Why did Martin choose to portray Uncat as evil and monstrous?

[illrede]

It'd be known the Kingslayer wasn't in town for the wedding, that's a bedrock fact that contradicts hearsay assumptions, but it actually has to be considered to be used. Back when she was alive and sane Cat was bad at that sort of thing, vengeful wraith status and outlaw persecuted cave living hasn't helped. They know Tarley men aren't Lannister men, they (should) know Tyrells aren't interchangable with Lannisters, they just consider them as good as because they are both enemies.

And the question to ask is "if Brienne and Jaime were doing what they were supposed to be doing, what would it look like?"

It would look like THAT!

I don't think they believe anything complicated, they are looking at the evidence on face value, she's moaning about Jamie Lannister, carrying papers from a Lannister controlled king, traveling with two Lannister men and carrying a reforged Stark sword with a lion hilt. It looks exactly like Brienne has forsaken her oath to the dead woman and joined the Lannister cause.

Is it known when Brienne would have gotten to KL? I'm not sure its widely known at all. Certainly a little more time for her to tell her story would have been better and more fair, I don't think anyone is saying that the BWB are exercising any type of fantastic justice that should be replicated across the seven kingdoms, only that their belief in Brienne and co's guilt is based on real evidence and a reasonable interpretation of that evidence, its the wrong interpretation but we've seen people throughout the series killed for much less than this.

And Brienne is still given a choice.

[jons nissa]

He sometimes misreads his audience, he apparently thought people would feel sorry for Joff when he died as well.

this. there are other instances as well.

[total1402]

He sometimes misreads his audience, he apparently thought people would feel sorry for Joff when he died as well.

:stillsick:

Maybe if I read that passage and completely forgot everything that character had done in the past three books right up to the exact second he started coughing I might feel sorry for him. But, come on Martin, nobody is going to forget what he did.

I tell you HBO doing that its going to be so OTT. People are going to celebrate in the streets and burn effigies of Joffery or make youtube videos galore.

[The Summer Islander]

He wanted her outside to finally match her inside. Her nasty black hate filled, spiteful, vicious, odious, obnoxious heart can finally be seen! :leaving:

[The Ned's Little Girl]

UnCat is not Cat. Cat was dead in the river with a cut throat when she was brought back.

I don't think UnCat is human. She's a zombified personification of Cat's fear, anger and hatred. She wants to kill Freys, Boltons and Lannisters, and those who support Freys, Boltons and Lannisters. Within that framework her hanging of Brienne and Pod makes perfect sense.

I also think GRRM clealry shows the corrosive effect of unfettered vengeance but balances that against the practical need for vengeance. Does anyone think either Jon or Rickon could rule in the North if the Freys, Lannisters and Boltons aren't killed or broken as powers?

I read on here somewhere that unCat is the personification of the gods' curse upon people who forsake the sacred obligation of guest right. The gods curse those who do so, and unCat is that curse.

[Jasta11]

No Jamie is too important and built up plot wise to die in the woods.

Ned is too important to be beheaded in the first book?

Robb is too important to just die midway through his war?

Jon is too important to be simply stabbed by angry old men?

Don't be so sure.

Also if Martin really expects us to feel for the Freys because of LS, he has really underestimated how much the Red Wedding has affected people. This isin't the kind of thing you can just shrug off.

[FuriousGeorge]

Beric was not a monster just because he had been resurrected, so Catelyn isn't how she is just because she has been resurrected. OK we have been introduced to the idea that each time you are resurrected you come back with less of your 'self', but it is obviously not the case that resurrection simply equals zombiesh slavish devotion to revenge or any other base human desire- I think that is just meant to be how Catelyn is at this point given everything that has happened. As she sees it her whole family is dead and she has been consumed by the trauma of that. This doesn't speak badly of her character in any way IMO.

[total1402]

Jon isn't dead.

Robb wasn't a POV character and its hard to see how killing him actually advanced the plot unless this is a conspiracy to make Jon King of the North.

Same with Ned only he was a POV character.

Plus, Jon, Ned and Robb both had this sense of impending tragedy which built up during the whole novel. Martin has not done this with Jamie Lannister so I do not believe he will just die. As an aside I think the only time martin has went the other way is Dany in ADWD with the build up to the pit where Drogon almost kills her. Besides, Martin would not pass up the opportunity to make Dany look like the bad guy by trying to hunt Jamie Lannister down. Since him killing the mad king has been such a huge part of his arc it would be odd if this did not intersect with Daenerys story at some point. The same goes with Stannis due to his personal connection to Dragonstone and her birth.

[The Bastard of Summer]

He wanted her outside to finally match her inside. Her nasty black hate filled, spiteful, vicious, odious, obnoxious heart can finally be seen! :leaving:

:eek:

Well I think Lady Stoneheart is what the people of Westeros would think is the personification of a curse. I don't think violation of the guest right makes a person cursed or is offensive to the gods, as there are no "gods" to offend. What happened to the Rat cook was just a story. It's all superstition and wishful thinking on the smallfolk and nobles alike to think that the "gods" will take offense and punish the culprit. Nope. Not. Going. To. Happen. If anyone wants vengeance on Late Lord Walder and the people involved they are going to have to go out and make it happen themselves. Cat may not be the same Cat anymore, but if she remembers only one thing about being who she was before she died, it's that she and her son was betrayed. The only thing left of her is that ......vengeance.

[FuriousGeorge]

Ned is too important to be beheaded in the first book?

Robb is too important to just die midway through his war?

Jon is too important to be simply stabbed by angry old men?

Don't be so sure.

Also if Martin really expects us to feel for the Freys because of LS, he has really underestimated how much the Red Wedding has affected people. This isin't the kind of thing you can just shrug off.

They all die near the end of a book though, i.e. at a place that makes sense (if brutal sense) for each character. It's not random. Killing Jaime at the start of tWoW (I assume Brienne taking Jaime to LS will be near the start) would be random, though obviously that pesky GRRM could just do it just for funsies.

[Jasta11]

They all die near the end of a book though, i.e. at a place that makes sense (if brutal sense) for each character. It's not random. Killing Jaime at the start of tWoW (I assume Brienne taking Jaime to LS will be near the start) would be random, though obviously that pesky GRRM could just do it just for funsies.

Who says GRRM uses a pattern or would do it ''for funsies''? It would be pretty tragic for Jaime to die for crimes he didn't do (Red Wedding) in the middle of his ''redemption'' arc. Not saying he will die, but with an author like that I would never make statements implying a character cannot die (yet). For what we know Jon is in fact well and truly dead. I don't think it would be very good writing but there you have it.

But I digress. I don't actually think Jaime will die at the hands of LS. He's actually one of those I believe will survive the series. But I don't think he's gonna tag-team with Brienne to kill LS either, I,m pretty certain GRRM will make it pignant and tragic if she dies somehow. Hell, we don't even know if she can die, since Beric is no longer around to give the Kiss of Life if she gets wounded again.

[Father of Hosts]

Did she even know Brienne for more then a couple months?

Longer than she knew Tyrion and even he eventually got the benefit of the doubt.

ETA: Sorry that took so long. Life and such, getting in the way of ASOIAF.

[Cas Stark]

Who says GRRM uses a pattern or would do it ''for funsies''? It would be pretty tragic for Jaime to die for crimes he didn't do (Red Wedding) in the middle of his ''redemption'' arc. Not saying he will die, but with an author like that I would never make statements implying a character cannot die (yet). For what we know Jon is in fact well and truly dead. I don't think it would be very good writing but there you have it.

But I digress. I don't actually think Jaime will die at the hands of LS. He's actually one of those I believe will survive the series. But I don't think he's gonna tag-team with Brienne to kill LS either, I,m pretty certain GRRM will make it pignant and tragic if she dies somehow. Hell, we don't even know if she can die, since Beric is no longer around to give the Kiss of Life if she gets wounded again.

I think she can definitely die, since Beric died multiple times and Thoros brought him back. Thoros refused to revive Cat, and so Beric sacrificed himself for her, I would have loved it if we got a little on the reason why he did that.

I can't see her believing Jamie and Brienne, especially since the redeemed Jamie still pops off with sarcastic quips just the like unredeemed Jamie did and still gets in a snit when anyone questions him. So, that seems to indicate one of them will have to kill her. It fits the author's sadistic tendencies that he would have Brienne kill her, forcing her to break her vow because she loves Jamie and believes he has been redeemed. That would suck for Cat, but I don't know other than a crazy inplausible escape what else would work.

[jons nissa]

Thoros refused to revive Cat, and so Beric sacrificed himself for her, I would have loved it if we got a little on the reason why he did that.

It fits the author's sadistic tendencies that he would have Brienne kill her, forcing her to break her vow because she loves Jamie and believes he has been redeemed. That would suck for Cat, but I don't know other than a crazy inplausible escape what else would work.

thoros doesn't want to revive her because he knew she'd been dead too long and beric probably just wanted to finally be at rest.

grrm forcing brienne to kill stoneheart wouldn't be sadistic. he wants her to understand how jaime could break his vows so having her see oath breaking as the better option makes sense for the character.

[Cas Stark]

thoros doesn't want to revive her because he knew she'd been dead too long and beric probably just wanted to finally be at rest.

grrm forcing brienne to kill stoneheart wouldn't be sadistic. he wants her to understand how jaime could break his vows so having her see oath breaking as the better option makes sense for the character.

It is sadistic when the author's lesson is to have Brienne break her oath to the destroyed, betrayed, undead woman who has lost everything and everyone she ever cared about through betrayal.

[jons nissa]

It is sadistic when the author's lesson is to have Brienne break her oath to the destroyed, betrayed, undead woman who has lost everything and everyone she ever cared about through betrayal.

hardly. that is the whole point of grrm's story: human struggle. also feeling more loyalty to a walking zombie than a live person is another instance of grrm poking fun. a dead person's incorrect belief of betrayal vs saving a person who's alive? hmmmmm.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Cat always had a bit of a mean streak (her insistence that Jon leave Winterfell when Ned goes South). Uncat though is consumed by pain and rage. I wouldn't argue she's a good person merely misunderstood or anything, but her hatred seems justified to me. I wouldn't personally call her evil, although thats just me.

[Cas Stark]

hardly. that is the whole point of grrm's story: human struggle. also feeling more loyalty to a walking zombie than a live person is another instance of grrm poking fun. a dead person's incorrect belief of betrayal vs saving a person who's alive? hmmmmm.

Sorry I can't agree. Cat Stark saved her life, if not for her Brienne would have died in the tent when Renly did or shortly thereafter executed as a traitor. She also gave Brienne acceptance and trusted her with a monumental task. To repay that with betrayal and killing her [again] in order to save Jamie, who despite his popularity remains a POS, is twisted and sadistic.

[jons nissa]

Sorry I can't agree. Cat Stark saved her life, if not for her Brienne would have died in the tent when Renly did or shortly thereafter executed as a traitor. She also gave Brienne acceptance and trusted her with a monumental task. To repay that with betrayal and killing her [again] in order to save Jamie, who despite his popularity remains a POS, is twisted and sadistic.

cat is dead. brienne is honoring her promise to find sansa as much as she can. she is being forced to understand the choice jaime made as well as make a similar choice. it's part of her letting go of the childish belief that being honorable only means one thing and that the path is crystal clear to everyone.

[Earth 1 Andrew]

I think it's because of how the Frey's butchered her son Robb. I guess that she lost one kid too many with Bran, Rickon, and Robb. It would be enough to drive any person to become evil and monstrous. Also, part of the person is lost when they are brought back to life through a Red Priest. Maybe that's why.

ETA: She believes that Bran and Rickon are dead while they are not.