Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[Nictarion]

'Who wants to follow a perfect character?' Of course that would be dull, but what is even more dull is following an imperfect character who learns as slowly as she does. Her storyline can't top the other storylines of characters in any regard. Redemption arc? Theon/Jaime. Noob starting the path to developing to political pro storyline? Sansa Stark. Full on fighting, intense storyline?

This is your opinion, one I don't personally share. Funny you mentioned Sansa, I personally think Dany's storyline has been way more interesting than hers, but I'm not going to constantly belittle people that are fans of hers, or say her story is boring on every thread concerning her. People have different tastes in characters, just like anything else.

[Mad Monkey]

Would she stay in Meereen "to protect her children" if she at that moment had means and mental capability to go to conquer and rule Westeros?

Just askin'

Mental capability...?

I thinK Daenerys feels a sense of obligation towards her people. She COULD have taken Xaro Xhoan Daxos's ships and sailed to Westeros if she wanted to (though obviously there's no guarantee that this would be a good idea). But if she had just left them in Meereen they would have been enslaved again by the time her ships vanished over the horizon, and if she tried to take them all to Westeros where would they live?

C'mon, she's hardly the only character with plot armor. Tyrion, Jon, Arya, all should have been dead many times over by now. Jon has so much , that nobody even believes he's dead after being stabbed four times.

I think one of the enduring themes of the series is that there is no such thing as "should be alive" or "should be dead". People die when their time is up, when the Many-Faced God marks them in their book, whatever. There are people who suffer and die even if they are careful or even timid, while the reckless and foolish can live on for a long time. Every action carries a risk, and ultimately it's not even up to the actor to decide if their next step will be off a cliff.

Tywin is one of the smartest and more capable rulers in all of Westeros and he died because he said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time, even though at any other point in the series Tyrion would have never dreamed of shooting him. Kevan was just going about his own business when he walked directly into oblivion at the hands of someone he couldn't possibly suspect. Meanwhile people like Daario Naharis, Euron Greyjoy, and many others willfully put themselves in harm's way and take almost insane risks and still survive because it isn't their time yet and they still have a part to play.

[Queen Elsa]

<snip>

Her final chapter in Dance was pretty amazing. It suggests that she has made a choice and accepted who she is and her words, "Fire and Blood". I think the wishy-washy Dany is gone, but to be a credible character for the challenges ahead, she needed to discover who she is--and that is what her chapters in Dance were all about. The same could be said for Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, Tyrion, Jamie and so many others. Now the doubt is burnt away.

Great post Dragon Roast. In DwD, she sort of forget who she is and let others turn her into someone she is not. Drogon did not recognize her in the Daznak's pit and he just ignore her while they are alone in "Dragonstone." Quaithe said, "Remember who you are... The dragons know. Do you?" And after remembering the words that she must go back to move forward, Dany suddenly knows what she must do. And because of that, Drogon hears that his mother is calling him so he comes, let her ride him and let his mom lead the way without a problem. I agree, she needs to discover who she is. It took her a while finding the answer though but she found it.

TWOW will be a lot of fun. I hope George is writing today...

Cheers

Can't wait! :cheers:

[Nictarion]

Mental capability...?

I thinK Daenerys feels a sense of obligation towards her people. She COULD have taken Xaro Xhoan Daxos's ships and sailed to Westeros if she wanted to (though obviously there's no guarantee that this would be a good idea). But if she had just left them in Meereen they would have been enslaved again by the time her ships vanished over the horizon, and if she tried to take them all to Westeros where would they live?

I think one of the enduring themes of the series is that there is no such thing as "should be alive" or "should be dead". People die when their time is up, when the Many-Faced God marks them in their book, whatever. There are people who suffer and die even if they are careful or even timid, while the reckless and foolish can live on for a long time. Every action carries a risk, and ultimately it's not even up to the actor to decide if their next step will be off a cliff.

Tywin is one of the smartest and more capable rulers in all of Westeros and he died because he said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time, even though at any other point in the series Tyrion would have never dreamed of shooting him. Kevan was just going about his own business when he walked directly into oblivion at the hands of someone he couldn't possibly suspect. Meanwhile people like Daario Naharis, Euron Greyjoy, and many others willfully put themselves in harm's way and take almost insane risks and still survive because it isn't their time yet and they still have a part to play.

Idk about that.

[Mad Monkey]

Heh, OK, but only dreams. I can't imagine Tyrion actually shooting Tywin in the crotch when they were talking in AGOT, for example.

[Angalin]

mod note: If you can't contribute to the discussion without making disagreements personal or offering reasonable discourse, don't bother contributing at all.

[Dany Girl]

she doesnt hang lords up with their guts out but she does do that to slavers and her enemies.

Stannis most definitely shows that he cares about the smallfolk. Have you even read any of his chapters at the wall? A smallfolk is his freakin hand.

Its hilarious that you are claiming that none of the other candidates from westeros would do anything about the slaves. Slavery is aboloshed in westeros. Ned was going to kill Jorah over it. Stop creating completely invalid arguments. You've done that in every single post in your back an forth with Danm

I said that she won't be repeating that action.

And yes, I'll give it to stannis that he seems to care about the small folk too, as did edmure. But most of the leaders in this story don't seem to care how their actions effect the small folk.

And no, I don't believe that any of the others would have attempted what dany has in slavers bay because I don't think they would have gone there to begin with.

danys life is completely different than anyone else's. She has no real allies in her fight, therefore has had to make them. Sometimes that meant overlooking their flaws to get them on her side.

[Dany Girl]

You did include them though. You said every single character had shown themselves to be hypocritical. Now you're trying to walk that back.

Own what you've said. Me pointing that out to you is not 'grasping at straws'.

So you're admitting he hasn't shown any hypocrisy yet then.

.......

Jesus christ, and you're accusing me of grasping at straws?

If dead characters don't count, why the hell did you include Robb and Renly as examples of hypocrisy that excuses Dany?

Did he? When? We don't know what oath Jon Arryn swore.

No words on Baelor Breakspear? He came off incredibly un-hypocritical in the Hedge Knight.

Umm, she could not have pushed Drogo into invading Westeros. She's the catalyst behind the need for ships, and thus the slaves to buy them.

Ah so even though they were 'gifts' given to her, she couldn't have freed them, or asked Xaro to pay them a wage (even though this is exactly what she does in the khalasar).

And since they were well taken care of (which, BTW, it's never established how Xaro treats his slaves), it's ok that they're enslaved and that she looks the other way whilst they see to her every need?

But wait, that's exactly my problem. If Daenerys didn't get to stand up for herself, had no appreciable agency and commit her first act until she was 15, doesn't it underscore the horror of killing elite Astapori kids who are 13, 14, 15? How come they didn't get the same amount of time as Dany to move out of the shadows of their parents and siblings as she did?

Woah woah woah woah woah.

First of all, you'll have to source this.

Secondly, are you saying it's ok for Daenerys to go by the mores of Ghiscari society when deciding which children die, but it's ok to abandon those mores in everything else? If she's imposing Westerosi or personal standards here, shouldn't it be the 15 or 16 year olds that are the cut off point? I thought we had established Ghiscari culture was repugnant enough that it needed to go, but we'll use it to decide 13, 14, 15 year olds die?

Thirdly, there didn't have to be a line. She merely could have told her Unsullied to kill only the soldiers, and the people holding the whips. She didn't have to kill everyone in a tokar.

Ok;

Stannis: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Stannis would have told him no, as slavery is illegal and unjust.

Robb: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Robb would have told him no, as slavery is immoral and a sin in the eyes of the Old Gods.

Joffrey: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Joffrey would have erupted in ecstacy, likely paid happily for the slaves.

Tommen: Tommen would do whatever he was told. He would not be consulted.

So basically, I'd say Stannis and Robb would have rejected slavery as a means to take the Seven Kingdoms outright, which while it might seem terrible for the Astapori slaves on the face of it, it'd mean they'd at least be alive, which is not really something we can see for most of them after Daenerys is done with Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. Most Astapori slaves from the pre-Daenerys era are dead from starvation, the Pale Mare, or from King Cleon, or the Yunkish siege that Quentyn Martell saw first hand.

Edmure Tully. Jon Snow. Ned Stark. Doran Martell. Beric Dondarrion. Davos Seaworth. Arthur Dayne.

And you mean the Westerosi small folk, right?

Because if so, the only time I can remember her ever thinking/talking about them is when she speaks to Jorah about Viserys chance at regaining the throne, and Jorah tells her that when the high lords want to play the game of thrones, the smallfolk just want to be left alone, and that they never are. Yet she later in the book decides to invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki (who aren't known for their gentle nature).

She seems totally indifferent to the idea of small folk. She may care for them when she gets to Westeros, but we've not seen that yet.

I gave you a list above of leaders who have been very good to the 'little people'.

comparing someone like Gilly to Dany is grasping at straws since I was speaking about the people who are leaders. This thread is about Dany as a leader. As for breakspear, I haven't read hedge knight so I can't speak to him. Ad to Arryn, he's dead at the beginning of the series so I don't include him too much either. Also if you think a lord is not expected to have sworn an oath to the king to defend them you're wrong. That's why all the Lord's had to bend knee to Robert to aknowledge his rule over them. By accepting someone as your king you are swearing loyalty to them.

Again, I don't see Dany as perfect, but I don't think she is evil. I see her asva young woman that has been told she is supposed to rule her entire life but has had absolutely no one to show her how. When she was young and they had their knight protecting them his instruction would have been focused on Visaerys not Dany. The only people she has are Mormont and Selmy. She's doing the best she can with the tools she has. I don't understand the outright hate of any character (except maybe Joffery or Gregor who were supposed to hate).Everyone else has their good points and bad. Everyone else has had good moments and made mistakes. It's ok to have a favorite, but to completely write off a character that GRRM has obviously included for his own reasons is to me silly. She has a valid purpose. Her time in Meereen serves a purpose. Just because it's not clear yet what it is doesn't mean it isn't an important plot point.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Again, I don't see Dany as perfect, but I don't think she is evil. I see her asva young woman that has been told she is supposed to rule her entire life but has had absolutely no one to show her how. When she was young and they had their knight protecting them his instruction would have been focused on Visaerys not Dany. The only people she has are Mormont and Selmy.

That's the weird thing. Dany HASN'T been told she is supposed to rule. She has been told VISERYS is supposed to rule. She's been told "TARGARYANS are the rightful kings, the greatest dynasty ever to live, the forgers of the Seven Kingdoms," but it was always in relation to her brother Viserys. He was the one who was being flattered and pampered and told false stories about the smallfolk secretly yearning for his return, stories he'd repeat to Dany. Jorah originally swore himself to Viserys. Selmy came east looking for Viserys. Even Dany knew that her job in life was to give Viserys silver-haired, purple-eyed children. Everyone's plans were always about Viserys, and once Illario saw how stupid and useless Viserys really was, he married his sister to a Khal as a way of sending him off into the Dothraki sea to die. Even her marriage was really about Viserys.

Basically, Dany is a girl. So no one really paid attention to her, and she was definitely never intended to rule. The idea that she might seize control of the Targaryan legacy for herself, and start wielding power in her own name, would have made Viserys, Illario, and basically anyone else you ran the idea past laugh. It's just not something girls DO in this world, no matter how highborn they are.

[Dany Girl]

That's the weird thing. Dany HASN'T been told she is supposed to rule. She has been told VISERYS is supposed to rule. She's been told "TARGARYANS are the rightful kings, the greatest dynasty ever to live, the forgers of the Seven Kingdoms," but it was always in relation to her brother Viserys. He was the one who was being flattered and pampered and told false stories about the smallfolk secretly yearning for his return, stories he'd repeat to Dany. Jorah originally swore himself to Viserys. Selmy came east looking for Viserys. Even Dany knew that her job in life was to give Viserys silver-haired, purple-eyed children. Everyone's plans were always about Viserys, and once Illario saw how stupid and useless Viserys really was, he married his sister to a Khal as a way of sending him off into the Dothraki sea to die. Even her marriage was really about Viserys.

Basically, Dany is a girl. So no one really paid attention to her, and she was definitely never intended to rule. The idea that she might seize control of the Targaryan legacy for herself, and start wielding power in her own name, would have made Viserys, Illario, and basically anyone else you ran the idea past laugh. It's just not something girls DO in this world, no matter how highborn they are.

you're right. everything was directed at Visaerys, and up until he died, she supported his claim. once he died, what else could she do? she's heard her whole life that it's her family's duty to rule, and with her being the last dragon, it was thus her responsibility to take over. what else could she do anyways? what other choice does she have? give up her family's responsibility and just hang around the red sea with her warlord husband?

[Nictarion]

you're right. everything was directed at Visaerys, and up until he died, she supported his claim. once he died, what else could she do? she's heard her whole life that it's her family's duty to rule, and with her being the last dragon, it was thus her responsibility to take over. what else could she do anyways? what other choice does she have? give up her family's responsibility and just hang around the red sea with her warlord husband?

I also think she took the birth of the dragons as a definite sign that she is meant for greatness.

[yushkevsh]

Easy to forgive her, it's not her fault she hasn't charged into Westeros with her dragon's, it's GRRM's - he's the one that realized she can't do anything until her dragons are full-grown.

So everything she has done since they've been hatched is merely stalling the inevitable.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I also think she took the birth of the dragons as a definite sign that she is meant for greatness.

Well, it's not like she was a passive witness to the birth either. She didn't just happen to be there when the eggs cracked and went "oh! It's a sign!" She made that magic happen somehow. She knew those dragons were coming. She knew it would work. Somehow.

This is why I get upset when people accuse Dany of just sitting around while people give her things. Everything she's gotten, she's worked for.

[Florina Laufeyson]

To be fair the show did Dany's character more harm than good and I think that's where some people get their impressions from, I say that because usually the day after a big Dany episode has been on the Dany hate seems to escalate. I'm not saying that people haven't read the books, but when you haven't read them over and over your not going to remember everything and the show can blur the memory of the book,

Im not so sure. The show is basically showing us what its like to see Dany without being in her head. As readers, we have the benefit of knowing what her thoughts about various actions and surroundings are. A visual medium like the show cannot show this, especially not on the same level. So to show only fans, Dany is going to appear differently. She does, however, have a lot of show-only fans.

That's the weird thing. Dany HASN'T been told she is supposed to rule. She has been told VISERYS is supposed to rule. She's been told "TARGARYANS are the rightful kings, the greatest dynasty ever to live, the forgers of the Seven Kingdoms," but it was always in relation to her brother Viserys. He was the one who was being flattered and pampered and told false stories about the smallfolk secretly yearning for his return, stories he'd repeat to Dany. Jorah originally swore himself to Viserys. Selmy came east looking for Viserys. Even Dany knew that her job in life was to give Viserys silver-haired, purple-eyed children. Everyone's plans were always about Viserys, and once Illario saw how stupid and useless Viserys really was, he married his sister to a Khal as a way of sending him off into the Dothraki sea to die. Even her marriage was really about Viserys.

Basically, Dany is a girl. So no one really paid attention to her, and she was definitely never intended to rule. The idea that she might seize control of the Targaryan legacy for herself, and start wielding power in her own name, would have made Viserys, Illario, and basically anyone else you ran the idea past laugh. It's just not something girls DO in this world, no matter how highborn they are.

This is an interesting point and one that may end up biting Dany on the rear end. Those in Dany's orbit who had the chance to meet Viserys, knew he was basically Aerys 2.0. Barristan seems to take Dany's word for it too. Illyrio did in fact, arrange for Viserys to get out of the picture like you said. I also dont think he banked on Dany getting as far as she did with dragons to boot. Still, he went ahead with Operation Aegon. Jorah knows Viserys from first hand experience and knew he was a douchecanoe. But what about those in Westeros that put a lot of plans into Viserys, like Doran? They didnt meet Viserys, and i find it unlikely they will just take Dany's word for her brother being a shit. Arianne's sample chapter gives us two different perspectives on this.

Arianne muses about Viserys.

"It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."

"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.

"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"

"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."

"So I’ve heard. What of it?"

"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King’s daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know — "

"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

Ser Daemon thinks Viserys may have simply pissed off the Dothraki and doesnt really think much of it. In fact, he kind of handwaves it away. Arianne, on the other hand questions the purpose of Viserys' death. Part of her is even mildly sympathetic to Dany in thinking perhaps she just didnt want to be some Khal's wife stuck in a tent. But she also ponders if Viserys' death is Dany's doing in order to get claim to the Iron Throne. Ser Daemon reminds Arianne "we cannot know." meaning they cant know if Dany is batshit or blood thirsty just yet. But he also says "we can only hope." which means he hopes that Dany isnt like her father. But the fact that Arianne brings this up could very well mean that accusations of kinslaying may be flung at Dany.

Feelings about Dany and Viserys in Westeros are going to be very...mixed.

[Nictarion]

Easy to forgive her, it's not her fault she hasn't charged into Westeros with her dragon's, it's GRRM's - he's the one that realized she can't do anything until her dragons are full-grown.

So everything she has done since they've been hatched is merely stalling the inevitable.

I disagree. GRRM could have made the dragons grow at any speed he wanted. Dany's storyline was definitely not pointless, IMO. She's learning how rule, she's got the conquering part down, but she still needs work on the ruling part. And I don't agree with those that say using Meereen as guinea pigs was not right. It was a win, win for her, she saw a terrible wrong that she had the power to stop, and also learn how to rule, better on a smaller scale, as oposed to an entire war torn country.

[Nictarion]

This is why I get upset when people accuse Dany of just sitting around while people give her things. Everything she's gotten, she's worked for.

I completely agree.

[Parwan]

people compare Dany to other characters because its the logical thing to do, there has to be a compass somewhere and it makes most sense to compare her with other characters who exist in yhe same fictional universe. otherwise its stupid to compare her to George Bush or Obama or whoever you get your idea of who is a good leader from.

I agree that comparing Dany to other characters (especially other leaders) is a rational thing to do. On other threads I've tried a different sort of Obama/Bush comparison. Unfortunately, this has not worked out well. Maybe other posters didn't understand my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. At any rate, I believe it's worth another try.

I presume that not everyone will be wiped out in Westeros at the end of ASoIaF. Thus, there will be some sort of central government, or a set of separate kingdoms, each with its own government. Someone will be the head of this (these) government(s). Surely GRRM is not going to come up with a totally new character who will come in and be the great monarch. Thus, we are in a situation that can be compared to an election. No, it's not the same, but it's close enough for our purposes. Sometimes you have to choose the best alternative (say Bush or Gore), even if the best is not very good. It is quite possible in our case to say that character X would, overall, be better than most or all of the others. If other posters point up bad points about X, one can legitimately reply that the other characters have even more and worse bad points. I don't want to be insulting, but I think this thread is getting a bit sidetracked on issues about hypocrisy and how various posters may be over-sensitive to attacks on their favorite characters. One can make relative judgements. Sometimes they are the best judgements available.

For the present, I'll content myself with one example: the common people and war. I don't accept the idea that Dany has less concern for the common people because she wants to wage war in order to become queen. In that, she is like just about everyone else who is trying to take the throne. There is plenty of evidence that Dany cares for the common people. Is there supposed to be some distinction between her feelings about the people of Meereen vs. the people of Westeros? If she cares for one, why wouldn't she care for the other? Now, trying to compare her feelings on this issue to that of other leaders is a fairly tall order. Nevertheless, it can be done and may well be worth doing. Some other comparisons are worth doing. I'll make them in later posts.

[JLE]

again, I think the *best* things Dany has done are to try and stay in Meereen, and to chain the dragons - although she should have put better effort to training them to act in a way that suits civilized people, rather than let them do as they please until they had to be chained.

Dragons are fire incarnate. Uncontrolled fire? Spreads out of control. Destroys things. Burns down houses, people, even cities. Ever heard of the Great Fire of London? Fire is only any good when it is strictly under control, kept within limited bounds.

"Remember what you are"... but is that heritage something that should be embraced, or escaped from? There is more than one instance in literature of people coming from an "evil" background and turning against it. The Targaryen background has a great deal of madness, instability, bloodlust and pyromania in it, forgetting that they are not ACTUAL dragons but just people who use a dragon symbol: it's not actually a heritage I would WANT. If a serial killer has children, how do they grow up knowing what their parent has done? (I'm also a bit into this shtick because it's the central plank of some rather famous computer games such as "Baldur's Gate" and "Knights of the Old Republic" - or other similar games where the protagonist may align with Good but still has to live down the evil deeds of a parent, ancestor, or even their own past misdeeds.) Will it end up as "Remember what you are, and become it" or "Remember what you were, and escape it"?

It's possible that going off with Drogon could end up being a diastrous throwback, something that encourages her to take the dragon method of dealing with problems - "burn the lot of them and let the afterlife sort them out". Dany really needs to learn what Aerys was. And also learn that for every Baelor Breakspear there was an Aerion Brightflame: for every Aemon the Dragonknight there was an Aegon the Unworthy, for every Daeron II there was a Daemon Blackfyre, for every Aegon V there were several who were "mad sons of a madman" or "feeble-witted daughters" or "sickly sons that died of the summer plague". As Emperor Claudius puts it in "I, Claudius" - there are two kinds of apples on the family tree, but the crab apples outnumber the sweet apples.

Besides - never mind the whole dragon symbolism, but as a member of a dynasty, she's last of her line, and believes herself unable to have children again (this may even be true) after the death of her unborn child Rhaego and after Mirri's statement about when she will be reunited with Drogo: or at best, unable to survive the birth of one. In other words, she's a succession crisis waiting to happen anyway. And who is her current lawful successor if she should happen to die? According to what is currently known (and assuming "Aegon" is not the real son of Rhaegar and Elia), it would genuinely be the Baratheon dynasty, i.e. the few remaining people who believe Tommen and Myrcella legitimate would have them at the top of the list, otherwise it's Stannis anyway. And after him, the Martells, and after them, the Blackfyres. Even if she takes Westeros by conquest, she will not found a dynasty to hold it.

[The Idiots Lantern]

This is an interesting point and one that may end up biting Dany on the rear end.

Or the front end. The Targaryans have never had a Queen Regnant, and the last time a Targaryan woman tried to become one, it caused a "Dance" that killed most of the dragons and left the dynasty permanently diminished. She obviously doesn't know what she's getting into in claiming power for herself. This is both a good and bad thing. She doesn't know what can't be done, so she might find a way to do it, but also whoa, does she ever have her work cut out for her....

[Dragon Roast]

Or the front end. The Targaryans have never had a Queen Regnant, and the last time a Targaryan woman tried to become one, it caused a "Dance" that killed most of the dragons and left the dynasty permanently diminished. She obviously doesn't know what she's getting into in claiming power for herself. This is both a good and bad thing. She doesn't know what can't be done, so she might find a way to do it, but also whoa, does she ever have her work cut out for her....

Good point, Dany is in new territory and the signs and portents of old have been passed down with a gender bias that will surprise anybody below the intellectual level of Aemon Targaryen--which seems to be almost everybody.

Once she accepts who she is and what it means to be a Targ, she will be playing the Game at a new level. I think that moment happened at the end of FeastDance. Time will tell.

Write George, write. Like the Widow of the Waterfront, we are waiting...