(Book Spoilers) Theon and the reveal

[Miodrag]

I always got the impression from the books that a great deal of Ramsay's sadistic motivation was sexual. Far more so than Joffrey's particular sadism was and obviously as someone said in an earlier reply, Joffrey likely could have become more sexually sadistic had he lived to adulthood.

I'm curious why some here felt Ramsay's portrayal was too sexual or that the sexual overtones were some sort of homoerotic spin. I didn't think it was overdone and the obvious sick humor with the sausage was definitely Joker style gruesome and brought some much needed (if gross) laughs to the tense situation. Ramsay was like that in the books, he often had quick witty comebacks and jokes that were sick and twisted.

Compared to Renly and Loras shaving each other, it wasn't that much homoerotic, but in comparison to the books it was. And it seems Rheon and D&D wanted it that way, too. In the books, Ramsay's wedding night showed how asexual Theon is to him: Theon's is to help Ramsay's bride prepare better for Ramsay, and nothing else. That's how I took it, at least: without any sexual connotation, pure sadism. In the show, this story is still at it's early stages, though, so it's hard to tell will this become one more catastrophe or a tolerable deviation, but increased level of sexuality is there.

[Envie]

Compared to Renly and Loras shaving each other, it wasn't that much homoerotic, but in comparison to the books it was. And it seems Rheon and D&D wanted it that way, too. In the books, Ramsay's wedding night showed how asexual Theon is to him: Theon's is to help Ramsay's bride prepare better for Ramsay, and nothing else. That's how I took it, at least: without any sexual connotation, pure sadism. In the show, this story is still at it's early stages, though, so it's hard to tell will this become one more catastrophe or a tolerable deviation, but increased level of sexuality is there.

Ok I'll buy your reasoning that the show is playing up sexuality a lot more, that's obvious from many scenes not just this one. Seems they like to hit people over the head with sexual undertones that end up being overtones ie. overdone. I think most of us as book readers appreciated a more subtle hint here and there in the books (as in Renly's homosexuality) over the bashing us with it in the show. That likely seems less overdone to non book readers who wouldn't always get the subtle parts since they don't have pages of detailed dialogue to read like we did.

I don't really buy the opinion of some in this discussion that it was inappropriate or had too much homoerotic twist to it. Ramsay was a very twisted individual and by the end of the last book you're fairly convinced that nothing is off the table for him in the sadism department. Ramsay's actor admitted fully he played up a somewhat sexual tone to the scene in an interview someone quoted. He did that to further torment Theon, not because he's got any real desire to be sexual with Theon. Anyone who thought Ramsay was going to start kissing him or be homosexual with him really missed the point. It was just more torture to a man whose been reduced to nothing and had his manhood taken away. All dignity is gone and there's nothing left but mental humiliation. That's why he was playing up the sexuality tones and the sausage jokes. One extreme and then another.

[The Killer Snark]

It's my opinion that there was some form of implied homoeroticism regarding Ramsay and the first Reek, so there was probably some initially re: Theon, though it would have went one way. By the wedding, the latter has been so physically altered that he'd be no-one's sexual object, but I don't find the implication in the series (though it isn't actually that strong anyway) to be out of keeping with the books.

[Sidonie]

I don't really buy the opinion of some in this discussion that it was inappropriate or had too much homoerotic twist to it. Ramsay was a very twisted individual and by the end of the last book you're fairly convinced that nothing is off the table for him in the sadism department. Ramsay's actor admitted fully he played up a somewhat sexual tone to the scene in an interview someone quoted. He did that to further torment Theon, not because he's got any real desire to be sexual with Theon. Anyone who thought Ramsay was going to start kissing him or be homosexual with him really missed the point. It was just more torture to a man whose been reduced to nothing and had his manhood taken away. All dignity is gone and there's nothing left but mental humiliation. That's why he was playing up the sexuality tones and the sausage jokes. One extreme and then another.

Hmm. Not sure if I buy this.

In the books there is definitely an odd emotional and sexual element to their relationship.

"Reek belongs to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek" comes to mind.

[Miodrag]

Ownership doesn't have to be sexual, and Ramsay owning Reek never did strike me as one. In fact, it looks even darker without sexual connotation. "Nobody but me is allowed to torment him, and he mustn't serve anyone other than me" - that's what I read from "Reek belong to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek".

[Sidonie]

Ownership doesn't have to be sexual, and Ramsay owning Reek never did strike me as one. In fact, it looks even darker without sexual connotation. "Nobody but me is allowed to torment him, and he mustn't serve anyone other than me" - that's what I read from "Reek belong to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek".

If the quote was just "Reek belongs to Ramsay" I could see that.

But the addition of "Ramsay belongs to Reek" makes it sound like some type of romantic/sexual relationship.

[Sam with Hooters]

The Old Gods Had Known Him wrote:

Anyway, that's just how I personally would have liked to see that shit go down. Even though we all know lots of stuff went before episode 10, it still looked like the guy took 2 punches and became Reek far too easily. The Reekness should have been introduced earlier.

Hereth ends my first post. First of many perchance.

To blatantly steal from Comic Book Guy, Best. First. Post. EVER! On a tangentially-related note, players of "Game of Thrones Ascent" can now buy a "Greyjoy Box." No clue whether Toby's Theon's favorite toy is included.

[Dove]

There might be some weird sexual undercurrent there but the use of the word "romantic" in reference to a relationship like Ramsay and Theon's makes me want to leak blood from my eyes (that may or may not be internet hyperbole y'all!!)

Anyone who sees it as a basic sexual/romantic sort of thing is probably either missing the point entirely, or reading it at the simplest possible level.

Ramsay just isn't a sexual creature except where it pertains to his sadism, there's no "attraction" in the traditional sense to Theon or any of those girls except where it concerns inflicting pain. His psychology resembles a lot of real world serial rapists/murderers in that lack of sexual instinct except to extreme violence.

edit:

VVV NotYourSir really hit the nail on the head there. Theon had power over him and was everything Ramsay wasn't but wanted to be to boot; i.e. trueborn, handsome, etc. When someone like Ramsay seems someone higher than them, they want to bring them down, so he broke him. It's not some ~~super-speshul love at first sight~~ shit, it's an issue of sadism, entitlement, and a "repayment" of Ramsay's initial humilation.

[Miodrag]

What I found underwhelming with TV Ramsay is the lack of range and scale. He seems able to torture only Theon and only one way (or some variation of it).

And yeah, Theon's escape that Ramsay staged is an exception to that. But, that whole sequence was odd for another reason (though the chase was probably the best filmed action scene in the entire series). It looked like too much logistics in the first place. It would more suit book Roose, who, as Lady Dustin explained, likes to play with people. Book Ramsay is his father writ stupider: he also likes to play cruelly with people, but he doesn't have the patience nor intelligence nor dedication nor discipline to do that as thoroughly as his father would. That's why Ramsay has no breaks in any of his relations, be it with his servants or with high lords or kings themselves. He's way more explicit than Roose (which is why I don't think there's anything sexual going on toward Theon: it would've been evidenced by now), but he has none of Roose's style. Roose is capable of having a conversation, even a complex one (with Jaime in Harrenhal), while Ramsay is capable only for mayhem.

At the same time, that's why Ramsay is so dangerous when in power. He's cunning when in danger, as seen in ACOK, but when he's in power, any power at all, everyone else is in peril. Even Roose: he says that he expects Ramsay to kill him some day, if I remember correctly. And Ramsay accomplishes all that without trying it too hard. If he can't hurt it immediately, he's bored with it; but, he'll in no time find someone else to make him/her life miserable. The range and scale of his evilness come from there. Like, he'd never waste as much time on Theon as TV Ramsay does, because there are other people to torment. The only reason he is bothering with Theon at all, is because Theon is the last person who had life/death control over him. That's why Theon, in Ramsay's eyes, has to suffer to no end. And Theon does suffer, but without too much tiring logistics and preparations. I mean, in the first Reek chapter, it's Frey boys who are bringing Theon out of a dungeon. Like, everyone is welcomed to torture this guy some more. It's that easy. But in the end, he's all mine.

TV Ramsay looks like taking some different direction. What direction is that going to be exactly, we still haven't seen, because they were playing the mystery card for so long, but I suspect it's not going to be what I just described. And I don't think that what they'll come up with is going to be so impressionable as what's seen in ADWD.

[The Killer Snark]

I actually agree with Hunt there. I saw a bizarre piece of fan art recently showing a handsome young Ramsay and Theon enjoying a romantic kiss. Obviously not a Theon fan, or mere irony, or wishful thinking, who knows?

[Khalessi]

I actually agree with Hunt there. I saw a bizarre piece of fan art recently showing a handsome young Ramsay and Theon enjoying a romantic kiss. Obviously not a Theon fan, or mere irony, or wishful thinking, who knows?

Seriously? I am worried about anyone, who would ship them....

[Sniraga]

Reek wouldn't be believable at all if they'd have done that. In the books, GRRM could get away with it thanks to Reek's inner monologue. Since the show can't do it that way, showing Ramsey breaking Theon was the only thing they could do. And personally, I love the Theon/Reek arc in the books and it would have been a shame to not know the severity of Theon's suffering in the show. later on, when Rook is utterly broken and little more than Ramsey's creature, there will be no questions as to why. And also, knowing what he went through will make him escaping with Jeyne that much better.

Yeah, well, obviously I'm not a screenwriter, but I thought that perhaps they could transform some parts of Reek's inner monologue into Reek talking to himself all Gollum-like :wacko: In this case it might work better than in some other instances, Reek's a broken character and so on...

In that way the details of his suffering would remain somewhat unclear, yes, but it could work, especially as many viewers are quite capable of imagining horrendous stuff on their own (and perhaps even more horrendous).

But maybe you're right and showing the breaking of Theon was the only way, but nevertheless I don't think it was good storytelling. A part of my dissing stems probably from a fact that I have two Unsullied friends who both detested Theon's storyline this season. I had hoped that they would end up feeling pity for him - like I did in ADWD - but now they dislike his character even more, because they feel that Theon has evolved from disgusting to disgusting and boring. There was too much of (seemingly) pointless torture scenes without proper payoff.

[Khalessi]

Personally, I am not sure Theon accepted the name Reek yet. At least not in the same way he had by the time we met him in ADWD. He said it was his name, but it seemed more just to stop Ramsay from hurting him anymore. I still think internally he still sees himself as Theon, and I don't think he is the same broken person we met at ADWD yet. So for the people who are complaining that he just became Reek after 2 punches. I think there will be more to it than that, it is one thing to just call youself a name to avoid more torture it is a different thing enitirely to see yourself as that person.

[Pinkie Baelish]

For the people saying Theon broke too quickly, have you even been watching what's happened to him this season? Let's recall:

-he's been beaten repeatedly

-had pins stuck under his nails

-had his ankle crushed

-been given the hope of escaping, only to be captured and nearly raped

-finally trusts someone and confides in him, only for that person to betray him

-led to believe that his family has completely deserted him

-had his finger flayed until he begs for it to be cut off

-been CASTRATED. That's the big one, especially since he prided himself on his cock

-being beaten until he adopts the name of "Reek"

It doesn't seem unnatural at all that Theon should break.

[PhoenixFlame]

I'd never apply the term "romantic" to anything Ramsay-related, but there was depraved sexual stuff going on between them in the the books. Ramsay rides back, kisses Reek, and whispers "softly as lover" something or other, and Reek thinks his breath smells sweet. Ramsay hangs out and chats while Theon's taking a bath. Theon later refers to "shameful" stuff he and Jeyne are forced to do in Ramsay's bedroom. This is not some kind of fetishized couple or anything like that, ew, but even Roose seemed bewildered at how close Ramsay and the first Reek were. Even though Ramsay was responsible for his death, there seemed to be a sick, perhaps somewhat codependent companionship. Roose says Ramsay's mother was the one who filled his head with entitlement to the Dreadfort, but I highly doubt she told him "nobles rape women in the woods, you're basically a lord so idk..." While a big part of his feelings toward Theon are rage at him being nobleborn (but so delightfully breakable), he does try to recreate "his" Reek to some extent.

Yeah, well, obviously I'm not a screenwriter, but I thought that perhaps they could transform some parts of Reek's inner monologue into Reek talking to himself all Gollum-like :wacko: In this case it might work better than in some other instances, Reek's a broken character and so on...

I think that might work in a film, where they have to get stuff across very quickly, but in a TV show when the character has disappeared for a long time, I don't think it would be believable. You'd have others saying it was a cop-out, that you had no reason to buy Theon's devolvement. It's why a lot of people were irritated we didn't see Sansa's immediate reaction to Tyrion's wedding announcement. I don't think Gollum-like mumblings would come across very well. There's a reason Gollum is a unique character. It would also have people thinking Theon's gone totally nuts, which he hasn't--he's traumatized and broken, but he's not mad.

The main problem was the mystery element--it had people thinking it was going to be "DUN DUN DUN!" when it wasn't. I think careful writing could have kept Roose from looking too treacherous. Viewers could have the false impression he doesn't know how much Ramsay's torturing him, whatever.

The idea of the castration scene was ok but the execution was poor...yeah, I get that it was supposed to make people feel uncomfortable, but it was pretty dumb. They could've conveyed the same idea in a way that didn't resemble a porn film. Plus, Ramsay having women helping him out was weird...the writing could have saved it if the girls looked scared once Ramay walked in, but nope.

That said, I loved the horse chase scene. It was perfect, from "you little bastard," to Theon scrambling away like he's having a knee-jerk "run!" reaction...only to trust the guy again. I really liked Ramsay's finger game...yes it was disturbing, but the acting from Iwan and Alfie was amazing, and it was so WTF. I think that would have been the episode to reveal his identity, and started to build why Ramsay detests him so much.

[Khalessi]

Ramsay rides back, kisses Reek, and whispers "softly as lover" something or other, and Reek thinks his breath smells sweet.

Wow. I don't remember any of that.

[Cas Stark]

It's a subtle difference, but I saw a sexual element in the book but not a sexual attraction on Ramsey's part. Ramsey is a sexual sadist, but his primary target are women. He is as someone else said, in all aspects, a cruder, stupider version of his father. He re-enacts the rape of his mother, only in spectacularly lavish cruelty, he kills, flays and tortures people, like his father, but he does it without any real reason, its the difference between the Mountain, a mad dog, and Tywin Lannister, the ruthless prick who holds the leash of the mad dog. Ramsey is all id. His father keeps that id under tight control at all times.

So, my own interpretation is that the homoerotic vibe that Iwan has added doesn't fit.

Ramsey sexually tortured Theon because he hated everything Theon represented: wealth, power, privilege, physical attactiveness, being a trueborn son--Theon was everything that Ramsey wasn't, never was and never would be and so he destroyed him, in all aspects...there was no attraction there, despite the nature of the torture being sexual.

If that makes sense to people.

[I'll pay the iron price]

The idea of the castration scene was ok but the execution was poor...yeah, I get that it was supposed to make people feel uncomfortable, but it was pretty dumb. They could've conveyed the same idea in a way that didn't resemble a porn film. Plus, Ramsay having women helping him out was weird...the writing could have saved it if the girls looked scared once Ramay walked in, but nope.

Might have worked better if Ramsay had ordered the girls to do it!

[Stone Cold Bastard]

I'd never apply the term "romantic" to anything Ramsay-related, but there was depraved sexual stuff going on between them in the the books. Ramsay rides back, kisses Reek, and whispers "softly as lover" something or other, and Reek thinks his breath smells sweet. Ramsay hangs out and chats while Theon's taking a bath. Theon later refers to "shameful" stuff he and Jeyne are forced to do in Ramsay's bedroom. This is not some kind of fetishized couple or anything like that, ew, but even Roose seemed bewildered at how close Ramsay and the first Reek were. Even though Ramsay was responsible for his death, there seemed to be a sick, perhaps somewhat codependent companionship. Roose says Ramsay's mother was the one who filled his head with entitlement to the Dreadfort, but I highly doubt she told him "nobles rape women in the woods, you're basically a lord so idk..." While a big part of his feelings toward Theon are rage at him being nobleborn (but so delightfully breakable), he does try to recreate "his" Reek to some extent.

I suspect Ramsay might be bisexual and he reminds me of prisoners and violent criminals who engage in sexual activity and sexually abuse and assault other prisoners.

[Jamie Lannister]

Wow. I don't remember any of that.

I think I repressed it too, but it happens.