Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

...

Is Jorah's report likely to have contained derogatory material on Dany's behavior? I doubt it. Also, any reports from Dany's handmaidens would likely have cast her in a good light. Let's say though that there is a version of events that has come through the rumor mill and shows Dany acting badly. Is there going to be any person in Westeros who backs this version and who can say that they were actually there in Vaes Dothrak? I don't think so. There will be at least one person who attacks this version and who can say that she was there.

Even if people want to believe that Daenerys acted badly toward her brother, is this going to be a big deal? There definitely are people who believe that Lord Stannis is involved with dark forces, that he may be to blame for Renly's death, that he is definitely to blame for Cortnay Penrose's death, and that a certain individual has been "fooling around" with his wife. Did any of this cause Stannis to lose the Battle of the Blackwater? Did any of it make it more difficult for him to win the Battle at the Wall? I don't see that any of it was in any way decisive. Whatever people believe about Dany and Viserys is likely to be no more important.

Jorah's report most likely stated the raw facts: "Drogo killed Viserys by crowning him with molten gold". No more. It is then open, to everyone who knows the facts, to speculate and interpret them the way they like, each with their own bias.

In Arianne's Winds of Winter chapter, it is made obvious that those events will play a role in how she will be viewed. At least one important person is not very likely to believe her testimony

The Stannis examble, actually reinforces the argument that PR is important. Stannis is not liked and it is his greatest disadvantage. No one sided with him, unless forced/defeated.

[Parwan]

Jorah's report most likely stated the raw facts: "Drogo killed Viserys by crowning him with molten gold". No more. It is then open, to everyone who knows the facts, to speculate and interpret them the way they like, each with their own bias.

I see no reason to be certain that Jorah's report just stated the raw facts. Perhaps it did. Perhaps it contained a good bit of detail. This much seems certain: If anyone asks the man to expand on his report, he is likely to justify Daenerys's actions.

The Stannis examble, actually reinforces the argument that PR is important. Stannis is not liked and it is his greatest disadvantage. No one sided with him, unless forced/defeated.

Stannis was never liked. I don't see that PR changed that much one way or the other. Jon Snow gave Stannis considerable advice without being forced or defeated. It's with Jon's help that Stannis avoids a trap and gets considerable northern aid in his march on Winterfell. Jon does this after Stannis all but calls Rob a traitor who got what he deserved. We get this reaction: "The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy Jon might have had for Stannis." Yet awhile later we find Jon advising Stannis.

[Parwan]

... It is then open, to everyone who knows the facts, to speculate and interpret them the way they like, each with their own bias.

In Arianne's Winds of Winter chapter, it is made obvious that those events will play a role in how she will be viewed. At least one important person is not very likely to believe her testimony

I don't see why Arianne won't believe the dragon queen.The quote as I have it is:

"It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."

"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.

"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"

"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."

"So I’ve heard. What of it?"

"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King’s daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know — "

"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

Arianne is saying "perhaps" and asking for information. Who can provide this information? Dany and Jorah would seem to be the main candidates. There is also a considerable "perhaps" concerning what Viserys did wrong. Lots of people can provide info about Viserys. If Westerosi with even half-way open minds hear about the fellow's character and activities, they are unlikely to judge Dany severely. They may come to believe that Drogo did a service to humanity. Daenerys is the mad king's daughter; Viserys was the mad king's son. Ser Daemon seems to be disposed to give the Targaryen queen a chance. Why wouldn't his counsel prevail?

[SeanF]

Arianne is venomously ambitious to be Queen. She won't give Daenerys the benefit of the doubt.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't see why Arianne won't believe the dragon queen.The quote as I have it is:

"It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."

"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.

"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"

"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."

"So I’ve heard. What of it?"

"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King’s daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know — "

"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

Arianne is saying "perhaps" and asking for information. Who can provide this information? Dany and Jorah would seem to be the main candidates. There is also a considerable "perhaps" concerning what Viserys did wrong. Lots of people can provide info about Viserys. If Westerosi with even half-way open minds hear about the fellow's character and activities, they are unlikely to judge Dany severely. They may come to believe that Drogo did a service to humanity. Daenerys is the mad king's daughter; Viserys was the mad king's son. Ser Daemon seems to be disposed to give the Targaryen queen a chance. Why wouldn't his counsel prevail?

I think that, in general, what one choses to believe has an awfull lot to do with his/her own interests and/or ambitions.

As for Stannis-Jon, what other options did Jon have? Stannis was the only one who came to their help. And of course he would help them against Bolton/Lannister... Likewise, if Daenerys comes at a time when she can pose as Westeros' only hope to survive, of course any disturbing tale would not be that important. But if we are discussing about "normal" game of thrones conditions, then you can bet it will be used against her.

[Parwan]

I think that, in general, what one choses to believe has an awfull lot to do with his/her own interests and/or ambitions.

As for Stannis-Jon, what other options did Jon have? Stannis was the only one who came to their help. And of course he would help them against Bolton/Lannister... Likewise, if Daenerys comes at a time when she can pose as Westeros' only hope to survive, of course any disturbing tale would not be that important. But if we are discussing about "normal" game of thrones conditions, then you can bet it will be used against her.

I don't know that "of course" is justified. The men of the NW, Jon included, always talk about how they take no part in the disputes of the realm. I doubt that the Viserys affair will be used effectively against Dany. Used perhaps, but probably not effectively; I don't see that the claim that Cersei's children are illegitimate has had much effect on the war. I very seriously doubt that conditions from here on will be anything like normal.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The kinslayer thing won't be a big problem I feel. Randyll Tarly seems to think that he could get away with causing Samwell's death, for example; as long as no one can pin it on you personally, you can kill anyone you want.

Randyll was gonna "arrange a hunting accident" for Sam which would allow Randyll to be blameless in the situation had it carried out. Dany's situation is dubious in that she did not arrange for Viserys to die or anything like that, but was sitting there while it happened. I do think it will be a problem. Its going to cause tension between Dany and Aegon. If Dany has the suspicions of kinslaying tied to her, Aegon's forces will not side with her. Why Dany allowed Viserys to die isnt gonna freaking matter to certain factions. I wish people would understand this. Arianne's sample chapter has Arianne musing over the reasoning but still seems to place the label of kinslayer on Dany.

We know she isn't a kinslayer, but it would be terribly easy for her enemies in Westeros to pin that label on her.

Arianne is thinking that Dany is a kinslayer. She's likely to be a very bitter rival to Dany. It would be so easy to make the argument "What kind of woman looks on while her husband murders her brother in front of her. The kind of woman who wanted to remove him from the succession."

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Yes. And if Arianne assumes, why not a lot of other people? Like someone upthread said, rumors start all over the place. It becomes a game of Telephone after awhile. Im pretty sure Jorah's report said something very basic like "Viserys was killed by Khal Drogo." The end, good bye. Ya know? There is a possibility that Jorah's reports to Varys and/or Illyrio did mention WHY Viserys was killed, but it was only the basic knowledge that ended up getting out. So "Viserys was killed by Khal Drogo" ends up being "Purple Monkey Dishwasher Dany killed her brother." at the end of the day. Ya know? Arianne gets mostly the Purple Monkey Dishwasher version. And its not gonna stop there.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Nor will she give Daenerys the chance to explain. Arianne hates that she missed her chance to be Queen with Visery's death, and now thinks to herself that if Aegon is really who he says he is, she might marry him and be Queen yet.

And thus, doom both herself and her house when her beautiful, long-lost Dragon Prince is revealed to be a Mummer's dragon made of sticks and cloth and the story of Aegon is shown to be too good to be true...

[Dany Girl]

Nor will she give Daenerys the chance to explain. Arianne hates that she missed her chance to be Queen with Visery's death, and now thinks to herself that if Aegon is really who he says he is, she might marry him and be Queen yet.

ya, well, she should thank Dany, Visaerys was a tool.

[direwienerdog]

Her problem is that she only has two ways of dealing with opponents:-

1. Cruelty.

2. Appeasement.

That's not an effective combination.

sure it is.It worked for 15 years for Robert.

[direwienerdog]

I think the only massive mistake Dany make is assuming Drogon killed the child and then locking her Dragons away. She forgets who she is and that is The last Dragon and the one and only Mother of Dragons.

As far as her going to Westeros and causing thousands to die, thats already happened with the War of the Five Kings and the resultant lack of food and the long winter coming.

Her mistake in Merreen is not acting with Fire and Blood against the Harpy.

At the end of ADWD even the wind/her subconscious is begging her to remember who she is.

[direwienerdog]

A version of the story has got back to Doran, either via Illyrio, or an agent in Essos. Vase Dothrak was also full of traders when it happened, and it was probably the talk of the city.

Dany is not a kinslayer, but her enemies can portray her as one quite plausibly.

Umm well maybe or they could look at the fact that VT gave/sold her to a bunch of savages who reneged on the promise of an army.

[MDT]

Umm well maybe or they could look at the fact that VT gave/sold her to a bunch of savages who reneged on the promise of an army.

Which, I'm afraid, is his right according to westerosi standards.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I think the only massive mistake Dany make is assuming Drogon killed the child and then locking her Dragons away. She forgets who she is and that is The last Dragon and the one and only Mother of Dragons.

As far as her going to Westeros and causing thousands to die, thats already happened with the War of the Five Kings and the resultant lack of food and the long winter coming.

Her mistake in Merreen is not acting with Fire and Blood against the Harpy.

At the end of ADWD even the wind/her subconscious is begging her to remember who she is.

Dany and the meereenese

Jon with stannis

Lannisters with the tyrells

They'll all similar in every time they ask for something and you give it they want more, I think it's a test to see how much they can push and Dany needs to realise her power I think. She conquered them and in ruling them its like she's apologising and backtracking to not seem like an evil conquerer. But I think she started to see her mistakes in the end of ADWD and hopefully things will get back on track now.

[Mad Monkey]

Which, I'm afraid, is his right according to westerosi standards.

Yeah, I don't see anyone being shocked and appalled by the fact that Dany entered into an arranged marriage for political purposes when almost every single female character from Westeros is was in that situation, is in that situation, or expects to someday be in that situation. Even babies get married (Ermesande Hayford).

[The Dragon Queen]

I personally love Dany's storyline. Her decisions and mistakes make her more human, she's not a comically oversold hero like you have in most stories, and there are a few in these novels too. I would love nothing more than to see the Targaryen line restored as rulers of Westeros, but I could also be happy with her being the lead of a nation of freemen. She has been told all her life that Westeros is rightfully the Targaryen's, but she has discovered, on her own, that the people of Essos need her more than she needs a big Iron Chair, and the day may come when Westeros needs her but for the time being her people, her true people, need her most. And to anyone who hates any of the characters in this story my only question is this: Why keep reading? If you hate Dany, or Stan, or Jon or anybody else then you're all hating the same guy. There is no Dany or Stan, just Martin.

finally someone i can completely agree with!!!! :drunk:

[Lady Nastja]

I think the only massive mistake Dany make is assuming Drogon killed the child and then locking her Dragons away. She forgets who she is and that is The last Dragon and the one and only Mother of Dragons.

As far as her going to Westeros and causing thousands to die, thats already happened with the War of the Five Kings and the resultant lack of food and the long winter coming.

Her mistake in Merreen is not acting with Fire and Blood against the Harpy.

At the end of ADWD even the wind/her subconscious is begging her to remember who she is.

I could not agree more. That was her one major mistake and IMO, she's seen that now. She knows that she was far too lenient and merciful when it came to the Harpy. She has seen the error of her ways, and she will be merciless when she returns to Meereen. That mistake has been realised, and will soon be rectified.

[The Dragon Queen]

yes i always thought she was being too lenient with the mereenese...i think she needs to realized that she CONQUERED them! and she would need to act swift and at time merciless if she is to secure the city...in a way she needs to act more like Tywin lannister! the cities of slaver's bay have to be completely under her control (she could always raise them to the ground?) if she wants the other free cities in Essos to follow her and outlaw slavery....

Green Grace should be the first one to be put to death when Danny comes back to the city...i definitely think that she is the HARPY

[Lady Nastja]

yes i always thought she was being too lenient with the mereenese...i think she needs to realized that she CONQUERED them! and she would need to act swift and at time merciless if she is to secure the city...in a way she needs to act more like Tywin lannister! the cities of slaver's bay have to be completely under her control (she could always raise them to the ground?) if she wants the other free cities in Essos to follow her and outlaw slavery....

Green Grace should be the first one to be put to death when Danny comes back to the city...i definitely think that she is the HARPY

I know. Dany conquered them, but she was indecisive, sometimes fanciful, and she acted too slowly in important decisions. She was far too gentle with Meereen, and Meereen is not a gentle city. At the end of aDwD however, she seems to realise the error of her ways and that she needs to be more like Tywin Lannister (though she herself would never make that comparison).

[Djinn]

Daenerys has evil feet.