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R+L=J v.53

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Being a fan of the books and now the TV show.. These threads remind me of how bad of a decision it was to basically eliminate the complexity of this mystery from the show. Jon's parentage has been one of the most discussed/debated theories by book readers.. and the revelation is one of the most anticipated moments of the series. The ToJ flashback needed to happen... as did the "Promise me, Ned" moment. The showrunners can dislike flashbacks all they want but it wouldn't have been difficult to include TWO flashbacks. So many inferior movies/shows utilize flashbacks, this was a definite loss. ShowOnlyFans will probably not even care because they were barely even wondering to begin with.

This was like in Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince when they just eliminated that massive battle/massacre. I appreciate having to make cuts but some things just should not be eliminated. Having that mystery surround Jon on the show would've been extremely beneficial for his arc... and the flashbacks would've made the random mentions of Rhaegar actually resonate in viewers minds. With how it played out it was just random name dropping that nobody (aside from BookFans) even acknowledged.

ETA: Even Saved By The Bell had flashbacks!

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Yep I definitely question a lot of the things they decided to leave out of the show. They even dumb down most of the magic aspect of the show.

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Exactly.

AGoT, chapter 39, Eddard POV:

Unless Ned is lying to himself in his own mind :shocked: there's no doubt Arthur Dayne is dead.

Well... http://fc00.devianta...ggs-d54hu0b.jpg

If that's what she looked like..... yup definitely well worth the war. I'd be storming that tower too.

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Actually I don't mind the missing flashbacks too much. True enough, it eliminates basically all foreshadowing to this theory, but I think that transforming the scenes into flashbacks would've been an extremely dangerous balancing act, if not impossible. Either the hints are too obvious, taking away all the ground for interpretation or guessing, or the clues are too faint, effectively preventing people from sensing the layer beneath.

I am not saying it's adequate that no flashbacks were included, but I hold the opinion that it is impossible to transfer the subtleties of the written word onto a screen without the loss or the weaking of said nuances.

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Yep I definitely question a lot of the things they decided to leave out of the show. They even dumb down most of the magic aspect of the show.

Agree with you on the show, but on the series, Martin himself said he was actually a "low magic, fantasy writer." He uses history as a source, as well as Faulkner. :)

Initially, he wasn't going to include actual dragons, but just have them be an aspect of Targaryen lore, and political mystique.

I think in this he uses magic and the Maesters to demonstrate the historical tensions between religion and the Age of Reason.

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Actually I don't mind the missing flashbacks too much. True enough, it eliminates basically all foreshadowing to this theory, but I think that transforming the scenes into flashbacks would've been an extremely dangerous balancing act, if not impossible. Either the hints are too obvious, taking away all the ground for interpretation or guessing, or the clues are too faint, effectively preventing people from sensing the layer beneath.

I am not saying it's adequate that no flashbacks were included, but I hold the opinion that it is impossible to transfer the subtleties of the written word onto a screen without the loss or the weaking of said nuances.

Definitely agree on the subtleties and giving away too much seeing the flashbacks visually... but at least some of the scenes could've played out... the siege... the battle w/the Kingsguard (showing HR which would've been amazing)... So many possibilities to show at least SOMETHING... vs absolute nothing. Showing Lyanna saying "Promise me" wouldn't give much up.. and I just would've loved to see the KG & Rhaegar on screen.

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Being a fan of the books and now the TV show.. These threads remind me of how bad of a decision it was to basically eliminate the complexity of this mystery from the show. Jon's parentage has been one of the most discussed/debated theories by book readers.. and the revelation is one of the most anticipated moments of the series. The ToJ flashback needed to happen... as did the "Promise me, Ned" moment. The showrunners can dislike flashbacks all they want but it wouldn't have been difficult to include TWO flashbacks. So many inferior movies/shows utilize flashbacks, this was a definite loss. ShowOnlyFans will probably not even care because they were barely even wondering to begin with.

This was like in Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince when they just eliminated that massive battle/massacre. I appreciate having to make cuts but some things just should not be eliminated. Having that mystery surround Jon on the show would've been extremely beneficial for his arc... and the flashbacks would've made the random mentions of Rhaegar actually resonate in viewers minds. With how it played out it was just random name dropping that nobody (aside from BookFans) even acknowledged.

ETA: Even Saved By The Bell had flashbacks!

:agree: This allergy to flashbacks/visions of the past is baffling. I don't even buy the assumption that scenes from the past would be too revealing in relation to the written word vs. visual imagery juxtaposition. Visual storytelling can be oneiric and cryptic enough to stir curiosity without giving away clues. It's just a matter of what and how showing specific facts and events.

My major concern is with the (lack of) build up for future revelations and plot twists. General audience need an emotional 'bond' with a character too care. How will they drop a bomb such as Jon's parentage without people reactig like 'R+L who?' :dunno: Anyway, I addressed this very concern to Bryan Cogman, in a Q&A that will be held soon online. My question doesn't get into details, so I hope it will be selected... Keeping my fingers crossed LOL

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Agree with you on the show, but on the series, Martin himself said he was actually a "low magic, fantasy writer." He uses history as a source, as well as Faulkner. :)

Initially, he wasn't going to include actual dragons, but just have them be an aspect of Targaryen lore, and political mystique.

I think in this he uses magic and the Maesters to demonstrate the historical tensions between religion and the Age of Reason.

I know a few show only fans, and they have absolutely no idea what was going on with Bran, for instance, in the first season. They really glazed over the significance of the 3EC and the dreams. And even up to now in the show the are still only showing the magic that they HAVE to show. Maybe budgetary maybe they think it will draw a larger audience without the magic. To me it feels like more of a drama than fantasy sometimes.

And to get back on topic, the same show only fans I know, have ZERO idea of r+l=j. So I will be interested to see how they play it in to the show.

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:agree: This allergy to flashbacks/visions of the past is baffling. I don't even buy the assumption that scenes from the past would be too revealing in relation to the written word vs. visual imagery juxtaposition. Visual storytelling can be oneiric and cryptic enough to stir curiosity without giving aways clues. It's just a matter of what and how showing specific facts and events.

My major concern is with the (lack of) build up for future revelations and plot twists. General audience need an emotional 'bond' with a character too care. How will they drop a bomb such as Jon's parentage without people reactig like 'R+L who?' :dunno: Anyway, I addressed this very concern to Bryan Cogman, in a Q&A that will be held soon online. My question doesn't get into details, so I hope it will be selected... Keeping my fingers crossed LOL

Lol my point exactly! We, as readers, are all wondering and speculating "Does R+L = J???". If it does come to pass.... the ShowFans only mystery would be J = Who the hell are these 2 people? Oh, yeah them. That's cool.

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:agree: This allergy to flashbacks/visions of the past is baffling. I don't even buy the assumption that scenes from the past would be too revealing in relation to the written word vs. visual imagery juxtaposition. Visual storytelling can be oneiric and cryptic enough to stir curiosity without giving aways clues. It's just a matter of what and how showing specific facts and events.

My major concern is with the (lack of) build up for future revelations and plot twists. General audience need an emotional 'bond' with a character too care. How will they drop a bomb such as Jon's parentage without people reactig like 'R+L who?' :dunno: Anyway, I addressed this very concern to Bryan Cogman, in a Q&A that will be held soon online. My question doesn't get into details, so I hope it will be selected... Keeping my fingers crossed LOL

:agree: At this point, I am sure the vast majority of the Unsullied still assume that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyannarrisoa. I wonder if the show will use Barristan to provide the necessary exposition about R + L that the books provide in so many different places.

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I know a few show only fans, and they have absolutely no idea what was going on with Bran, for instance, in the first season. They really glazed over the significance of the 3EC and the dreams. And even up to now in the show the are still only showing the magic that they HAVE to show. Maybe budgetary maybe they think it will draw a larger audience without the magic. To me it feels like more of a drama than fantasy sometimes.

And to get back on topic, the same show only fans I know, have ZERO idea of r+l=j. So I will be interested to see how they play it in to the show.

Yep, same happened to me. A friend of mine is very into the show and big supporter of the 'Targaryens'. No books reading, no web surfing for info though. At the end of the third season he was all hyped about Daenerys and how cool the dragon lords are. I asked him what he thought about Rhaegar then. His reply: 'Who?' :worried:

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:agree: At this point, I am sure the vast majority of the Unsullied still assume that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyannarrisoa. I wonder if the show will use Barristan to provide the necessary exposition about R + L that the books provide in so many different places.

LOL

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Being a fan of the books and now the TV show.. These threads remind me of how bad of a decision it was to basically eliminate the complexity of this mystery from the show. Jon's parentage has been one of the most discussed/debated theories by book readers.. and the revelation is one of the most anticipated moments of the series. The ToJ flashback needed to happen... as did the "Promise me, Ned" moment. The showrunners can dislike flashbacks all they want but it wouldn't have been difficult to include TWO flashbacks. So many inferior movies/shows utilize flashbacks, this was a definite loss. ShowOnlyFans will probably not even care because they were barely even wondering to begin with.

This was like in Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince when they just eliminated that massive battle/massacre. I appreciate having to make cuts but some things just should not be eliminated. Having that mystery surround Jon on the show would've been extremely beneficial for his arc... and the flashbacks would've made the random mentions of Rhaegar actually resonate in viewers minds. With how it played out it was just random name dropping that nobody (aside from BookFans) even acknowledged.

ETA: Even Saved By The Bell had flashbacks!

Makes me wonder if the unsullied even knows who Rhaegar is?

I think he was only mentioned once in the first season and now in the third

Do they know he was the heir and Dany's older brother? do they remember his kidnap of Lyanna? do they know who Lyanna was?

JFC, they totally eliminated Ned's conflict that haunted his life until the end. At least making a woman's voice say the "promise me, Ned" resonate while he was feverish before waking up or something. They should give some hints, but we get nothing. Weird

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:agree: At this point, I am sure the vast majority of the Unsullied still assume that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyannarrisoa. I wonder if the show will use Barristan to provide the necessary exposition about R + L that the books provide in so many different places.

I'm not even sure if they remember who Lyanna is

She was mentioned first season in one of the first episodes

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I'm not even sure if they remember who Lyanna is

She was mentioned first season in one of the first episodes

Right? I have seen almost every episode 2x, yet I can't seem to recall Lyanna being mentioned after the second episode of the first season.

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Right? I have seen almost every episode 2x, yet I can't seem to recall Lyanna being mentioned after the second episode of the first season.

In episode 4 or 5 or so - Cersei asks Robert what she was like.

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In episode 4 or 5 or so - Cersei asks Robert what she was like.

Totally forgot about that scene (even though I watched it again about 3 weeks ago!). :bang:

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They shouldn't have changed that scene with Ned and Arya, when he is talking about needle and mentioned Lyanna and how Arya is like her etc

I don't know, thinking about these little important details makes me hate the show

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They shouldn't have changed that scene with Ned and Arya, when he is talking about needle and mentioned Lyanna and how Arya is like her etc

I don't know, thinking about these little important details makes me hate the show

One of the episodes ends with Ned watching Arya's lesson with Syrio and his expression suddenly becomes very worried. I wondered whether he might have been reminded of Lyanna at that moment but, unfortunately, there was no elaboration on it :-(

ETA: I've only started watching the show. Has Dany had the HotU vision? That would be a good spot for some exposition of R+L

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One of the episodes ends with Ned watching Arya's lesson with Syrio and his expression suddenly becomes very worried. I wondered whether he might have been reminded of Lyanna at that moment but, unfortunately, there was no elaboration on it :-(

ETA: I've only started watching the show. Has Dany had the HotU vision? That would be a good spot for some exposition of R+L

The HotU was massively changed. We got visions, but none of those in the books. The closest thing is a black-haired Rhaego...

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