Hippocras Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy.. In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle!--- GRRM now how hard is it to believe Beauty is a name not an looks? Nice. But Brienne had no role RE: Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imaginepageant Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 She's had nothing to do with any of Cersei's losses so far: Jamie, Joffrey, dignity.... No, but I believe that what Cersei "holds most dear" is her power. She's lost her position of power for the time being, but if she wins her trial and is cleared of charges, it would be restored (at least to some extent, and she could manipulate Tommen to fully restore her as Regent in light of Kevan's death). If Daenerys conquers Westeros (or even just King's Landing), she would be the direct cause of Cersei's final loss of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Since edric storm is eleven an was concibed the very day Selyse wed, its safe to asume Cersei is older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No, but I believe that what Cersei "holds most dear" is her power. She's lost her position of power for the time being, but if she wins her trial and is cleared of charges, it would be restored (at least to some extent, and she could manipulate Tommen to fully restore her as Regent in light of Kevan's death). If Daenerys conquers Westeros (or even just King's Landing), she would be the direct cause of Cersei's final loss of power. Ok I get that you believe that the hold is hold at the time you are cast down... and that is a valid point of view. Dany is definitely younger and more beautiful and in a great position to take Cersei's power and title... Additionally, she is soon to be with the little brother who only wants permission to rape and kill her as payment for his services.... and he is also a known strangler of women.... Dany does fit nicely in those terms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Nice. But Brienne had no role RE: Joffrey. Joff was one of the things Cersei held dear.... however the taking most likely is at or after she is cast down... If the same person responsible for the loss of all she holds dear: her children, power, and her brother... would have to be Sansa or Margaery as they are the only ones that can be involved in all that are younger could possibly be queens and are remotely beautiful.... Margaery is more likely because Sansa did not know or play any active part in Joffrey's death.... Margaery may have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imaginepageant Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Ok I get that you believe that the hold is hold at the time you are cast down... and that is a valid point of view. Even if the prophecy was referring to what she held most dear at the time of the prophecy being made, I'd still say it was power. Even moreso at that point, since she didn't yet have children (the next best contender for what she holds most dear). Cersei was ambitious from the start and always resented not being able to hold the same power or privilege as Jaime, simply because she was a woman. Note the questions she asked Maggy: Cersei: When will I wed the prince? Maggy: Never. You will wed the king. Cersei: I will be queen, though? Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. Her main concern is, clearly, that she will indeed become the queen. She was smitten with Rhaegar, but she also saw Rhaegar as a means to an end: her power would come from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Joff was one of the things Cersei held dear.... however the taking most likely is at or after she is cast down... If the same person responsible for the loss of all she holds dear: her children, power, and her brother... would have to be Sansa or Margaery as they are the only ones that can be involved in all that are younger could possibly be queens and are remotely beautiful.... Margaery is more likely because Sansa did not know or play any active part in Joffrey's death.... Margaery may have....We have only Littlefinger's word that the Tyrells were involved at all. I don't believe a word he says to Sansa. Everything out of his mouth is manipulation. We don't even know if the hairnet had anything to do with it. Could just as easily be a gimmick to make sure Sansa complied and went into hiding with Littlefinger.The only seemingly corroborating "evidence" came from Taena (!?) and Qyburn (!?) regarding the coin. No reason to believe them either. No coin was ever shown.We know nothing for certain. Come to Westeros soon please Slayer of Lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 We have only Littlefinger's word that the Tyrells were involved at all. I don't believe a word he says to Sansa. Everything out of his mouth is manipulation. We don't even know if the hairnet had anything to do with it. Could just as easily be a gimmick to make sure Sansa complied and went into hiding with Littlefinger.The only seemingly corroborating "evidence" came from Taena (!?) and Qyburn (!?) regarding the coin. No reason to believe them either. No coin was ever shown.We know nothing for certain. Come to Westeros soon please Slayer of Lies. the app confirms QoT was responsible for the Strangler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 well then. :dunce: :thumbsup:I still lean Sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Abominable SnowOther Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what happens to jeyne W if the North rises once again? Im a little confused on that matter, wouldnt she still technically be the queen, will they just tell her to kick rocks and start from scratch again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what happens to jeyne W if the North rises once again? Im a little confused on that matter, wouldnt she still technically be the queen, will they just tell her to kick rocks and start from scratch again? I think she would be considered Queen Dowager? Assuming you refer to the North rising as an independent Kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what happens to jeyne W if the North rises once again? Im a little confused on that matter, wouldnt she still technically be the queen, will they just tell her to kick rocks and start from scratch again? Jeyne W. is queen dowager of the north... but she is not entitled to rule the north.. Bran would be next in line... or her son.... but yes Jeyne would qualify as a younger possibly more beautiful queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Dragonstone Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what happens to jeyne W if the North rises once again? Im a little confused on that matter, wouldnt she still technically be the queen, will they just tell her to kick rocks and start from scratch again? I am not sure about this either. Bran is not technically next in line since he is MIA, and presumed dead as well. Rickon or Jon are next in line, as Sansa is currently disinherited and Arya is also presumed dead or MIA. And as none of Robb's siblings would even recognize Jeyne, and none of them actually know her, I suspect none of them would allow her to have an actual say. Manderly said nothing of her to Davos. Isn't it believed that the Westerlings had a hand in Robb's downfall, or am I imagining that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I feel the with regards to Jeyne, without going too off topic, regardless of who potentially rose up as a new King in the North (for this hypothetical situation just assume there will be another) Jeyne would still be accepted among them as someone deserving of respect as the widow of King Robb. Just look at Brynden Tully, protecting Jeyne to the point of foolishness just because she was Robb's widow. I feel she would be accredited a place of honour in any potential North Kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well I don't really have Marg that high on the list, her being obvious does not bother me as the word Sword comes to mind. But the Tyrells and Lannisters have been sticking it too one another pretty good, and the Tyrells have been getting the better of it. I don't see much poetry there.Sansa will always be at the top of that list as the Lannisters just used and abused her. But not just that, to this point in the story the Starks have been wronged all day long and have yet to even sniff justice or vengeance. The Starks owe a settling of accounts to the Boltons, Freys, Littlefinger and Lannisters like nobody else but then Martin does not seem to want to send that message, or put them in that position. The curse does love power, but she still loves her kids and this person is suppose to take all she holds dear. Brie is taking Jaime, Tyrion took her father and sent her daughter away and others appear poised to take her, and Marg is taking Tommen. The Curse appears to be the one that caused most of this.Arya should be higher as she is the most desperate for vengeance and as a FM she can be as beautiful as she needs to be. The last thing we know about her is that she is being given a pretty face. Though like the other Starks when it comes to seeking vengeance she is taken out of the loop. She never killed the Hound when she could of and the Tickler and Poliver were self defense. Weese may be her only form of vengeance and Jaqen did that.Cers the Curse would seem to be creating her own self fulfilling existential dilemma. It seems a very Rhaegar thing to do. Though I have a hard time seeing how Martin pulls it off and still has the Prophecy make sense. It doesn't need to be literal but you still got to connect the dots. Cersei didn't make just one choice, and I don't want some BS that herself from 2 days ago did cause this because that is just a load of crap.Sansa appears ripe to get LF or be gotten by him, but I suspect if it happens it will be incidental rather than a plot of vengeance or LF own plot will implode causing his downfall.So even though I don't think she should be as high on the list using your rating system, I have to go with Marg. Though Cersei has already been cast down once and superficial things she held dear were taken from her. I am not big on this prophecy as most of what she holds dear has already been or is being taken from Cersei all by different people, though the Tyrells are by far in the lead with Joff, Tommen and Cerseis power all gone or going. I am sure Marg will cast her down and say something like you did this to yourself. Which she really won't have, the Tyrells had their own agenda day one and it was not her call to bring them into the fold. I don't think any one person can take all Cersei holds dear, well unless Cersei kills herself but going to be hard to explain younger and more beautiful, and another. Yeah I don't think Martin can do it. All she holds dear is a huge mistake in the prophecy no one person can pull all that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think it is a misinterpretation to think that Jamie and Brienne's relationship is some kind of love story. Their story is about conflicting vows, honour, dishonour, the greyness of the real world. A passing of the torch from one kingsguard/kingslayer to another (future) one.And they were brought together by a mission to save Sansa. Sansa is more central to Cersei's loss of Jamie than Brienne because she embodies a far greater range of the events and actions that have led to Jamie's disillusionment with Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think it is a misinterpretation to think that Jamie and Brienne's relationship is some kind of love story. Their story is about conflicting vows, honour, dishonour, the greyness of the real world. A passing of the torch from one kingsguard/kingslayer to another (future) one.And they were brought together by a mission to save Sansa. Sansa is more central to Cersei's loss of Jamie than Brienne because she embodies a far greater range of the events and actions that have led to Jamie's disillusionment with Cersei.Brianne has replaced Renly in her thoughts and dreams with Jamie. Jamie has done the same with Brianne for Cersei. If forced to choose between Brianne and Cersei, Jamie's decision is no longer a given. They may never be lovers. But, Brianne and Jamie are closer at the moment than Cersei and Jamie.Cersei's infidelity and rejection of Jamie had nothing at all to do with Sansa. Likewise Jamie's trip to the Riverlands was not initially about Sansa. He was going to work on Sasa after he finished his little war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 his big shift was really when he lost his hand though. That's basically when he decided that honouring his pledge mattered to him. His dream about Brienne had to do with his honour being in her hands - her having his back etc. And that pledge was about Sansa.If we are looking at the loss of Jamie alone, Brienne gets lots of points in this race, but I don't think Brienne will have anything to to with any other of Cersei's losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 his big shift was really when he lost his hand though. That's basically when he decided that honouring his pledge mattered to him. His dream about Brienne had to do with his honour being in her hands - her having his back etc. And that pledge was about Sansa.If we are looking at the loss of Jamie alone, Brienne gets lots of points in this race, but I don't think Brienne will have anything to to with any other of Cersei's losses. Maggy said all that you hold dear.... at the time she gave the fortune Jamie was all Cersei held dear...so when is the Hold? 1, at the time of the fortune.2. at the time Cersei is thrown down.3. some other time in between Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 About Jeyne, I don't think it's circumstantial that she has to wait two years for a marriage, there must be a reason why she remains yet single. Or so I hope there is one, I like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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