't realize this until it's too late, that he's been chasing a BS ironborn fantasy that isn't who he is or wants to be. But the realization comes only after he betrays the one home and family he ever had, leading to their destruction. That's pretty fucking tragic, even though it was his own doing.

[buckfosto]

Judging by what the showrunners said in the Inside the Episode (talking about how they wanted to take the torture scenes to the point of pushing it a little past where most viewers would want to watch it and put them in that confused mindset that Theon was in) I think we've seen the last of the torture stuff. They've established all that and they established the name Reek. I think the next time we see him, some time will have passed and we may get that initial scene in ADWD in the dungeons with the rat. Since all of his treatment and their relationship was established this season, it allows the viewers to fill in what happened in between seasons. They can show him as a wretch and our minds will do the rest (kind of like the book). I almost wish they didn't say "Reek" this season and let the audience have that same experience of "holy crap that's Theon?!" as the reader did. I think with good makeup and shadows they could have hidden it as Alfie for a segment of him in the dungeon, muttering and then being taken to see Lord Ramsay.

I like what Killer Snark wrote about Theon just saying it to stop but not understanding the implications. I thought he was a little too in control of his faculties to be "broken" at that moment but that could have simply been a direction issue. If they had him muttering to himself, sobbing through that scene and then protesting with Theon Greyjoy meekly through tears it might have played more as he is breaking. I also think they should have had it been done with flaying, or at least the sharpening of knives and a fade to black screaming of the name.

[LilJonUmber]

...I do think you are in the minority, although that is part of the fascination of his storyline, since that line where you feel something for Theon is different for everyone.

As do I. That's fine -- it certainly does make for interesting discussion to see at which point people went from loathing Theon to pitying him.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

A few things needs to happen with Ramsay next season. They need to show his sadism towards women. Hunting women, flaying women and his general cruelty towards women. Going by this season you would think he was some sort of ladie's man. LOL not the case at all....

Then, they need to introduce the Bastard's Boys. They don't have to name them or even particularly give them much personality but we need to know that Ramsay has a small team around him that is as degenerate as he is.

Finally, they need to establish that he does NOT like to be called, let alone reminded that he is a bastard in anyway. They need to let the audience know that this is his great Achilles Heel and that any mention of it sends him into an uncontrollable rage.