Why all the grudges against Eddard Stark ?

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

^^ 2 dead sons + the final taken away lol

[The Fallen]

Initially, I thought this was going to be about posters. Because, man, we have a lot of posters who hate on Ned. As evidenced by some of the posts we've already seen.

Most people would say that Eddard Stark had an admirable personality - loyal, honourable, caring, brave, honest, fierce, empathetic, self-sacrificing, etc. He's not got Stannis' "my way or GTFO" personality either, nor does he trample on people's serious concerns like king Robert.

And yet, at the same time, the man seems to attract irrational grudges like a magnet. What is it about Eddard Stark that sets people against him.

Jaime Lannister hates and resents him - even after Stark is dead, the memory of Stark still vexes him.

I think Ned didn't like the fact that Jaime was sitting on the Iron Throne. It's pretty presumptuous to do that on Jaime's part. It was almost a slap in the face to the rebels and all they had to endure, that a Johnny-come-lately like the Lannisters would think that their last-minute move was deserving of sitting on the throne. One that belonged to his best friend Robert. Now Robert didn't take it that seriously, but then again what does Robert take seriously?

And then you add the fact that he killed the person he was supposed to protect and why would anyone respect Jaime? Now if Jaime had told Ned what had happened it might have made a difference. And Ned is not the only guy who views Jaime that way (think of the Blackfish). It's not like Ned nicknamed him Kingslayer and ruined his life.

Cersei pretty much despises Ned from the moment he's back in Robert's life, and probably long before that.

I don't think Cersei despised Ned. I think she viewed him as a threat to the house of cards that was her family, i.e. Jaime and her kids. She knew that if Ned investigated and found out the truth that he would definitely tell Robert and if there was going to be one voice that Robert listened to it would be Ned.

Tywin Lannister certainly harbours no respect for him, and sees him as an adversary. (Though at least here the feeling was well-founded and mutual.)

I wouldn't say Tywin doesn't respect Ned. I would imagine he doesn't like Ned, especially after Ned pushed to have the Lannisters punished for their actions during the sack of King's Landing. Ned, of course, had no respect for Tywin from that point on.

And Joffrey - well, Joffrey was probably always wanting to kill Ned, somewhere in the back of his mind wanting to bang Sansa and bump off her old man.

I don't even know if Joffrey is capable of the thought process you're attributing to him.

It's not just Lannisters though...

Stannis acknowledges Eddard Stark as honourable, but still goes out of his way to state that Stark was no friend to him, even though Stark was the only major lord who ever thought he was Robert's rightful heir, and the only one Stannis knew actually tried to serve the realm well. When help was needed, where was Stannis. Sulking and brooding on Eddard's closeness to Robert.

This one is interesting. Because I don't think Ned shunned Stannis. I think if Stannis just assumed because he was Robert's friend he couldn't be a friend to Stannis. I think if Stannis had made an attempt to get to know Ned better he would've found a friend in return.

Renly wanted to help Stark, but attach conditions to it. Prior to the moment of crisis, was Renly offering any help at all, with all his friends and power? No.

I never got the vibe that Renly disliked Ned. Renly is a selfish person, as evidenced by him naming himself king. When the shit hits the fan, people like Renly are usually ghost.

Daenerys thinks of Eddard one of the "Usurper's Dogs", despite the fact she's been told already Eddard never supported her or her family being killed. Even with him dead, she says she's glad about it.

Dany has every reason to hate Ned with the information she knows . But even if she finds out the truth of Ned's pleading for her life and his revulsion at what happened to Rheagar's kids, I'm alright with it. For some people it's blood over water, no matter what. And this is coming from a Ned-head.

Ser Jorah is endlessly bitter against Lord Stark for doing his duty after Jorah dishonoured himself to please his unfaithful wife. Even after acknowleging he made a mess of his own life, Jorah still denounces Stark to Dany.

Ser Jorah should be ashamed of himself. A grown man wallowing in pity. Blaming someone else for his own actions. It says a lot when his own family don't feel Ned was wrong and are some of the staunchest Stark supporters.

Balon Greyjoy's grudge against Stark is so irrational that he sabotages his own goals to get revenge on Eddard Stark's homeland, for offenses which Stark himself never actually did, or which are not actually offenses. (Sinking his fleet? Nope. Sons murdered? Nope - died in battle, one killed by a Mallister.) Stark takes his son Theon as a hostage and treats him very well - what an outrage!

He he. Old Balon. What a great person. All I can say is that he waited 'til Ned was gone before exacting his revenge.

EDIT: And yeah, I forgot Barbrey Dustin.

Conspiracy theories aside, Barbrey comes off really bad. Blaming Ned because she was denied being a Stark. This is her anger at Rickard Stark being projected towards Ned. She's petty.

So how does a guy like Eddard Stark attract so much enmity which he does not deserve? Many points in the story seem to hinge on the fact that certain key people hate him, often for no good reason.

I think Lala hit it right on the head.

[The Fallen]

The reason people do not like eddard stark is because he has some serious faults.

1. he hates jamie lannister because he killed his king. but chooses to forget that this was the same king that had his father and brother burnt alive.

It's actually more than that, although Eddard isn't the only one who thinks this is one of Jaime's lowest moments. Ned didn't like the fact that after all the blood, sweat and tears that the rebels shed Jaime finds it amusing to sit on the Iron Throne. It's also presumptuous of him, not to mention how touchy it was for the rebels to have a Lannister sit on the throne that they felt belonged to Robert at that time.

2 he made so terrible mistakes playing the game telling cersei that he knows about the incest was without a doubt the most stupid thing in the series. For a great lord he is politically terrible

So Ned being terrible at the game of thrones is a reason for Cersei to hate Ned? As I stated in my previous post, Cersei feared that Ned would put a kibosh on her being and queen and her children being heirs if he were to find out about her and Jaime.

3 his honor while admirable is what in alot of ways leads to the war of the 5 kings. if he had sided with renly all the other houses would have been crushed easy but his honor makes him side with stannis. this also indirectly lead to the death of his son and the burning of his keep.

Ned is not a hypocrite. How can he justify overthrowing Joffrey because he's illegitimate, then turning around and siding with Renly?

4. Balon greyjoy hates him for turning his son into a land lover and with robert dead taking his revenge on the starks for his sons death was really his only option

Really? A land-lover, lol. For the most part this is just a rehashing of the same old tired critiques of Ned.

[David Selig]

It comes with the territory. A very powerful lord who was a key figure in a civil war and a major rebellion is bound to make some enemies.

[The Fallen]

From a reader's perspective, Stark is a "good guy."

But for a lot of characters, his honor comes off as arrogant. How would you like a man who judges you, thinks he's morally superior, but at the same time doesn't realize how naive he's being?

Look at it from the perspective of Jaime: He made that huge decision to kill the Mad King, who brutally murdered Eddard's father and brother, but he still wanted Jaime to go to the wall for it. He doesn't even bother to tell him why he killed Aerys, because it doesn't occur to him that Ned would care. Note that this is how Jaime sees Ned because of how he comes off to him, not necessarily how Ned really is.

I don't think Ned felt he was morally superior to other people. Actions speak for themselves. If you act dishonorably, how can you expect to be looked at as honorably? And Ned isn't naive. He has principles and sticks to them. Other than Varys, or maybe Littlefinger, who knew that Cersei would try and kill Robert? Ned was banking on Robert having the common decency to exile Cersei and her kids when he found out the truth. People forget that had it not been for a boar, Ned most likely would have come out on top. Of course, Martin is god and that's not what he had in store for Ned. It was his fate to fail and die.

As for Jaime, not only did he not tell Ned, he didn't tell anyone. Did he think his father wouldn't believe him? How about Jon Arryn? Ned wasn't the only one to judge Jaime that day, he was merely the first. I wouldn't be surprised if Jaime, who wanted to be Arthur Dayne, felt some kind of disappointment with Ned's disapproval. Maybe he admired Ned from afar similar to how he admired Arthur Dayne and the Blackfish. Hence the hate towards Ned. Plus, sitting on that chair was the wrong move, dude.

[The Fallen]

All of these grudges are fully explained in the text. I don't know what the mystery is supposed to be about this.

Renly's position in particular is totally rational. If Ned wouldn't take the initiative he was getting out of trouble. Would you trust Ned to carry out a successful coup? Well neither did Renly.

Yes, like one hundred swords would have really turned the tide in Ned's favor.

All these people have a reason to dislike Eddard Stark, because in all honesty, honor is not everything. It'll not make one more loved than cruelty or falseness will. Besides, it only proves how much depends on the point of view and the amount of information you have about somebody.

What reason would Jorah have to like Eddard Stark thanks to whom he lives in exile? And what reason would have Daenerys to like Eddard Stark while all she knows of him is that he was one of the leaders of the rebellion that overthrew her family, killed her brother, father, sister-in-law, niece and nephew. Stannis had given good reasons why he disliked Eddard many times: Robert gave everything to Ned (from brotherly love, gratitude and all) and nothing to Stannis. Renly barely knew Eddard Stark, he was only one of the lords of the court and the friend of his brother. He had his own friends and lords, and no particular reason to love Eddard. Balon Greyjoy's grudge comes from his failed rebellion. He lost his sons to Ned Stark and his chance of independence. The Lannisters have even less like for him, since his honor and friendship to Robert gravely endangers their ongoings. Besides, Eddard is the one who judges and condemns Jaime Lannister the most for killing Aerys, which is quite a soft spot of Jaime and something that had made them sworn enemies long ago.

What did Ned do to any of these people, even Dany?

- Ned didn't force Jorah to marry above his station and to resort to selling people into slavery.

- Ned didn't force Rheagar to kidnap Lyanna, forcing Brandon to react, which got a reaction from Aerys who took things from bad to worse. Even after all that, Aerys demanded Ned's head. What did Ned do to deserve that? So while Dany has every right to hate Ned, Ned had every right to overthrow her disastrous father.

- Is it Ned's fault that Robert loved him? Maybe Stannis should have reached out to Ned. He would have found a great guy that he could have befriended. Either way, it's not Ned's fault.

- I don't think Renly disliked Ned. And Ned didn't ask anything of Renly.

- Ned didn't force Balon Greyjoy and his pirates to rebel either.

- Ned can't be held responsible for Tywin being a double-crosser and a schemer. And Ned didn't force Jaime to kill his king. Had Jaime spoken up it would have changed things.

What all these people have in common is bad choices. (Except for Dany. Unfortunately for her she was a victim of the actions of her brother and father.)

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes, like one hundred swords would have really turned the tide in Ned's favor.

One hundred swords are more than enough to seize Cersei and the children if Ned and Renly were smart about it.

[Siddard Stark]

Well Jamie has a grudge because he thinks Ned judges him, but in actuality Ned saw the Kings blood on Jamie's sword...........Jamie is a member of the kings guard he swore vows to portect his King and he takes his Kings life whatever maybe the reason,from Jamie's POV we get tht he was trying to save lives but from an honourable man like Ned's prospective he was disgusted seeing Areys dead by his sworn KG!!!! And I hope Barristan lives long enough to tell Dany about Areys and truth about Ned so I recon dany changes her feelings towards the Starks

[Earth 1 Andrew]

People can't handle Lord Eddard's swag.

[Aurane Velaryon]

One hundred swords are more than enough to seize Cersei and the children if Ned and Renly were smart about it.

ass :bowdown:

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think the OP is reaching a little bit with some of the people in that list

[TalalOfDorne]

Well people like the Lannisters, Jorah , Balon and Viserys Dany arent going to see the oh-so-honorable, kind hearted Ned Stark. They are going to see the guy who played a part in supporting the side or faction against their interests.

[IRON BANK]

I've been eyeing this thread for a while trying to decide if I want to weigh in or not.

Each of these characters have their own reasons for disliking Ned - whether it's imperfect information (Dany believing that Ned groundlessly participated in RR and that he advocated the slaughter of Elia and her children), Ned as a wrench in their plans, or past history.

On a broader spectrum, I believe that the dislike for Ned is rooted in the fact that, with his unimpeachable honor, Ned is somewhat like a mirror. By being a man of honor and indisputable integrity, he forces the other characters to examine their own motivations and failings, never a comfortable task. This is especially troubling to men like Jaime and Stannis who do not, for all of their good qualities, start the story as introspective characters.

Basically, simply by being Ned, Ned forces many of these characters to see the ugliness and dishonor in themselves, and they hate him for it.

I agree: Ned is the type of individual who plays it straight by the book, his money does not corrupt him, his power does not make him ruthless, he wears his honor like a badge around those who have none or are tainted. This brings enmity, and jealousy in your direction people love to hate you. They will go out of their way to avoid or hurt you because you dont want to play their little games. Ed brought out everyone ones little secrets, back door deals, and plots into the light when they tried to hide them in a dark closet. The best example of this is when King Robert goes on his so called hunting trip and Eddard as the hand sits on the Throne for one day. In that one day Eddard handed out more justice than Robert attempted in 12 years.

[MagnusPrime]

Because he was "The Ned"! and he would have made a damn fine King in the North!

Jaime only holds his grudge because of the look Ned Gave him when he found him sitting on the IT with his sword bloody and Aerys dead at the bottom lying in a pool of his own blood. Ned holds oaths pretty highly and for one to break an oath they have made before both the Old gods and the New is an affront he shall not brook.

Plus Jaime wrongly assumes that he was doing everyone a favor by killing Aerys. even Robert makes this assumption. but what do they think the North and Ned went to war for? Vengeance and Justice. and Jaime robbed them of their due when he killed Aerys. The man had a date with Ice in front of the Wierwood in Winterfell's Godswood if you ask me.

[RhaenysBee]

What did Ned do to any of these people, even Dany?

- Ned didn't force Jorah to marry above his station and to resort to selling people into slavery.

- Ned didn't force Rheagar to kidnap Lyanna, forcing Brandon to react, which got a reaction from Aerys who took things from bad to worse. Even after all that, Aerys demanded Ned's head. What did Ned do to deserve that? So while Dany has every right to hate Ned, Ned had every right to overthrow her disastrous father.

- Is it Ned's fault that Robert loved him? Maybe Stannis should have reached out to Ned. He would have found a great guy that he could have befriended. Either way, it's not Ned's fault.

- I don't think Renly disliked Ned. And Ned didn't ask anything of Renly.

- Ned didn't force Balon Greyjoy and his pirates to rebel either.

- Ned can't be held responsible for Tywin being a double-crosser and a schemer. And Ned didn't force Jaime to kill his king. Had Jaime spoken up it would have changed things.

What all these people have in common is bad choices. (Except for Dany. Unfortunately for her she was a victim of the actions of her brother and father.)

Well, who said any of this was Ned's fault? Of course it wasn't. But that doesn't change the fact that Ned was a leader of the rebellion in which Daenerys's family died, or that Stannis got neglected by Robert or that Balon Greyjoy's sons died or were shipped off to Winterfell. WHO do you think these people will blame for what happened? Balon Greyjoy will blame himself? Or Daenerys her dead relatives? Stannis was sensible enough to blame Robert too and he even knew that his grudge against Ned was an emotional teen boy nobody understands me bullshit. Jorah put enough blame on himself too, but who would not dislike the man who wanted to kill him or send him to the Wall?

What you said is just like that, from Eddard's point of view. But the world doesn't really work like that. How would Daenerys know what part Eddard had in the rebellion? It is a typical trace of human nature to try and blame things on other people. Some are stupid and blame their things entirely on others not even realizing they had a hand in their own fate too. Others are smarter and know that they share the blame as well. But I have never seen anybody, a character or a real life person, who liked to blame himself and love those he had a chance to blame problems on. Eddard was involved in the fates of all these people and his involvement, willingly or not, brought on unpleasant consequences for them. That is usually why people hold grudge against other people.

It is completely understandable. People never start closely examining how much responsibility a certain person had in a matter before they blame things on him. Except for detectives and lawyers and readers.

[Ranger Kragin]

Hi everyone,

This is my very first post here, I kinda like to start with Ned Stark.

I love this character, but IMHO his uncompromising honor is the reason for the grudges as well as his personal undoing.

Honor is right and welcomed in a high Lord, when it is balanced by the right judgement, which implies a good knowledge of all the facts, as well as all the motives.

Unfortunately for Ned, his judgement is one-sided and he doesn't seem to be aware of it.

This is the tragedy of his character.

It is clearly shown in Ned's judgement of the Kingslayer, even though Jaime is guily of a similar sin: uncompromising pride. As Jaime himseld admitted to Brienne, he never told his version of the real killing of the Mad King. Because Ned Stark judged him guilty the moment he saw him.

And Jaime was too proud to explain that actually there was a right cause behind his killing of the King.

Stannis is loathed as well because he's so uncompromising. So either he gains followers or grudges.

I believe that in ASOIAF world there is no real place for the one-sided characters, right or wrong as they may be. More complex, multi-layered and tormented characters have definitely more ground.

[Old-Growth]

So far as Daenerys goes, she is going to get a rude shock if she says anything critical of Lord Eddard to Jon.

[Ranger Kragin]

BTW Catelyn Stark is quite one-sided too and she doesn't seem to make many friends either....

[Lord Stunny]

Ned was just like stannis and stannis had more enemies than Ned.... So that's how it works...

[Russo]

I think hate is being overused in this thread.

The only character I can think of who hates him is Dany and perhaps Barbary Dustin.

All the others simply don't like him, or he was simply an adversary. There is a difference.