Bothersome Inconsistencies/Plot Holes

[Dinenziliel]

I've looked at quite a few posts/topics and have not seen these mentioned.

In AGoT, the 1st Eddard chapter, Ned and Robert are in the tombs. Ned is thinking back on his brother's and father's deaths. It says--and Ned is a reliable narrator who would definitely know the truth of the matter--that King Aerys had Brandon strangled and that Rickard was forced to watch. This is somewhat at odds with how their deaths are described in all other accounts: Brandon came to save his father who was hanging above a fire in his armor, cooking to death, with Brandon strangling himself trying to save him. In the 1st Eddard chapter account, it sounds like Aerys had Brandon restrained while someone strangled him and that Eddard was simply restrained and forced to watch. For such spectacular deaths--ones that are referred to throughout the books as particularly heinous, this mild account is disturbing to me.

The second thing that bothers me is, why was Benjen at the Winterfell feast for Robert? (And he did get there awfully fast from the Wall, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief in matters of time and space.) He's called "Lord Benjen," too. It is said many times throughout all the books how all allegiances, honors, history, relationships, etc., are wiped clear when one is a member of the Night's Watch. If all one knew about the Night's Watch was from Eddard 1 and Jon 1 (maybe also the chapters in between?), one would have a much different impression of the Night's Watch. Perhaps GRRM evolved his take on NW after writing these chapters?

I am hoping someone can resolve these for me. I've finished all the books so far and have found myself more and more often rationalizing little gaffes and things that take me out of the story (e.g., a vendor in the Meereense fighting pits sounding like a Bronx guy selling peanuts at Yankee Stadium--"Getcha ???? right here"). When I began re-reading AGoT, these two things formed a sizable straw, and I'd like to stay happy on this camel's back I've been riding for the past 3 months.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The second thing that bothers me is, why was Benjen at the Winterfell feast for Robert? (And he did get there awfully fast from the Wall, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief in matters of time and space.) He's called "Lord Benjen," too. It is said many times throughout all the books how all allegiances, honors, history, relationships, etc., are wiped clear when one is a member of the Night's Watch. If all one knew about the Night's Watch was from Eddard 1 and Jon 1 (maybe also the chapters in between?), one would have a much different impression of the Night's Watch. Perhaps GRRM evolved his take on NW after writing these chapters?

Benjen is allowed to visit his family because he wasn't deserting. Mormont would've known that there wasno way Benjen would break his oath and being at Winterfell gave him an opportunity to speak with the King, not that Robert would've listened. Benjen didn't necessarily reach Winterfell that fast, we just know he did it in under a month, which seems like plenty of time for a lone rider to me.

[JanAgro]

AS First Ranger Benjen is trusted a lot more that the average NW Brother..LC Mormont probably sent him to WF to recuit men from the kings party and ask the king for more men.As for calling him a lord thats probably just because hes in his brothers castle.Would you insult the Lord of winterfell by not calling his brother a lord?

eta nija'd

[Filleted Man]

Rickard still had to watch his son being strangled. It is a bit weird description I guess, but true.

As to the second question, I'm no expert, but I think Benjen was bringing recruits to the wall, and being a stark he was given a bit of leniency and allowed to visit Winterfell. All titles aren't discarded. Knights are still Referred to be their proper title, and nobles are almost always given somewhat preferential treatment. Especially if they are both a Stark, longtime allies of the watch, and First Ranger.

[Dinenziliel]

I am SO glad I brought this up b/c everyone has offered a completely plausible reason for Benjen being at the feast. Ahh . . . perhaps I am wanting ASoIaF to be a perfect world and am being picky--or dim--about things.

Thanks for resolving that 2nd item.

Now, what about the 1st? For Ned to recall such a horrendous event--especially involving his own brother's and father's deaths--in such a prosaic, pestrian way--is still nagging at me. Anyone else feel the same? Or, does anyone else have a similar concern with something else? I'm sure I'm going to notice other things as I re-read the books, and would like to have them ironed out beforehand.

[Ser Leftwich]

Since Ned was not there to see the executions, he would not know the very specifics.

Anyone that was there to see Rickard and Brandon and could convey the horrific details would probably not want to remind Ned that they had served Aerys and stood by while Rickard and Brandon died.

We also do not know who was present for the actual deaths, with the exceptions of Jaime, some other KG members. Varys, Pycelle, and Merryweather (the Hand at the time) are likely candidates for persons present.

[Mad Monkey]

This is gonna freak you out like it did me -- Renly's eye color changes from green to blue at some point. Early onset cataracts? Possession by Others? Warg?

[Leif]

This is gonna freak you out like it did me -- Renly's eye color changes from green to blue at some point. Early onset cataracts? Possession by Others? Warg?

All of the above?

[Kittykatknits]

This is gonna freak you out like it did me -- Renly's eye color changes from green to blue at some point. Early onset cataracts? Possession by Others? Warg?

Mistake by Martin that he has publicly acknowledged.

[Lord Reaver]

Addressing your 1. point: Ned is a cold bastard. In more ways than one. It might also be the author wanting to 'ramp up' the heinous factor of it as the books go along, or even as you said that he hadn't quite decided exactly how that went down at the point he wrote Ned's recollection of it.

[rystine]

Ned's account of his brother and father's death is technically accurate. As others have pointed out, whether or not he knew the exact details, it's not likely something that he would want to dwell on.

The second point has been well answered. LC Mormont trusted Benjen to return and that was a rare opportunity to get a respected member of the NW an audience with the king.

As far as plot holes go, there is only one that really sticks out to me.

When Ned and Robert are discussing who to name as Warden of the East, Robert tells Ned that he is giving the position to Jaime. Ned protests the choice and eventually says something along the lines of how Jaime would eventually inherit the Wardenship of the West, giving him control of half the armies in Westeros. But obviously as a KG, Jaime can't inherit.

It's a minor point, that I actually believe has been addressed before. But still, it's something that I notice on each reread.

[Blede]

It's because the Warden titles are military ranks, not land titles (Robert Arryn would still be Lord of the Eyrie and Lord Paramount of the Vale), so Kinsguards can inherit them.

[mindchap]

Ned's account of his brother and father's death is technically accurate. As others have pointed out, whether or not he knew the exact details, it's not likely something that he would want to dwell on.

The second point has been well answered. LC Mormont trusted Benjen to return and that was a rare opportunity to get a respected member of the NW an audience with the king.

As far as plot holes go, there is only one that really sticks out to me.

When Ned and Robert are discussing who to name as Warden of the East, Robert tells Ned that he is giving the position to Jaime. Ned protests the choice and eventually says something along the lines of how Jaime would eventually inherit the Wardenship of the West, giving him control of half the armies in Westeros. But obviously as a KG, Jaime can't inherit.

It's a minor point, that I actually believe has been addressed before. But still, it's something that I notice on each reread.

It's because the Warden titles are military ranks, not land titles, so Kinsguards can inherit them.

This, and I think Ned isn't so much worrying that Jamie will have too much power, but that it would give the Lannisters that much power.

And that would pretty much give Tywin control of most of the lands between Ned(North) and KL

[Dinenziliel]

When Ned and Robert are discussing who to name as Warden of the East, Robert tells Ned that he is giving the position to Jaime. Ned protests the choice and eventually says something along the lines of how Jaime would eventually inherit the Wardenship of the West, giving him control of half the armies in Westeros. But obviously as a KG, Jaime can't inherit.

Has anyone really answered this? Sounds like a very good point to me, and a true inconsistency/gaffe.

Wouldn't it be terrific if GRRM would ask a few of us to proof his next 2 books? Imagine the confidentiality ceremony to insure our silence! There are a few typos in ADwD--signs that he & his people may have been sleep deprived or worn out.

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

Stephen King had a woman with no legs fall to her knees, once, and after that I'll forgive a lot. Thus far in this thread, everything is explainable within the story. Except the eye color thing. That, like the sex of a horse changing, is simply a whoops, aw shoot. Oh well.

[Frozentree]

This is gonna freak you out like it did me -- Renly's eye color changes from green to blue at some point. Early onset cataracts? Possession by Others? Warg?

Bad lighting I guess

[Kahl Trollo]

For Benjen, the King is about to visit Winterfell, Benjen's home. What better opportunity for the watch to solicit aid from the King, and who better to send for it?

I always looked upon it as Benjen being a liason to Winterfell and was doing his duty - that his visits (and there would have been several by Jon's familiarity with him and the Watch) made for the occassional homecoming.

[EricEmpire94]

The second thing that bothers me is, why was Benjen at the Winterfell feast for Robert? (And he did get there awfully fast from the Wall, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief in matters of time and space.) He's called "Lord Benjen," too. It is said many times throughout all the books how all allegiances, honors, history, relationships, etc., are wiped clear when one is a member of the Night's Watch. If all one knew about the Night's Watch was from Eddard 1 and Jon 1 (maybe also the chapters in between?), one would have a much different impression of the Night's Watch. Perhaps GRRM evolved his take on NW after writing these chapters?

I always imagined it being the fact that he's either

A. Still of noble birth. Knights are still referred to as Ser, so perhaps they refer to nobility as Lord still.

Or better yet,

B. his rank as First Ranger. Perhaps that includes being called Lord, after all it is Lord Steward Bowen Marsh.

[fireandbl00d]

Same with the Jeyne's hips debacle, most are just innocent mistakes which I can forgive due to the vast amount of knowledge Martin must be trying to remember.

[RumHam]

I think you're allowed to leave the Nights Watch for a visit home, provided you came there voluntarily and your home is close enough that the trip won't take like a year. Mormont says something about not letting Jon visit Bran at Winterfell yet.