Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[Sphinx The Riddle]

some y'all some sad mofos to get defensive and mad for other people having opinions... what ever happen to some friendly debating?

[Nictarion]

You're not gonna use that in whenever this kind of thread props up again are you??

Nope. I don't consider her a kinslayer. Viserys committed suicide.

[mindchap]

Nope. I don't consider her a kinslayer. Viserys committed suicide.

I'm curious about something, this happens after Jorah decides to help her doesn't it? If so then how would anyone know the specifics of it in Westeros?

[Nictarion]

I'm curious about something, this happens after Jorah decides to help her doesn't it? If so then how would anyone know the specifics of it in Westeros?

Good question?

[mindchap]

Good question?

I mean the Dothraki don't seem like the gossipy type and they're the only ones present, besides Dany and Jorah.

[SeanF]

I'm curious about something, this happens after Jorah decides to help her doesn't it? If so then how would anyone know the specifics of it in Westeros?

A version of the story has got back to Doran, either via Illyrio, or an agent in Essos. Vase Dothrak was also full of traders when it happened, and it was probably the talk of the city.

Dany is not a kinslayer, but her enemies can portray her as one quite plausibly.

[mindchap]

A version of the story has got back to Doran, either via Illyrio, or an agent in Essos. Vase Dothrak was also full of traders when it happened, and it was probably the talk of the city.

Dany is not a kinslayer, but her enemies can portray her as one quite plausibly.

I don't think she is either but this is going to bug me because she mentions in detail that throughout the hall there's nothing but "black eyes and copper skins". I guess maybe some of the Dothraki are more chatty than others.

edit: Nevermind just saw where she mentions her handmaidens are there as well.

[SeanF]

I imagine the Dothraki would have been laughing about it for days, and those who were friendly with foreign merchants would surely have told them.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Jorah said he sent the last report on her from Quarth. So, it's probably him that spread the story.

[MDT]

I'm curious about something, this happens after Jorah decides to help her doesn't it? If so then how would anyone know the specifics of it in Westeros?

Jorah sent his last report from Quarth, which was the second reason beside his involvement in the IT's assasination attempts on her and her unborn child he was banished for.

Edit: I know this isn't a popular interpretation, but when I read the book I actually thought she showed mercy in not killing him ...

[Mad Monkey]

Jorah sent his last report from Quarth, which was the second reason beside his involvement in the IT's assasination attempts on her and her unborn child he was banished for.

Edit: I know this isn't a popular interpretation, but when I read the book I actually thought she showed mercy in not killing him ...

There are people who think that Dany would have been more merciful to kill him instead?

[SeanF]

Jorah sent his last report from Quarth, which was the second reason beside his involvement in the IT's assasination attempts on her and her unborn child he was banished for.

Edit: I know this isn't a popular interpretation, but when I read the book I actually thought she showed mercy in not killing him ...

I find it odd that people think Dany should just shrug off the fact that he was informing on her. Who would do so in real life? In any case, Dany was prepared to forgive him, had he not been so truculent.

[MDT]

There are people who think that Dany would have been more merciful to kill him instead?

And I'm obviously not one of them.

But yeah, let's kill every destitute guy with a heartbreak, because it's just better for him, seriously ...

[Mad Monkey]

Then again there are people who think that Hodor is Rickon's real father and that Ned Stark is possessing Ilyn Payne.

[MDT]

I find it odd that people think Dany should just shrug off the fact that he was informing on her. Who would do so in real life? In any case, Dany was prepared to forgive him, had he not been so truculent.

Yes, I mean he had all the time in the Red Waste to tell her the truth and I'm sure she would have overcome it, but sending a report from Quarth imo just nailed the coffin.

[Isalie]

I don't think she is either but this is going to bug me because she mentions in detail that throughout the hall there's nothing but "black eyes and copper skins". I guess maybe some of the Dothraki are more chatty than others.

edit: Nevermind just saw where she mentions her handmaidens are there as well.

Hihi, yes, the strong, silent, warrios would never speak of what happened in the tent. If only those chatty handmaidens hadn't been there...

[Lady Nastja]

I made a thread some time back saying that I hope Danaerys never goes to Westeros. Some people misconstrued it as anti-Dany, but it was just the opposite. I was mostly anti-Dany for most of the series, but became very pro-Dany at the end of SoS, and throughout DwD. For me, her decision to stay in Mereen is what very much redeemed her.

I never liked that she wanted to go take the Iron Throne in Westeros. It was an idea instilled by Viserys, and based on the stupid archaic notion that rulership should be based on bloodline. Let's not forget that tens of thousands of innocents would have to die in order for her to fulfil that endeavour. I very much like that her mission to end slavery is one born of her own desire, based on the fact that she was (essentially) a slave most of her life. After realizing the horrible state of Astapor after she left, she learned that you can't just abolish slavery and leave a city to its own devices, expecting it to flourish with your decree. You have to babysit it and help enforce a new slave-free infrastructure. And it would probably require your life devotion.

I very much like Danaerys for taking her own cause over the one Viserys instilled. I viewed her desire to stay in Mereen as the most honourable decision she made in the entire series. I hope that eventually she completely abandons the desire to rule in Westeros in favour of helping cities build a slave-free infrastructure. In fact, if she ends up deciding to take the throne, it will completely crap on the character development she has undertaken, and I can see no narrative reason for such a thing.

I must respectfully disagree with most of what you have said. Yes, the taking of Iron Throne was an idea instilled by Viserys but that does not mean that Dany would not be a good Queen, nor would it "crap" on her character development since I think that it is, in essence, what Dany's arc and development has been building up to.

You have a good point though, and I would be all for Dany being the founder of an Essosi Slave-Free Empire but I do see her sitting the Iron Throne, or at least coming to Westeros. There are multiple cases of foreshadowing, and were she to not come to Westeros at all would be a poor plot move. You also have the moment of self-realisation at the end of ADWD, which has put Dany in a position that I believe will have her heading to Westeros soon enough.

Also, why send her Barristan the Bold, Marwyn, Victarion (with a large number of ships) and Tyrion (who, like Victarion, is a POV character and whose story arc is clearly building up to something) merely to stay in Essos? No, Dany’s going to Westeros one way or another.

First of all, I don't think you've shown your work here to conclude that every single one of the characters in the series is at some point hypocritical.

Secondly, I don't understand why, in a topic discussing Daenerys' good and bad qualities, inevitably when a bad quality is brought up, people have to bring up other characters having bad qualities too. The reason we're discussing Daenerys and not other characters is because this is a bloody 'discuss Daenerys' topic.

As the poster of this topic, :agree:

I think its pretty admirable you're standing up for your favourite character OP, and a defence thread isn't a massive issue for me, E-Ro did Stannis defence all the time (even once trying to portray him as a feminist) and everyone loved him for it so that isn't an issue.

Gods know I'll defend the Starks and Jon Snow against all attackers so I understand where you are coming from. However, I dont agree with you.

I see Dany, in many cases, as ignoring justice in favour of vengeance, often in ways that aren't even justified by their results. To use an example (and I know Dany Stans are tired of it, but as a Stark Stan, I'm sick of people saying Ned and Robb were incompetent morons, just as Stannis Stans are sick of people calling him a heartless murdering power hungry monster, sooo deal with it, we all have to) take the crucifixion of 163 Masters in Meereen.

This acheived nothing. She didnt know whether or not they were the people responsible for crucifying 163 children. She crucified them anyway and only served to turn the rest of the nobles against her. If she was killing them because of the children, she either missed her intended targets or killed people who were innocent of the crime, and if she was killing them due to her moral objection due to them being slavers, then she should have killed the lot of them. Instead, she tries a halfway option, that helps no-one.

She isnt honourable, and relatively just and consistent, like Ned, and likewise she isnt brutal and pragmatic like Tywin. This is my problem with her, because she doesnt know what it is she wants to be, and she is using an entire city as an experiment to try and figure it out. Because of these two competing theories of rule within her, it leads to compassionate acts like the side she shows with Missandei, her remorse over Hazzea and the attempted freeing of slaves juxtaposed to the violence of massacaring the entire free Astaporian population over 12 and the torture of a wineseller's daughters in front of him.

She needs to figure out what kind of ruler she wants to be quickly, because although her intentions are ultimately noble, thousands of people are dying because of them, and her lack of ability to implement her vision, if, indeed, she has one.

Also, to those saying people who dont like hypocrisy shouldnt read ASOIAF, back off. Just because someone thinks Dany is a hypocrite doesnt make the entire series worthless, you can still enjoy reading about her story while thinking she's a giant hypocrite, its not like the two are mutually exclusive.

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, IMO Dany has now figured out what kind of a ruler she wants to be. At the end of aDwD, she has reached a point of self-realisation and discovery. She now sees that she has erred and has learned from her mistakes, and sees that Meereen will never be her city. She sees that she needs to change as a ruler and that Westeros is where she needs to go. Lest we forget,

“Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, and what you were made to be. Remember your words. ”

“Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.”

Yes it would! Dany does have to do something incredibly badass and unscrupulous to win me back in her favor. Just as long as she leaves my Starks and Davos alone!

She can burn Tyrion, Jaime and the entire Tyrell family for all I care, but I want the Starks, Davos and, of course Edmure, to end up in a good way :D

:agree: However little she knows about them now, once Dany arrives in Westeros I'm sure that she will learn that they are pretty much the good guys in all of this.

we've never seen any kings rule when he first came into his throne, even robert after only 14 years is said to be a terrible king even with a good hand, stabble kingdom. Dany made mistakes but she has all the good qualities a ruler should have kindness, compasion and someone who cares and fights for the common ppl, the same things varys is trying to teach Aegon. I dont think less than a year in meereen is an example that she'll be a terrible queen.

I could not agree more!

Really pleased to read the original post. After lurking around the forums I was really surprised by the volume of Dany hate (or at very least the amount of posters who think she is a vicious, mad, self-obsessed butcher with no competency whatsoever). I get the frustration that she chose to stay in Mereen because as readers we've been used to her being a character that is always on the move (Pentos to Dothraki sea, to Vaes Dothrak, to Quarth, to Slaver's Bay) and she should hurry up and get to Westeros. But her reasons for staying in Mereen are clear -- she is there to learn to rule not just conquer. She has proven herself at leading an army and building loyalty but this makes her similar to Robert Baratheon -- great at war but sucky at the Game of Thrones. After all the destruction she has caused in Slaver's Bay (without any forethought to how she would leave the ransacked cities) she is right to realise that after making so much change she needs to see her changes through. As a 16 year old her ideals of freeing slaves are noble but she has lacked the maturity and advice of councillors that understand politics (Jorah and Barristan are fine advisors in terms of battle and Westeros but are no small council) so she hasn't up till ADWD realised her folly (which is why I think Tyrion will be such a boon to her). I would have liked to see her take a more prominent role in managing the affairs of Mereen and taken cues from her time with the Dothraki (learn their customs, follow their customs, instigate changes one step at a time) but this is a young girl who is frustrated at her mistakes, feels frustrated at her inability to sort the city out, feels frustrated that she has lost control over her dragons. She fixates on "look back to move forward" because she is looking for a way to fix the mess she has gotten herself in. All through ADWD she came across to me as unhappy. She doesn't want to be in that city where people hate her anymore than the readership does, but to develop and see things right she puts herself through this. This in my eyes is a selfless act. She could easily move her troops on to Westeros and abandon Slaver's Bay to the hot mess she left it in, but she chooses to stay. Her departure with Drogon at the end iof ADWD is not intentional and it will be intresting to see in TWOW whether she remains concerned for the fate of Mereen and keeps her responsibilities to the city and her people at the forefront of her mind. She has her escape and it'd be easy for her at this point to run away from her problems but based on the Dany seen develop in the books, her sense of responsibility will win through.

On the flip side, I had always picked up on the constant stream of titles she enjoyed using, however, until the S3 AGOT finale I hadn't really seen the "messiah" complex she has been labelled with here on the forums. Am enjoying re-reading ACOK at the moment and will focus more on this messiah-complex and the hints of Targaryen madness that readers here often focus on. I wonder whether by bearing these flaws in my mind whether my opinion on Dany will change more on re-reading ADWD.

Yes, I have to agree with you on every count. Dany is one of my favourite character (Arya, Jon and Tyrion and Stannis being my others) and I have enjoyed her POVs and I was rather surprised to find so much disdain for her on the forums. True, I have found a few Dany fans but fewer then I had initially expected.

I also agree with you on Dany staying in Westeros. It was the right thing to do, mayhaps not for the reader, but definitely for her. She needed to try to learn before it was too late, before she became, as you have said, a Robert Baratheon type of ruler, "Great at war but sucky at the Game of Thrones." To develop her character, and to do things properly and justly, she must stay in Meereen and attempt to right her wrongs, which really is a selfless act..

I too think that Tyrion will be of a huge help to her. He will teach her how to play the game more accurately, and on their journey to Westeros no doubt tell her of all the Great Houses, their lords and ladies and whom she should ally herself with etc.

Finally, thank you for your post. It was a refreshing take, and very interesting.

C'mon, she's hardly the only character with plot armor. Tyrion, Jon, Arya, all should have been dead many times over by now. Jon has so much , that nobody even believes he's dead after being stabbed four times.

Precisely. Everyone seems to think that Dany is the only character who has plot armour and has been given too much by the author. You made an excellent point here.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

I must respectfully disagree with most of what you have said. Yes, the taking of Iron Throne was an idea instilled by Viserys but that does not mean that Dany would not be a good Queen, nor would it "crap" on her character development since I think that it is, in essence, what Dany's arc and development has been building up to.

You have a good point though, and I would be all for Dany being the founder of an Essosi Slave-Free Empire but I do see her sitting the Iron Throne, or at least coming to Westeros. There are multiple cases of foreshadowing, and were she to not come to Westeros at all would be a poor plot move. You also have the moment of self-realisation at the end of ADWD, which has put Dany in a position that I believe will have her heading to Westeros soon enough.

Also, why send her Barristan the Bold, Marwyn, Victarion (with a large number of ships) and Tyrion (who, like Victarion, is a POV character and whose story arc is clearly building up to something) merely to stay in Essos? No, Dany’s going to Westeros one way or another.

As the poster of this topic, :agree:

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, IMO Dany has now figured out what kind of a ruler she wants to be. At the end of aDwD, she has reached a point of self-realisation and discovery. She now sees that she has erred and has learned from her mistakes, and sees that Meereen will never be her city. She sees that she needs to change as a ruler and that Westeros is where she needs to go. Lest we forget,

:agree: However little she knows about them now, once Dany arrives in Westeros I'm sure that she will learn that they are pretty much the good guys in all of this.

I could not agree more!

Yes, I have to agree with you on every count. Dany is one of my favourite character (Arya, Jon and Tyrion and Stannis being my others) and I have enjoyed her POVs and I was rather surprised to find so much disdain for her on the forums. True, I have found a few Dany fans but fewer then I had initially expected.

I also agree with you on Dany staying in Westeros. It was the right thing to do, mayhaps not for the reader, but definitely for her. She needed to try to learn before it was too late, before she became, as you have said, a Robert Baratheon type of ruler, "Great at war but sucky at the Game of Thrones." To develop her character, and to do things properly and justly, she must stay in Meereen and attempt to right her wrongs, which really is a selfless act..

I too think that Tyrion will be of a huge help to her. He will teach her how to play the game more accurately, and on their journey to Westeros no doubt tell her of all the Great Houses, their lords and ladies and whom she should ally herself with etc.

Finally, thank you for your post. It was a refreshing take, and very interesting.

Precisely. Everyone seems to think that Dany is the only character who has plot armour and has been given too much by the author. You made an excellent point here.

All of this. IMO, by the end of the series Dany will have gone through one of the most comprehensive character arcs in the whole series. I've been (very slowly) working on a project about names as a reflection of where a character has been, where they're going, who they want to be, and who they will die as.

NO ONE, so far, that I can find, has had more names/identities than Dany. And rather than looking at this as a character flaw, which, of course she does have and they inform her journey, she, more than anyone else, is a nomad queen. She started the series as literally as "a beautiful girl with a famous last name" (a description used for Sansa, but to me even more fitting for Dany). Basically, she had nothing else (unless you count Viserys). All of the other children lords and kings had advisors, families, elders, counselors, and a specific geography to learn about and from. She has no people. She has no city. She is a survivor turned master adapter turned conquerer...she has her instincts and survival skills and wits and grace and courage...give her time in one place to learn how to rule, and find people who can actually help educate her in those arts in a useful manner and she WILL be an apt pupil. Her arc has frustrated and annoyed me too at times, but she has had to adapt to more conditions and cultures and identities than any other potential rulers in the series. Her arc is not done. Give her time. She'll find her own name.

[Parwan]

I can't see how any any sort of kinslayer charge is going to be a large factor in Dany's efforts in the seven kingdoms. She will have dragons. How well will they be controlled? That is a very important question. She will have some kind of relationship with all of the major houses and with other claimants to the throne. How many enemies, how many allies, how many people on the fence? These are the things for her to worry about. The business about Viserys's death is unlikely to loom large.

A version of the story has got back to Doran, either via Illyrio, or an agent in Essos. Vase Dothrak was also full of traders when it happened, and it was probably the talk of the city.

Dany is not a kinslayer, but her enemies can portray her as one quite plausibly.

I imagine the Dothraki would have been laughing about it for days, and those who were friendly with foreign merchants would surely have told them.

So Dany, and possibly Jorah, will arrive back in Westeros. There will be some people talking about events on the Dothraki sea. They will say something like, "Well, I have a brother who works on the docks. He told me this story that was told him by a sea captain who got it from a Pentosi trader who goes out to Vaes Dothrak..." Let's assume that the important people of the seven kingdoms have some degree of rationality. It should be easy for Daenerys and company to point out that they were actually at the event. Their version of things should count for more than a story from a brother about a conversation with a sea captain who said that...

Of course, it's possible to counter my argument by saying that people love gossip. They like a good story more than a rational analysis. As to that, see my further comments below.

Jorah said he sent the last report on her from Quarth. So, it's probably him that spread the story.

Is Jorah's report likely to have contained derogatory material on Dany's behavior? I doubt it. Also, any reports from Dany's handmaidens would likely have cast her in a good light. Let's say though that there is a version of events that has come through the rumor mill and shows Dany acting badly. Is there going to be any person in Westeros who backs this version and who can say that they were actually there in Vaes Dothrak? I don't think so. There will be at least one person who attacks this version and who can say that she was there.

Even if people want to believe that Daenerys acted badly toward her brother, is this going to be a big deal? There definitely are people who believe that Lord Stannis is involved with dark forces, that he may be to blame for Renly's death, that he is definitely to blame for Cortnay Penrose's death, and that a certain individual has been "fooling around" with his wife. Did any of this cause Stannis to lose the Battle of the Blackwater? Did any of it make it more difficult for him to win the Battle at the Wall? I don't see that any of it was in any way decisive. Whatever people believe about Dany and Viserys is likely to be no more important.

[MDT]

People repeatedly accuse Dany for using Meereen as testing platform, though I must admit I never saw it that way.

Sure she says that she can learn to rule there, but only after she realizes that she has no other viable option left as the Great Masters decided to leave only scorched earth behind.

To me it sounded more like a justification towards Barristan and herself that this will not be a total waste of time considering their goal to return to Westeros.

Am I the only one who read it that way?