R+L=J v.54

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

You're talking about Robb's will? No it's not there.

[MtnLion]

@SFDanny I will have to accept what you say for Mya Stone’s age. The Wiki gave her birth year as 281, and that was solid enough to work with. (Yeah, I have found outright untruths in the Wiki, too.)

@corbon I disagree about Robert knowing where the crypts were, or even that Lyanna was in the crypts before A Game of Thrones.

What I see is that Lyanna does not say anything about Robert at Harrenhal, nor does Robert say anything about Lyanna. It is customary to at least introduce the prospects before the actual betrothals. While this is not an exclusive practice, there are plenty of examples. In the case of the Storm Lord, it would be very proper to get his approval before making the betrothal.

I think that it makes sense for Mya to have been born before Harrenhal, because Robert tired of her mother, but still visited the girl, taking Ned with him. How long it takes Robert to lose interest in a woman could be a very short period. The trips to visit the young Mya are noticeable to Ned.

Harrenhal’s Tourney could have been simply an announcement sent out, perhaps 3 weeks to a month before the affair. They could have been planning the tourney for a long time, to celebrate the coming of spring. When the snows started melting, and the plants began to grow again, they assumed that it was springtime. (Yes, I know that winters last for years, but this must happen early in the year, as you know.) So, we see Harrenhal sending out ravens to everyone inviting them to a great tourney to celebrate the passing of winter, in the year of the false spring (281AL). Brandon and Rickard die in 281AL.

During the tourney, it is possible that Brandon, on behalf of Rickard (or even perhaps Rickard himself), approaches Robert and suggests Lyanna as a match. Robert accepts, and arrangements are made. The formal announcement can be made at a later date, and we know that it was at Winterfell that it was made. I do not see Ned travelling to Winterfell before the tourney, it makes the utmost sense that he travelled from the Vale directly to Harrenhal to attend the tourney. Nor, do I think that Robert has any motive to go to Winterfell with Ned, before his coronation. But, Robert and Ned travelling together to Harrenhal to attend the tourney is sensible.

The questions that come to mind:

How soon after the tourney did the snows resume? If they do not resume immediately after the tourney then the noteworthiness of the return trips drops. But, it is not clear that Ned or Robert returned to the Vale immediately. It actually seems likely that Ned returned to Winterfell to visit with his father and siblings, and though it may have been intended to be a short visit, a snowstorm could extend it.

With the coming of spring did Robert need to return to Storm’s End for any duties, as Lord? With accepting Rickard’s proposal, it is likely that he had to see to arrangements to receiving Lady Lyanna as his bride. Quite a good reason to return to Storm’s End following Harrenhal’s Tourney, where he had accepted the offer. Again, no formal announcement need have been made, at this point.

Did Ned return to Winterfell with Lyanna, Brandon, and Benjen (possibly Rickard)? This seems very likely. We know that Catelyn’s and Brandon’s betrothal are not announced for several months, yet. It may be a safe assumption that Lyanna’s and Robert’s betrothal would be announced at the same time. When Catelyn’s betrothal is announced, Littlefinger challenges immediately.

When did Catelyn and Brandon first meet? The tone of the memories of the duel and immediately afterward suggest a familiarity on both sides. The time between the duel and Brandon riding for King’s Landing need to match the quality of being a short time. We know that the time between was most likely more than a fortnight, while Littlefinger recovered enough to be borne away.

There seems to be a current trend for assuming that Lyanna needed to be schooled outside of Winterfell. We do know that she would have worn a sword if Rickard had not forbade it. We know that she secretly tilted at rings. We have no accounts that suggest that Lyanna was ever unacceptable as she was, and none that place her outside of Winterfell, except for at Harrenhal. This does place some pressure on where Lyanna eloped from. However, we know that Brandon’s wedding at Riverrun was imminent when Brandon received word, let’s assume, about Rhaegar.

It occurs to me that there is a reason that Benjen is missing from the story. It may have Benjen escorting Lyanna to Riverrun, or even to Storm’s End, when Lyanna eloped. If Brandon knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar had married, would he demand the prince’s life to allow Lyanna to marry Robert and fulfill the betrothal. (I have always assumed that Benjen did not know of Jon’s true identity or legitimacy, but it seems very possible, now.)

As we agree that there are at least nine months (likely a bit more) between Harrenhal’s tourney and Brandon’s ride for King’s Landing, and that it is winter during at least a portion of that time, our only rough spots come down to:

Robert’s movements and location during that time

Ned’s movements and location during that time

Lyanna’s movements and location during that time

The timing of Lyanna’s betrothal announcement

And, do you disagree that Brandon’s betrothal announcement happened less than a month before his ride to King’s Landing?

ETA: fix typo, then fix editor carp.

[Alia of the knife]

I see your point. It is certainly possible that Edric Dayne's claim that Ned and Ashara were in love was the result of gossip and/or a cover story to explain Ashara's suicide. However, I would disagree with you that these possibilities are more likely than the alternative; that Ned and Ashara really were in love.

I would also disagree with you that the rumour that Wylla being Jon's mother is incompatable with the claim that Ned and Ashara were in love. A man can be in love with a woman and still father a child with another woman (look at Patriots QB Tom Brady ;) ).

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what role, if any, Ashara Dayne had in this saga. I think she is destined to play more than a red herring for the identity of Jon's mother (at least I hope so!).

You forgot to mention Ben Rapistberger. uh, I mean Ben Roethlisberger. I think there is a baby somewhere there too.

[WildBlood]

You forgot to mention Ben Rapistberger. uh, I mean Ben Roethlisberger. I think there is a baby somewhere there too.

Only with his wife

[MtnLion]

@corbon One thing that has been troubling me about the timeline is that Rhaegar knighted Gregor, and it must have been before he eloped with Lyanna. There is some significance here, but I am failing to see it.

[325504503]

Is it possible that something is left in Lyann's grave that will show Jon's parentage? Something about Jon's dream regarding the crypts and being called down there may be a clue there is something down there he is meant to discover.

[Jon Icefyre]

Is it possible that something is left in Lyanna's grave that will show Jon's parentage? Something about Jon's dream regarding the crypts and being called down there may be a clue there is something down there he is meant to discover.

Ya, a lot of ppl in fact believe there's something down there like a note from his parents with Rhaegar's Targaryen seal, or a documentation of the marriage with the same seal. Some ppl even think there might be a dragon egg, which IMO is unlikely due to the fact that from a GRRM writing stance even if the dragon were to hatch for Jon, a baby dragon still wouldn't be much help for him in the upcoming war, so what would really be the point? Though I'll still say it's possible, also there might be something else like Rhaegar's harp or Lyanna's favorite dress, and there seems to be a suggestion in the books that there might possibly be some old spirits that endure in the crypts.

Jon could possibly have some sort of supernatural/spiritual encounter with Lyanna, again I'm not banking on it, but I won't rule it out either. IMO Jon being able to have an encounter(if he even has one) with Lyanna is much more likely than him having one with Rhaegar, just because the question of who is mother is has been a theme played over in Jon's head throughout the series, so I could see GRRM finally giving Jon a peace of mind on that front. I admit it would be a little 'fairytaily', but it also seems somewhat necessary in order to get Jon to truly accept and embrace both his Stark and Targaryen parents/side when and if he finds out R+L=J. But that's just my opinion, I'm sure plenty disagree lol.

[Alia of the knife]

@corbon One thing that has been troubling me about the timeline is that Rhaegar knighted Gregor, and it must have been before he eloped with Lyanna. There is some significance here, but I am failing to see it.

Something that has always bothered me as well, but not only when, but why unless it's more of Martins irony.

Only with his wife

:P

Is it possible that something is left in Lyann's grave that will show Jon's parentage? Something about Jon's dream regarding the crypts and being called down there may be a clue there is something down there he is meant to discover.

Many of us believe this, but we're not sure what it could be. We've spoken of:

- A sword

- A ruby

- A Targaryen marriage cloak that may have been used as the shroud for her bones.

- A dragons egg.

- A note with perhaps the Kings seal for legitimization and approval of any marriage that perhaps Rhaegar rested from Aerys for coming back and leading the Kings forces.

- A harp

- A ring.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Ya, a lot of ppl in fact believe there's something down there like a note from his parents with Rhaegar's Targaryen seal, or a documentation of the marriage with the same seal. Some ppl even think there might be a dragon egg, which IMO is unlikely due to the fact that from a GRRM writing stance even if the dragon were to hatch for Jon, a baby dragon still wouldn't be much help for him in the upcoming war, so what would really be the point? Though I'll still say it's possible, also there might be something else like Rhaegar's harp or Lyanna's favorite dress, and there seems to be a suggestion in the books that there might possibly be some old spirits that endure in the crypts.

Jon could possibly have some sort of supernatural/spiritual encounter with Lyanna, again I'm not banking on it, but I won't rule it out either. IMO Jon being able to have an encounter(if he even has one) with Lyanna is much more likely than him having one with Rhaegar, just because the question of who is mother is has been a theme played over in Jon's head throughout the series, so I could see GRRM finally giving Jon a peace of mind on that front. I admit it would be a little 'fairytaily', but it also seems somewhat necessary in order to get Jon to truly accept and embrace both his Stark and Targaryen parents/side when and if he finds out R+L=J.

I don't think the point, for the people who believe/hope there's an egg in the crypt is for it to hatch.

It refers to the old tradition of gifting an egg to the baby at birth, nothing else.

There's three dragons in the game already, that's enough. :)

[hodor stark]

:agree: i think its an egg but maybe a blue and red egg to represent ice and fire because if R+L= J then he is the song of ice and fire

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't think the point, for the people who believe/hope there's an egg in the crypt is for it to hatch.

It refers to the old tradition of gifting an egg to the baby at birth, nothing else.

There's three dragons in the game already, that's enough. :)

Ya no I get that but still, I find it odd that Rhaegar would just randomly have a dragon egg when there's no mention or indication that the Targs still had any after the tragedy of Summerhal is there, I might be completely wrong on that front? Although I will say if anyone were to find away to procure one it would probably be Rhaegar due to his interest in the whole dagons and TPTWP ordeal lol. Also if he really did have a dragon egg I would think that he would've given the egg to his firstborn son Aegon, wouldn't he?

[SFDanny]

@SFDanny I will have to accept what you say for Mya Stone’s age. The Wiki gave her birth year as 281, and that was solid enough to work with. (Yeah, I have found outright untruths in the Wiki, too.)

No problem. I had hoped you had some more information, but at this point I will just have to keep Mya's age in the "still up in the air" category - could be she was born in 280 or 281. Check back in later.

[Maxpey]

You forgot to mention Ben Rapistberger. uh, I mean Ben Roethlisberger. I think there is a baby somewhere there too.

I am not sure if Rapersberger, I mean Roethlisberger, has any children. ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I am not sure if Rapersberger, I mean Roethlisberger, has any children. ;)

Apparently there is. He and his wife had a child. :wideeyed:

[Maxpey]

Apparently there is. He and his wife had a child. :wideeyed:

Great. More Rapers . . . I mean, Roethlisbergers to populate the world. For some reason, "Idiocracy" comes to my mind. :bang:

[Alia of the knife]

Great. More Rapers . . . I mean, Roethlisbergers to populate the world. For some reason, "Idiocracy" comes to my mind. :bang:

LOL, agreed. :)

[Ygrain]

Continuing the re-read:

The parallel between Sansa and Lyanna pleading in the context of murdered Aegon has been brought up many times, but there is even wider context that I think is important. Also, it is not in the very chapter where Lady is killed (my memory played a trick on me here) but in a later one, where Catelyn informs him about the attempt on Bran's life, and Ned wonders why Tyrion should want Bran dead when the boy never did any harm. LF then suggests a broader scheme and then Ned starts doubting Robert, remembering the assassins sent after Dany and the red ruin of Aegon's skull, and the way Robert turned away when Sansa pleaded, like Lyanna had. Finally, Ned remembers Mycah's death and that the king didn't say a word to that.

All in all, we have here half a page filled with accounts of murders or attempted murders of children and Robert's mercilessness and lack of concern over the deaths of innocent. The implication is almost unsubtle, and I totally fail to see how in this context, anyone can doubt what Lyanna pleaded for. The proposed alternatives that she wished to be buried at Winterfell or that she didn't want anyone to find out that she eloped do not fit in the slightest.

[Jon Icefyre]

Continuing the re-read:

The parallel between Sansa and Lyanna pleading in the context of murdered Aegon has been brought up many times, but there is even wider context that I think is important. Also, it is not in the very chapter where Lady is killed (my memory played a trick on me here) but in a later one, where Catelyn informs him about the attempt on Bran's life, and Ned wonders why Tyrion should want Bran dead when the boy never did any harm. LF then suggests a broader scheme and then Ned starts doubting Robert, remembering the assassins sent after Dany and the red ruin of Aegon's skull, and the way Robert turned away when Sansa pleaded, like Lyanna had. Finally, Ned remembers Mycah's death and that the king didn't say a word to that.

All in all, we have here half a page filled with accounts of murders or attempted murders of children and Robert's mercilessness and lack of concern over the deaths of innocent. The implication is almost unsubtle, and I totally fail to see how in this context, anyone can doubt what Lyanna pleaded for. The proposed alternatives that she wished to be buried at Winterfell or that she didn't want anyone to find out that she eloped do not fit in the slightest.

Wow this is an absolutely brilliant analysis of the situation. :bowdown:

I completely agree it's pretty clear that GRRM uses Ned's flashbacks of how Robert had handled in Dany's case even pushed for the death of children in the past, to then give the readers a hint that Lyanna was pleading with Ned to protect her child(Jon) from Robert....

[Ygrain]

Thank you :-)

Hmm... perhaps I might perform my usual request for the quote? :-)

[Jon Icefyre]

Thank you :-)

Hmm... perhaps I might perform my usual request for the quote? :-)

Haha your welcome and here are some examples of Ned thinking about the 'promises' flashbacks:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

"I will," Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

"Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned." {said Robert.}

"I promise." "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's voice echoed.

Notice in one of the quotes Ned says, 'vows' in addition to the, "promises he made to Lyanna and the price he'd paid to keep them" not just simply a 'promise' or the price he'd paid to keep 'it'.....The fact that Ned's using plural forms to describe whatever he agreed to do for Lyanna suggests that she asked him to do more than one thing, which means she probably asked Ned to protect Jon from Robert as well as take her bones back to the crypts of Winterfell so she could rest beside her father and brother who both died over her, along with possibly a few other things....