Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[DaarioKnowsBest]

But how she wanted skip his claim? Did she think that Viserys would be killed or he would just step aside?

i think she knew no way in hell Vis was ever going to be in a position for his claim to be taken seriously by anybody, only way she would get close to the IT is through her own claim because she has the talent

[Morienthar]

i think she knew no way in hell Vis was ever going to be in a position for his claim to be taken seriously by anybody, only way she would get close to the IT is through her own claim because she has the talent

What Talent,She's been riding on Luck,People around her and sometimes cruelty.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

What Talent,She's been riding on Luck,People around her and sometimes cruelty.

really, what luck?

what are these people around her that she is riding doing, and why are they even with her?

[SeanF]

But how she wanted skip his claim? Did she think that Viserys would be killed or he would just step aside?

I think she realizes he won't survive.

Plenty of people in Westeros will see her as a kinslayer, which will be another obstacle to her.

[Nictarion]

i like her because i see her in between the two extremes of Ned and Tywin. she has sense of honor and compassion(Ned) but also willing to do something dirty to get a point across(Tywin).I see her as a moderate mix of those two guys, not extreme like they were.

I completely agree. She has the right mix of compassion and a good heart, but can also be quite cruel and tough on her enemies.

[Morienthar]

really, what luck?

what are these people around her that she is riding doing, and why are they even with her?

The Dragons for one were her lucky break without them she would have ended up in DoshKhaleen.

The People around her(Like Barristan and Jorah) did most of the Planning in her "Battles" and Her "Sieges" Jorah was with her first as a Spy who came to fall for her,Barristan is just trying to redeem his past oath switching by putting a Targ on the Throne again.(Oh he's also pissed at Joff as Jorah was at Ned)

The Only part where she used a bit of Brains was in Astapor when she cheated the Masters.

[Nictarion]

The Dragons for one were her lucky break without them she would have ended up in DoshKhaleen.

The People around her(Like Barristan and Jorah) did most of the Planning in her "Battles" and Her "Sieges" Jorah was with her first as a Spy who came to fall for her,Barristan is just trying to redeem his past oath switching by putting a Targ on the Throne again.(Oh he's also pissed at Joff as Jorah was at Ned)

The Only part where she used a bit of Brains was in Astapor when she cheated the Masters.

She earned her dragons. It was her idea to put them, and herself into the pyre. And as far as Jorah and Barristan planing for her, that's what generals do. The ruler doesn't make all the plans themselves.

[Morienthar]

She earned her dragons. It was her idea to put them, and herself into the pyre. And as far as Jorah and Barristan planing for her, that's what generals do. The ruler doesn't make all the plans themselves.

My question was What Talent does she have that is needed to rule,The answer is quite obviously nothing.She's more inept at it than Bob was(Who could at least win his own battles).

She wasn't really sure it would work,that is how it seems in the Book so she was Lucky that it worked,She took a risk and it paid off with the Dragon Eggs,

[Nictarion]

My question was What Talent does she have that is needed to rule,The answer is quite obviously nothing.She's more inept at it than Bob was(Who could at least win his own battles).

She wasn't really sure it would work,that is how it seems in the Book so she was Lucky that it worked,She took a risk and it paid off with the Dragon Eggs,

Her talent to rule comes from being, very inspirational, smart, compassionate, and ruthless towards her enemies.

[Morienthar]

Her talent to rule comes from being, very inspirational, smart, compassionate, and ruthless towards her enemies.

Inspirational and Smart??

I'll even give you Inspirational But Smart and Dany aren't two things that have seemed to mix,Cersei is smarter and that's saying something.

[Nictarion]

Inspirational and Smart??

I'll even give you Inspirational But Smart and Dany aren't two things that have seemed to mix,Cersei is smarter and that's saying something.

Absolutely untrue. Cersei wouldn't have lasted a day with the Dothraki, ability to adapt is a sign of intelligence, Dany also speaks several different languages, another sign.

[mindchap]

Her talent to rule comes from being, very inspirational, smart, compassionate, and ruthless towards her enemies.

Her people truly believe in her and love her, that's more than can be said for anyone else in the main character pool.

[Morienthar]

Absolutely untrue. Cersei wouldn't have lasted a day with the Dothraki, ability to adapt is a sign of intelligence, Dany also speaks several different languages, another sign.

She never did adapt the Dothraki lifestyle though she had her hand maids and Jorah if anything she tried to change them and failed which in the end resulted in the dissolution of Drogo's Khalasar.

Learning new languages isn't a particularly hard thing,It really depends on the place you are brought up.

[Nictarion]

She never did adapt the Dothraki lifestyle though she had her hand maids and Jorah if anything she tried to change them and failed which in the end resulted in the dissolution of Drogo's Khalasar.

Learning new languages isn't a particularly hard thing,It really depends on the place you are brought up.

You can not be unintelligent and speak 3 languages. And she did adapt to the Dothraki culture. She dressed like them , rode with them, spoke their language, practiced their customs (eating the horse heart), sounds like adapting to her surrounding to me.

[Mad Monkey]

Daenerys acculturated well to the Dothraki. I think the reason why she didn't do so with Meereen is because she viewed the Ghiscari with contempt. She was willing to eat a horse's heart for Khal Drogo but she could barely stand to wear a tokar. That doesn't really make her stupid and it's a little over-the-top to compare her to Cersei.

Dany stagnated and floundered in a foreign, hostile climate; Cersei crashed and burned in her own home territory, in a castle that she has run for decades, while surrounded by people who were currently her allies. Dany's struggles were because she angered the Meereenese; Cersei's struggles were because she was angry at her allies and wanted to annihilate them all before they had even finished securing her throne for her. Dany had to come up with a plan to win over the Meereenese and put down an insurgency; Cersei would have been fine if she had just done and said nothing to anyone.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

So how do you read this then:

she condemned him to his death. Actively refused to step in, then referred to him as the man who had been her brother.

After this she takes off EXACTLY where Viserys left off. She killed Viserys for the throne. That much is for certain.

Viserys killed himself I don't know why ppl keep giving Dany this power over drogo or his ppl, this is how they do things and anyone who says different is weak. This isn't cercei telling rob not to do something, these are Dothraki they rule with strength Dany would have killed herself if she tried to protect him and for what the man who was cruel to her all her life? And she wasn't even thinking now she gets the throne instead, she always wanted to go home like viserys that's why they married into drago to get his army to go home, what she's suddenly decide she doesn't want to go home because viserys is dead?

[Belisarius09]

First off 3. came from 1. just as much as it did from Viserys.

2. you criticize her for not harming children then 6. you criticize her for doing it.

4. There is no where in five books where Dany displays any signs of insanity.

5. You say in 2. she's made to look to weak and powerless, but criticize her showing power

6. see 2.

7. Slavery is a horrific act so it doesn't matter which ones she punishes so long as it's getting rid of them.

points 2 and 6 are not contradictory. You're perceiving them that way. Allow me to clarify.

2. She takes children as hostages, and it is debated whether or not she should kill some of these hostages to punish the sons of the Harpy. I am not being critical of Dany not killing the kids. I'm being critical of Dany taking the child hostages in the first place. She was called on her bluff, and when she didn't make good on her threats (thank goodness) it showed how shallow her threats were and how desperate and powerless she is. It was a real sign of weakness and it showed to her enemies that there was nothing stopping them. Thus things became worse because they no longer had to worry about harm coming to the hostages. Speak softly and carry a big stick, don't speak loudly and come empty handed.

6. Torturing the wineseller's daughters.... I think this speaks for itself. But you see how its different from pt. 2? Pt. 2 was about bluffing poorly. Pt. 6 is simply spelling out that torturing innocents is a bad thing.

Pt. 5, again this is not about showing power, it is very separate and distinct from pt. 2. Crucyfying people, is cruel and unusual punishment. It's injustice. Dany is attempting to bring justice to a harsh world, but she then commits such an injustice as this. If you want to punish a guilty party then do it like the Starks, quick and painless. I cannot condone torture and crucification no matter how heinous one's crimes. Thats not justice. Thats some form of twisted revenge. Therefore, a good criticism of Dany.

[Belisarius09]

h

Exactly what evidence has Daenerys received that Ned Stark did not help the Usurper Robert Baratheon overthrow her father? Seriously, what else is she supposed to think? That the Starks were hardcore Targ loyalists?

If Dany is a bad guy for not killing her child hostages, how is she also a bad guy for torturing the wineseller and his children? She at least has probable cause to think that the wineseller was involved in something shady; she knows that the children are innocent. Either harming children and over-the-top brutality is OK or it isn't; I lean towards "isn't".

Thats not what I said. Please see the above post for clarification.

[SeanF]

Her talent to rule comes from being, very inspirational, smart, compassionate, and ruthless towards her enemies.

I'd say rather that she's either very cruel to her enemies, or she tries to appease them. That's not a combination that works well.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I think she realizes he won't survive.

I don't think that thought ever occurred to her. For 13 of her 14 years she'd been told, over and over again, how Viserys was the Rightful King, about how his place was accross the sea, about how his people yearn for his return. The moment when she finally tells Jorah "he wouldn't be a very good king" and "he will never be king, he could not lead an army, even if my husband would give him one," were key moments for her, because she'd never even dared to THINK those thoughts before.

She was not in a place, mentally or psychologically, to think that he might die.

Plenty of people in Westeros will see her as a kinslayer, which will be another obstacle to her.

I agree, but it will be an untrue and unfair accusation. I remember Viserys beating the crap out of her at least twice, once while throwing gifts she was so proud of back in her face, and still she moved to protect him from Drogo's bloodriders.

He had to threaten her unborn child before she really abandoned him to his fate. She couldn't have saved him after he'd drawn steel (Dothaki law is very clear on this), but after his speech about ripping her child from her womb, she realized she didn't want to. That was the line in the sand that not even her brother could cross.