Why is almost everybody in Essos obnoxious?

[James Sucellus]

Are you suggesting that the writing is rasistical towards Essos characters?

I'm suggesting Essos characters are almost always dicks for no reason, and it's weirdly shallow for GRRM who is capable of much better.

[Mad Monkey]

I dunno; in A Game of Thrones, with the exception for Tyrion, ALL our perspectives on Westeros are from the Stark family with a particular mindset, but still we saw complexities to the characters doing terrible things like Sandor Clegane. We're not supposed to root for him slaughtering butcher's boy, but he's NOT just a mindless monster who does Joff's bidding like his brother is.

But in Essos, everyone IS like that. Seriously, the only villain in an Essos arc that I can think of that is actually three-dimensional in her motives and character is Mirri Maz Durr. The rest all act like Cobra Commander and Megatron.

I do think it's interesting that GRRM's said he's not interested in telling an Essos POV.

Oh I agree that the portrayal is one-dimensional, but that's just it though. Even within just the Stark family + Tyrion that's a lot of variety. Jon Snow is not the same person as Catelyn Stark who is not the same person as Arya Stark. Cat's relationship with Lysa is not the same as Jon's relationship with Alliser Thorne; Eddard's relationship with LF is not the same as Cat's relationship with him. And Tyrion is our token non-Stark POV character in Westeros too, which says a lot.

Meanwhile, in Essos we just had Daenerys. She only sees the Essosi as servants/friends or obstacles. We don't get a Missandei POV, or a Grey Worm POV; we don't get a Hizdahr or Cleon. The closest we get is looking at people like Illyrio through Tyrion's eyes (and in the chapters where they are together Illyrio could be just another scheming Westerosi lord, not pure evil but not good either, unlike the Ghiscari monsters we are used to)..

[The Great Walrus]

I know they're constantly stereotyping...

I wasn't serious, you know. :)

[The BlackBear]

I wasn't serious, you know. :)

Oh I know. All Walrus' are incapable of sincerity.

[The Great Walrus]

Oh I know. All Walrus' are incapable of sincerity.

Just as all bears are incapable of snark. :P

[Earth 1 Andrew]

I'm suggesting Essos characters are almost always dicks for no reason, and it's weirdly shallow for GRRM who is capable of much better.

I think it's because naturally humans have a disposition towards one thing: Survival. I believe that individual character's survival instincts and personal wants get in the way of their personality, making them jerks in nature.

[Mladen]

I'm suggesting Essos characters are almost always dicks for no reason, and it's weirdly shallow for GRRM who is capable of much better.

They are seen as dicks for no reason, and that should speak about ability to judge characters of those that sees them. Arya's perception of Braavos is far different than Dany's of Slaver's bay. BUt that's because Arya doesn't see enemies everywhere...

[James Sucellus]

We don't get a Missandei POV, or a Grey Worm POV

Which would have been good as thus far they're soulless, walking pieces of meat. Grey Worm is borderline Pokemon in personality.

[Broken Fox]

Well, their entire world runs on the backs of slaves. They are dicks.

[Broken Fox]

Grey Worm is borderline Pokemon in personality.

:lol:

[TheMysteriousOne]

Dany doesn't like Slaver's Bay, it's clear in her chapters, which is why some of the Essosi characters we see in her chapters seem like dicks. Also the Green Grace is a very good character from Essos.

[The Great Walrus]

Well, their entire world runs on the backs of slaves. They are dicks.

This is one of the reasons i dislike Dany's arc so much. George essentially forces us to root for her by pitting her against mustache-twirling cartoon villains, instead of the more in depth and nuanced power struggles in Westeros.

[Tytos like a boss]

Tytos like a boss, on 2 minutes ago, said:

Is that ironical?

BC: John Connigton, Brienne, Gendry, Wylass, John Snow, Doran Marthel, Kevan Lannister,the High Septon, Thoros of Myr,........................................Jon Connigton is a POV, so is Brienne, Jon Snow, and Kevan.

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Jenny Lannister, the black fish, the Lord of Whiteharbour, Loras Tyrell, Remly Baratheon, Bearic Dondarion, Podric Pain, ser ilyn payne, Oberyne Marthel, Stanis Baratheon, Davos, Jojen Reed, Coldhand,

[James Sucellus]

Dany doesn't like Slaver's Bay, it's clear in her chapters, which is why some of the Essosi characters we see in her chapters seem like dicks. Also the Green Grace is a very good character from Essos.

I don't think that the Essos characters' total lack of personality is some intentional artistic touch from GRRM, indicating Dany sees all foreigners as the same. That's just.... how he intends on writing everybody from that continent.

I'm re-reading ADWD at the moment and the Essos chapters just kill my enthusiasm every time . I even prefer Jon Snow's weird Fawlty Towers-esque running around carrying everybody's bags at The Wall.

[Panos Targaryen]

This is one of the reasons i dislike Dany's arc so much. George essentially forces us to root for her by pitting her against mustache-twirling cartoon villains, instead of the more in depth and nuanced power struggles in Westeros.

People who force children to kill puppies and children have nothing deep or grey about them. Dany made many mistakes, simplified the situation of Essos in her head and didn't consider the consequences of her war many times, but that doesn't change the fact that the slavers are total scum, and deserved what Dany did to them. They're not really mustache-twirling villains, because slavers irl employed similar methods to enslave populations (not talking about the Unsullied btw).

[TheMysteriousOne]

I don't think that the Essos characters' total lack of personality is some intentional artistic touch from GRRM, indicating Dany sees all foreigners as the same. That's just.... how he intends on writing everybody from that continent.

I'm re-reading ADWD at the moment and the Essos chapters just kill my enthusiasm every time . I even prefer Jon Snow's weird Fawlty Towers-esque running around carrying everybody's bags at The Wall.

I don't think that GRRM intended that Dany sees all foreigners as the same, nor do I think that she does. Essos is not the center of attention, like Westeros is, so it won't be as complicated, since GRRM is probably more invested in where the main story and conflicts will take place. Like I said before, not all the characters in Essos are dicks; for example, the Green Grace.

[Minsc]

There are few "good" non-POV characters in Westeros too.

Jory Cassel, Rodrik Cassel, Edmure Tully, Brynden Tully, Greatjon Umber, Benjen Stark, Podrik Payne, Beric, Thoros, Anguy, Yohn Royce, Oberyn Martell, Doran Martell, Sandor Clegane, Mance Rayder, Tormund, Ygritte, Jeor Mormont, Maester Aemon, Loras Tyrell, Garlan Tyrell, Olyvar Frey, Balon Swan, Rodrik Harlaw, Jason Mallister, Dolorous Edd, etc

This listing includes an individuals from the North, Riverlands, Dorne, Reach, Vale, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Stormlands, BWB, Kingsguard, Night's Watch, and Wildlings that can be considered somewhat "good."

[Ser Lepus]

There are plenty of dicks in Westeros too, but most of the the main characters are westerosi and interact mostly with other westerosi, so we get to know all kinds of westerosi people, nice and naughty.

We know Essos through the eyes of westerosi outsiders who deal mostly with politicians, sellswords and schemers, so we get a darker picture of Essos,

Still, we get Syrio Forel, Thoros of Myr, captain Groleo, Greenbeard, Sweets, Grey Worm, Missandei, Dany's bodyguards, all those braavosi people who were nice to Arya...etc., who aren't dicks.

[R'hllor the Fabulous]

People who force children to kill puppies and children have nothing deep or grey about them. Dany made many mistakes, simplified the situation of Essos in her head and didn't consider the consequences of her war many times, but that doesn't change the fact that the slavers are total scum, and deserved what Dany did to them. They're not really mustache-twirling villains, because slavers irl employed similar methods to enslave populations (not talking about the Unsullied btw).

Did you even read the post you quoted?

[James Sucellus]

Essos is not the center of attention, like Westeros is,

Sadly, in ADWD it is the centre of attention and it's a very trying read. We get ten Dany chapters! 10 chapters of 1-dimensional, interchangeable cacklers, a petulant teenage girl and her blow-up doll mercenary sex toy.