Is Satin a spy?

[Winter's Knight]

I think the easier answer is that he was a whore in Oldtown who became a high lord's lover/bedwarmer who tired of him, perhaps when Satin got too old, but was not cruel enough to kill him-which'd explain the literary skills and dancing.

OT a friend mentioned to me that she thinks Satin might be growing a beard because it was something he'd never have been allowed to do at his old job for fear that it'd make him look older.

[Lummel]

I think the easier answer is that he was a whore in Oldtown who became a high lord's lover/bedwarmer who tired of him, perhaps when Satin got too old, but was not cruel enough to kill him-which'd explain the literary skills and dancing.

OT a friend mentioned to me that she thinks Satin might be growing a beard because it was something he'd never have been allowed to do at his old job for fear that it'd make him look older.

Sounds reasonable.

The big problem with any of the spy up at the Wall theories is that there isn't any point. The place is an honourable prison colony with no way out that doesn't involve dying and very limited freedom of movement. It is a waste of spies to have one up at the Wall - plus once they swear the oath they are stuck up there. It doesn't really matter what treasonous rumblings there are in teh night's watch because what's said at the Wall, stays at the Wall.

[Ragnorak]

Sounds reasonable.

The big problem with any of the spy up at the Wall theories is that there isn't any point. The place is an honourable prison colony with no way out that doesn't involve dying and very limited freedom of movement. It is a waste of spies to have one up at the Wall - plus once they swear the oath they are stuck up there. It doesn't really matter what treasonous rumblings there are in teh night's watch because what's said at the Wall, stays at the Wall.

I think it actually makes sense to have an informant at the Wall. Not a spy network and it doesn't require a high placed officer as one would need in a King's court or a lord's household. There is a certain value to the treasonous rumblings of the recently banished in that they are likely to speak more openly about their recent past-- the same way there's a value to the rumblings of a mobster in prison for life with regard to his organized crime network. The Watch is the closet where skeletons get sent to be forgotten. A Waymar Royce will let slip things about House Royce, a Sam may let slip things about House Tarly.

In WK's example you might learn the name of the lord that kept Satin and have the type of intel Littlefinger used with Lyn Corbray. Could Ulmer's stories have helped identify or find the White Fawn? Or you might learn that Lord Rowan of Goldengrove's daughter is not a maid.

Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father’s eye she named it rape, so here he is.

The Wall is overlooked in much the same way the smallfolk in Kings Landing get overlooked by the high lords. Shae spouts "secrets" to Tyrion that are common knowledge to every serving girl in the Red Keep.

The Wall doesn't require a James Bond. The information could be bought as repeated gossip from a Hot Pie at the cost of finding his mother a job in a slightly nicer kitchen. I don't see someone agreeing to be sent to the Wall as a spy or it being worth trying to send someone there to spy, but there are plenty of people already there who would pass along gossip at bargain smallfolk rates. Why not spend the coppers?

[Winter's Knight]

But how would said information be relayed?

Take Satin for instance: assuming he was being kept by a high lord who likes to fuck young boys, how would you get that information out of him? If he mentions it to someone else on the Wall, how would he pass on that information? And why would they, when to the average brother, coppers are meaningless?

[complexphoenix]

I always considered Alliser Thorne as Varys spy. He has connections in KL. In my eyes every character from brothel is connected to LF

I am not sure that Satin is LF's spy or spy at all but I am pretty convinced that Mel warns Jon about Satin

There are millions of people in the 7K and thousands upon thousands of whores. Supposing that every whore belongs to LF is such a ridiculous notion I don't even know what to do but laugh. Even in KL, plenty of whores are outside LF's orbit; Chataya and her girls clearly are not his, for example.

[Buried Treasure]

I agree a few bribes are all that would necessary to get any gossip or intel from the Wall. Varys likely pays men on trading ships for snippets of information they pick up at the ports on their routes. Its a simple enough system as the information gatherers would be able bring it right to him in KL.

[Queen Alienor]

I really do want Satin to be a good guy, although I realize he has an interesting history at least. But I think people are overestimating LF. He doesn't know everything, even though he himself may believe so. He pretty sure doesn't know about fAegon or Robb's will. I could see Satin being Varys spy, maybe even a spy of the citadel, even though the latter one leaves the question why the citadel would need a spy if they could simply ask Maester Aemon for a report.

[Ragnorak]

But how would said information be relayed?

Take Satin for instance: assuming he was being kept by a high lord who likes to fuck young boys, how would you get that information out of him? If he mentions it to someone else on the Wall, how would he pass on that information? And why would they, when to the average brother, coppers are meaningless?

For clarity, I don't think Satin is a spy. An informant, assuming someone who could not write which is more likely, would require a spy at a neighboring castle like Winterfell, Karhold or the Last Stand who made visits to Castle Black to relay the information-- food deliveries, returning ravens, something routine and mundane. This doesn't have to be even close to the real time information a Varys gets from his little birds. I would think it more likely that an informant would be someone at Eastwatch who could just pass the information verbally to someone on a ship that stopped there, preferably someone who had reason to make the rounds to Shadow Tower and Castle Black. We see the Tyroshi captain of Storm Dancer relay Cat's arrival to Varys so we know this is a component of his network. It is also possible a Varys could just pay sailors for gossip.

The "why" could be family. Everyone leaves someone behind. It could be brothel money for Mole's Town. I agree with Lummel's assessment as far as the value of Lord Commander Mormont's plans, letters, official appointments, etc. There is no value in spying on the "powerful" at the Wall the way one would be interested in any other House. The institution is irrelevant, but there are some secrets the Seven Kingdoms send up there to die that can be discovered before the grave is filled in.

[Lummel]

If you were interested in what people might let slip you could achieve the same result as employing a spy by sending somebody up to Eastwatch to gossip on a trading ship every once in a while. It would be easier to get information on the noble houses by having one of their servants report to you than by having a man up on the Wall.

And any information up on the Wall about the rest of the seven kingdoms is going to be much less up to date than that which could be obtained down away from the Wall.

[Ice Turtle]

Even if LF and Varys didn't have spies and informants there before it would be strange if that was true after:

1, Stannis showed up

2, Jon become only living son of Ned Stark. Now he is a bastard and a man of the watch,but Stannis offered him Winterfell, Robb named him heir in his will and even Cersei considered him threat, so it must have occurred to them that Jon may become threat especially in combination with Stannis wows or not.

Back to Satin, even if he wasn't spy from the beginning he could have became one later due some promise (maybe he had a family member still in a brothel) or threat,especially if he worked for someone as a spy in the past

[Tony Stark of Winterfell]

Time to call in whoresbane

[Morrigen]

I thought Thorne was working with Tywin. Which doesn't rule out working with Varys, too.

He could be hedging his bets here, hoping working with multiple players gains him some sort of advantage.

If Littlefinger wanted to keep an eye on/spy on Jon, why didn't he send Satin, or some other spy, to the Wall whilst Jon was in training.

Who says he didn't??

I don't see LF having any interest in the Wall or beyond the Wall at all. These are places that have never had an impact on power and the Iron Throne since Aegon's Landing. Why would LF care at all about the land of snarks and grumpkins? I just don't see it.

Now I suppose that Satin could have been an agent for somebody else who did give a damn about the Wall. Perhaps Marsh or Oldtown or somebody else. OTOH, all of that seems a stretch.

Information is power, and it doesn't matter who is looking for it. LF or Varys or anyone else wanting to keep an eye on things to gain advantage or use it against someone could send spies anywhere they like. Remember that both LF and Varys had spies in Winterfell? Both knew Catelyn left Winterfell before she arrived in KL, so they both had agents there. True, the wall is much more provincial, but information leaked there could influence events anywhere in Westeros, as men of the NW hail from all corners of the seven kingdoms. I am not saying Satin is LF's, but he is odd, for sure.

Satin goes north to say his vows before a heart tree despite telling Jon that he worships the seven. He does not have any reason for this and it makes me wonder if he wanted to see what was beyond the wall? Was he bade to go there?

A whore from Oldtown would likely be very solicitous of others and attuned to their needs/wants. He's not stupid so we know he'd be grateful for the fact that Jon Snow made him his personal steward. Satin also is acutely aware of the cold, so wouldn't he likely keep the LC's room blazing warm? Is he distracted? Spending time elsewhere?

Castle Black has an library/archive. Perhaps a man with "some reading ability" is spending some time there. It would not doubt me that CB contains some manuscripts that others, including the Citadel, do not own copies. Who knows what can be found there. Does anyone recall how close the LC quarters are to its entrance?

[Ours if the Fury]

For all we know little finger may know about the (R+L=J) theory or assumption and is keeping tabs on him... and so if he does finally figure it out he can be removed hence satin...

[Ragnorak]

If you were interested in what people might let slip you could achieve the same result as employing a spy by sending somebody up to Eastwatch to gossip on a trading ship every once in a while. It would be easier to get information on the noble houses by having one of their servants report to you than by having a man up on the Wall.

And any information up on the Wall about the rest of the seven kingdoms is going to be much less up to date than that which could be obtained down away from the Wall.

I don't think there's all that much daylight between us on this. I agree the Wall is meaningless to gather intel on as an institution and a very poor real time intel place-- just not completely useless for intel.

There is old dirt and there are old secrets. Varys has his own Aegon plan that stretches quite far back. Doran has his Viserys plan that goes back to the dawn of Robert's reign. Ned has been hiding Jon's parentage for years. Men like Bloodraven have been sent to the Wall. Aemon is at the Wall. Varys has been Spy Master for some twenty years. He has the espionage budget from the crown and a shadow budget from his own crime syndicate with Illyrio. I don't think a Littlefinger cares about the Wall but a Varys is a long term player and with all that time I don't think it is impossible that he's bothered to get an informant there. Hardly a place to waste little birds or a lordship bribe on, but what does it cost to arrange a smallfolk marriage for a convicted poacher's sister or daughter or get someone's son or little brother a job at a mill? I'd be surprised if Littlefinger or Qyburn had a spy at the Wall but not Varys. I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't either.

[Tyrus Martell]

It's important to note Satin was found in a dungeon in Gulltown by Conwy. What is an Oldtown prostitute doing in a dungeon in Gulltown in the Vale?

[BitsOfBrains]

I hope not. I always liked/felt bad for Satin.

He had like the worst childhood ever but still seems to be a decent dude.

[Razha]

he might be yet another bastard of Robert the Fat, someone will burn him with some unforeseen results :))))

though seriously - i think having so many spies, bastards and secret allies would be too contrived...

I think he is just a guy with dubious background that will turn out to be more of a man than some around him and might be part of "hiding Jon's body / recovering Jon's body" storyline

[Pecan]

It isn't an outlandish idea that Littlefinger, Varys, or some other actors such as the Maesters might have a spy on the wall. It's just speculation though and as far as I know, there isn't any textual evidence. But I wouldn't dismiss the possibility. Varys, especially, is in the information business and I could see him sending someone to the wall just because it sorta makes sense to know what's going on up there and you never know where that one critical bit of information is going to come from.

[Greymoon]

I think the easier answer is that he was a whore in Oldtown who became a high lord's lover/bedwarmer who tired of him, perhaps when Satin got too old, but was not cruel enough to kill him-which'd explain the literary skills and dancing.

OT a friend mentioned to me that she thinks Satin might be growing a beard because it was something he'd never have been allowed to do at his old job for fear that it'd make him look older.

For some reason, I think that it's more plausible that Satin started off as high lords bedwarmer, and was taught to dance and read at a young age in order to entertain his host. And later, once he became too old for the job (if said high lord liked young boys) he’d have been sold to/ would have started working in a brothel.

There's an ancient "tradition" of pederasty in central asia (it's long since become illegal) were pretty, young boys from poor families were taken in by powerful/wealthy men. They were taught how to dance, sing and play music. Sometimes they were educated as well by their "owner". In return for being housed and fed, the boys had to entertain at parties, recite poetry, sing and dance in women's clothes. This could extend to sexual favors. When the boys started to look like men, having facial hair etc. they would no longer fit the bill.

There's a documentary on this, it’s "the Dancing boys of Afghanistan" http://vimeo.com/11352212 (warning: not for the feeble hearted)

[Winter's Knight]

For some reason, I think that it's more plausible that Satin started off as high lords bedwarmer, and was taught to dance and read at a young age in order to entertain his host. And later, once he became too old for the job (if said high lord liked young boys) he’d have been sold to/ would have started working in a brothel.

There's an ancient "tradition" of pederasty in central asia (it's long since become illegal) were pretty, young boys from poor families were taken in by powerful/wealthy men. They were taught how to dance, sing and play music. Sometimes they were educated as well by their "owner". In return for being housed and fed, the boys had to entertain at parties, recite poetry, sing and dance in women's clothes. This could extend to sexual favors. When the boys started to look like men, having facial hair etc. they would no longer fit the bill.

There's a documentary on this, it’s "the Dancing boys of Afghanistan" http://vimeo.com/11352212 (warning: not for the feeble hearted)

Satin was born in a brothel in Oldtown where his mother worked as a whore. I think he went from brothel to lord's manor near Gultown to the Watch myself.