Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[Mad Monkey]

I think I'm one of the few people who thinks that poor Hizdahr was framed. I don't think he tried to kill Dany and I don't think that he is the cause of the Harpy attacks. Daenerys was right to marry him; she had no way of knowing that every other male character in the series would be lining up for her hand. She did it for the good of Meereen, because she understood and accepted that Meereen required a native son to share the power so that they could finally accept the rule.

I was also amused that someone argued that Dany had SO many good advisers. She had, like, three of them. The Green Grace, who everyone seems to consider History's Greatest Monster. Reznak, who is basically a less charming, intelligent, and attractive version of Varys. And Skahaz, who is so over-the-top paranoid that he was recently denied a job at WND for being too blatant. They had some smart advice, of course, but Dany had to take them all with a grain of salt because she is their conqueror, not their friend, and she has no way of knowing which of their suggestions are really in her best interest, which are the result of their own neuroses, and which are just blatant sabotage. It's no surprise that things went south with that level of quality service.

[mindchap]

I mean, when you use a city and its inhabitants as guinea pigs for an experiment "how to rule", you are a bad human being.

You're absolutely right, so much better just to turn a blind eye to slavery than to try and do anything about it.

She says that after admiting that she knows batsh*t about rulling and that she needs to learn.

Adding a colorful explicative doesn't make your point any more or less valid, just makes it look like it was written by a 12 year old.

HAHAHA best thing I read all day. She's a little girl by our standards but she is Khaleesi and Mother and w/e else titles she have taken on and should need to learn from her mistakes/not repeat them. I don't have the time to type up a proper argument for each of Lyanna Wildheart's points (although some I do agree with) but her biggest mistakes to me were her treatment of the dragons and the chaos she allowed the Sons of Harpy to sow. Should've just wrecked their shit by killing a kid or two or *god forbid* catching one of them in the act??? How does a whole army of unsullied not catch a single one of those mofos for over half a year. Then again, I'm a fan of more Machiavellian characters and perhaps that doesn't fit her very well.

You should work for the UN, how is it that 80% of the world's militaries took ten years to catch Bin Laden? Fighting an army is far easier than fighting a single assassin, or even a group of assassins who operate one on one.

[C0bR]

You're absolutely right, so much better just to turn a blind eye to slavery than to try and do anything about it.

As far as I am concerned, she is still using an army of slaves as her main military force and so her "freeing of slaves and protecting them" really does not strike as anything more than hypocrisy that serves well her lust for blood and need of having some on whom she can try to be a ruler. And I am sure many of those people would rather remain slaves than being at mercy of a totally incompetent ruler whose main concerns consist of eating olives and being taken in "every way man take a woman" while her city suffers from famine and crime she caused.

[Nictarion]

a totally incompetent ruler whose main concerns consist of eating olives and being taken in "every way man take a woman"

At least come up with valid criticism, it would make the debate more interesting.

[mindchap]

As far as I am concerned, she is still using an army of slaves as her main military force and so her "freeing of slaves and protecting them" really does not strike as anything more than hypocrisy that serves well her lust for blood and need of having some on whom she can try to be a ruler. And I am sure many of those people would rather remain slaves than being at mercy of a totally incompetent ruler whose main concerns consist of eating olives and being taken in "every way man take a woman" while her city suffers from famine and crime she caused.

She gave the Unsullied a choice, it's not an army of slaves when they have all chosen to follow her, and as for the "what other choice did they have" argument, they had the same choices that every free person in Martin's world has which are usually not good choices to begin with but that's life in this universe. None of the main characters in these novels are great rulers from the get go if they were there would be no story. And considering all the sex that every other main character has a taste for why shouldn't Dany have the same? And before anyone says "Stannis wouldn't..." Stannis betrayed his king, and in Westeros that's a huge deal. I should also point out that Dany is only shown eating two olives in the entire series.

[Jon Wat]

Mindless, idiotic hate is what i see in every Dany-related thread. Almost every argument laid here to bash Dany can be used to some extent on other characters, but why bother with that when you can just follow the crowd and make Daenerys the single most hated person in ASOIAF? I don't even know why people bother making these threads anymore.

I can already hear the haters assembling, it's scary.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

_{One thing people seem to forget is that Daenerys is about 16 years old or so. She's still a kid, basically. Sure, her life experiences are far beyond those of a real, modern day 16 year old, but let's not forget that she's still a hormonal, confused teenager. Her questionable decision making is in part due to that. Her relations, reactions, and such are all tied connected to that. I'm not saying that it's all because she's a kid, but it DOES play a part.}

i agree with you in that when analyzing Dany you need to look at it from this context, but I hate it when someone uses it as an excuse for any character when the character has agency

[Florina Laufeyson]

Staying in Meereen:

*snip*

I do think, by this time, Dany is a little tired of moving around. Her thing was that she seemed to think that everyone would accept her.

Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon:

*snip*

The problem here was that Dany didnt bother training her dragons outside "dracarys". Granted, she didnt seem to know how, but the lack of attempt to find out is what really burns people's bacon. We dont see Dany trying to train these guys so as a result, Drogon munched on a kid. Drogon, however, has bonded with Dany enough that he will eventually bend to her will. The other two, well...no. She pretty much lost control of them and they were loosed. I find it very difficult to imagine that Dany can regain control of these two. This is obviously a plot move on GRRM's part in order for Rhaegal and Viserion to be out of Dany's grasp. At least she has Drogon...

Daario and Hizdahr:

*snip*

I for one, do not criticize Dany for getting bizzay with Daario. I dont really care. In fact, i find Daario's influence on her to be more positive, since he likes to remind Dany of who she is. Her being so public about it also doesnt bother me very much. Although, she should have told Daario to be a little quieter about it. Hes a bit of a boaster.

As for Hizdahr, most people dislike him because hes kind of a flat character. Her decision to marry him was an attempt at stabilization. She figured that if she married a Ghiscari, the Harpy activity would dwindle. It did for a little while but started up again. This is a clue that Hizdahr himself isnt really the answer to calming that storm. The Sons are controlled by someone else and simply marrying Hizdahr didnt solve the problem. So she opened the fighting pits. Still, this didnt stop the Harpy entirely did it? Just who did send those poisoned locusts?

The Ruling of Meereen:

*snip*

Dany's biggest problem was not constructing a good enough information network. Even the reader is having a little difficulty trusting the Shavepate. Not only that, but some of her inner monologue when sitting in court is basically: "Ugh will these assholes just shut up?! Its just one thing after another with them!" Plus her regard for their culture is....lacking at best. Dany made the mistake of opening up to the Green Grace who is a figure that shouldnt be trusted. If the Green Grace is indeed the Harpy, as i think she is, this was a totally dumb move. If we assume the Green Grace is the Harpy, the Harpy now knows Dany's weaknesses. While Dany's advisers try to convince her to compromise, she has trouble doing this. Its only after murders happen at length does she attempt to.

Dany isnt to blame for the Pale Mare coming in and fucking up most of the population however. But i dont think anyone (with a brain) blames her for that.

Her Possible Ruling of Westeros:

*snip*

Har. Umm.. Theres this thing in Westeros called "Right of Conquest." House Targaryen has pretty much lost that right when Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne. Theres also a faction working in the name of House Targaryen to regain the Iron Throne already. This is gonna make things all the harder for Dany when she gets there. As for the Martells...baahahaha. Quentyn went to Meereen and ended up Rhaegal's BBQ Special. Quentyn's companions made it out of there and if you think they are gonna be honest about what happened to their prince, you are sadly mistaken. Once word of Quent's death hits Doran and company, they will no longer back Dany's cause at all. In fact, they will back the cause of the one claiming to be Doran's nephew, fake or not. Arianne's sample chapter gives us:

That she is in fact, en-route to meet Aegon. Its very likely a marriage will be brokered seeing how Viserys is dead and that was Arianne's intended. Arianne herself, questions Viserys' death and contemplates that Dany may be a kinslayer and had her husband kill Viserys in order to gain claim to the Iron Throne.

Not very good news for Dany is it?

Its likely that other Targ loyalists will be divided on which Targ to back. While some readers think it more logical to back the one with dragons, the point is, Dany isnt there yet. On top of that, Dany has not yet formed any real alliances in Westeros. Oops. Its actually quite unclear who in Westeros, would welcome Dany with open arms. The North? LOL, no. Those guys want independence. Dorne? Har. See above. The Reach? Unlikely since their cause is in the current king. The Riverlands? :dunno: They seem to be somewhat loyal to the Northern cause. The Stormlands? See Aegon. Also Stannis. The Ironborn have their own agenda, and they may back Dany if Victarion is successful in what hes trying to do.

Dany is pretty much up shit creek without a paddle in regards to Westeros. Shes gonna have to take it with force and violently if she wants to succeed. Its foreshadowed that Aegon and Dany will clash in a second Dance of the Dragons.

[Ser Wun Wun]

They are brainwashed, emotionless eunuchs that know nothing else than art of war. They don't have feelings, they don't have passions, they are not normal people, if you can even call them that. T

.......

ADWD; Dany

“Even those who lack a man’s parts may still have a man’s heart, Your Grace,” said Grey Worm. “This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels to lie with him and hold him.”

[mindchap]

.......“Even those who lack a man’s parts may still have a man’s heart, Your Grace,” said Grey Worm. “This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels to lie with him and hold him.”

They have also formed their own religion, which would require passion and thinking.

I'm still waiting for a response to my question about hypocrisy, if people have a problem with hypocrites then why read any of it?

[Dany Girl]

They have also formed their own religion, which would require passion and thinking.

I'm still waiting for a response to my question about hypocrisy, if people have a problem with hypocrites then why read any of it?

I completely agree. Every single hopeful for the IT is flawed and shows moments of hypocrisy. It's really annoying how people brush Dany off as something worse than the rest.

[Tagganaro]

They have also formed their own religion, which would require passion and thinking.

I'm still waiting for a response to my question about hypocrisy, if people have a problem with hypocrites then why read any of it?

What? I also have a problem with murder and rape, like most people. Does that mean I should stop reading the books?

[danm_999]

Staying in Meereen:

Daenerys has been judged rather harshly for staying in Meereen, and rather unnecessarily IMO. When she took Meereen, she initially planned to stay there for a short time.

And that's the problem. She came in a plunderer, and decided to stay afterwards. But once you come in a plunderer, you've screwed yourself for the peaceful stay afterwards route. Basically, Daenerys did some very foolish things in Slaver's Bay that would have been fine if she intended to leave, but are disastrous burdens given she decides to stay at the eleventh hour and try and rule the Ghiscari. These include;

• Double crossing the Astapori Wise Masters;
  
• Setting up a cardboard council in Astapor that buckled the second she left;
  
• Burning the tokar of the emissary of Yunkai;
  
• Allowing the Wise Masters of Yunkai to live unmolested;
  
• Crucifying only some of the Meerenese Wise Masters, ensuring the others would see her as a mad tyrant;
  
• Pissing off/persecuting the Ghiscari elite of the region enough, but not taking all their power.
  

So, all these actions made sense when she was going to leave for Westeros after conquering Meereen, but given she decided to stay, they actually make it almost impossible for her to make any sort of peace with the Ghiscari. We see this bite Daenerys repeatedly in ADWD; the Yunkish, Tolosi, New Ghiscari, Qartheen and Volantenes will not trust her. In that region of the world, her word and her integrity is about as rock solid as Walder Frey's is in Westeros.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Do you think they even understand a difference between being treated like a slave and being treated like a human? No they don't.

They are brainwashed, emotionless eunuchs that know nothing else than art of war. They don't have feelings, they don't have passions, they are not normal people, if you can even call them that. They are slaves, their brains are slaves, their bodies are slaves. For someone seemingly being very invested in the wrongs of slavery, you seem terribly ignorant to how Unsullied were created although it was described in depth.

She may gave them "a choice", but they are following her because she bought them.

This is absolute bullshit. The Unsullied have emotions and feelings, have you even read ADWD?

"This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of brothels to lie with him and hold him." The blood of the dragon does not weep.

The Unsullied are free to whatever they want, and they are even given coin for them to use. Can you at least research properly before making such statements about the books.

[mindchap]

What? I also have a problem with murder and rape, like most people. Does that mean I should stop reading the books?

Are you seriously going to put hypocrisy in the same league with rape and murder?

[C0bR]

Yeah, sure, they are utterly normal. Maybe they would be good neighbours. On the left side would live the carpenter and that one on right side would be the Unsullied with an inn and his name would be Boris. They are entirely capable of those things...

Oh wait, they aren't.

Seriously, you guys are just wicked, going to such a lenghts just to make her look like a perfect human being.

I am done here.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Yeah, sure, they are utterly normal. Maybe they would be good neighbours. On the left side would live the carpenter and that one on right side would be the Unsullied with an inn and his name would be Boris. They are entirely capable of those things...

Oh wait, they aren't.

Seriously, you guys are just wicked, going to such a lenghts just to make her look like a perfect human being.

I am done here.

Again.

The Unsullied have emotions and feelings.

"This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of brothels to lie with him and hold him." The blood of the dragon does not weep.

The Unsullied are free to whatever they want, and they are even given coin for them to use.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Seriously, you guys are just wicked, going to such a lenghts just to make her look like a perfect human being.

Also, if you think that I believe that Dany is perfect, then you are very mistaken.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

i dont think she is perfect, but I think she is the best ruler of all the living Kings and Queens in the books

[LordStoneheart]

Are you seriously going to put hypocrisy in the same league with rape and murder?

I'm still waiting for a response to my question about hypocrisy, if people have a problem with hypocrites then why read any of it?

No, they're worse, of course, but just as rampant in the books, so disliking any of these doesn't mean one can't read the books and enjoy them. I don't think anyone really likes hypocrisy.