So...let's talk about Aliens...

[Robin Of House Hill]

Are they out there?

Have they come to visit us? Did they help us build pyramids?

Do they abduct and probe people?

Were they the angels in the Old Testament?

How do they get here? Are they from other worlds? Or other dimensions? Maybe Earthlings from the future?

How come space seems so lonely and devoid of intelligent life?

Yes

Maybe

No

Probably not.

No

Don't know.

Maybe

Maybe

Maybe

Because the intelligent species think we're a bunch of wankers, so they don't let us know they are there.

[Every]

It seems to me that most aliens (intelligent extraterrestrial life, or any extraterrestrial life) would probably be so different that we wouldn't even recognize them as such. Think about the way we perceive the world - five specific senses, some of which are barely useful, the rest of which are limited to narrow spectra - and how much of our thinking is based around those paradigms. If aliens saw objects as collections of discrete atoms rather than solid geometry as we do, would their mathematics look anything like ours? With different mathematics and different sensory paradigms, would they place any significance on the electromagnetic waves that SETI sends out and listens for?

Stealing Trebla's phrasing: it is arrogance to assume that because we are a certain way, other life will also be that way. It is arrogance to assume that our understanding of the workings of the universe, human-centric and Earth-centric and Sol-centric as it is, resembles the understanding that would be developed by another race in another place. It is arrogance to assume that if we saw alien life, we would recognize it as alive and like us, or they would recognize us as alive and like them.

I agree with this, and that recognising alien life might require us to revisit the definition of 'life', but could you logically limit that to 'aliens'? If you had to rejig the definition of life to include, I don't know, some specific type of supra-molecular complex that we decided was alive, that decision might well have ramifications for Earth in that we now have a whole lot of 'living' things that we didn't have before.

To be honest I think the things we don't know about our own planet are far more interesting than most of what might be going on out in the universe.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Yes to aliens, no they didn't build the pyramids or visit here.

I also am kind of fascinated by the culture of alien-obsessed humans; they kind of remind me of hardcore creationists in a precious sort of way.

And of course, this guy is just something else.

edit:

just read the other thread where sci posted the same shit.

[sologdin]

aliens are too vanilla. we need transdimensional telepathic hemophagic reptilians instead.

[Free Northman]

I think the chance that we are the first should not be automatically disqualified as a potential answer to the Fermi Paradox.

Someone has to be the first. In fact, for all we know the universe would never have evolved life if an amazing set of coincidences didn't allow it to happen here.

Rare Earth Hypothesis. That's the most likely answer for me.

[MinDonner]

I would have thought any race capable of travelling across the vast gulf of space would have better things to do once they got here than either build pyramids out of bricks or stick probes up bums.

[Morienthar]

I think the chance that we are the first should not be automatically disqualified as a potential answer to the Fermi Paradox.

Someone has to be the first. In fact, for all we know the universe would never have evolved life if an amazing set of coincidences didn't allow it to happen here.

Rare Earth Hypothesis. That's the most likely answer for me.

I frankly prefer the Mediocrity Principle.

[Werthead]

Are they out there?

Yes.

Have they come to visit us? Did they help us build pyramids?

No and no.

As Gene Roddenberry once said, we made the pyramids and we were able to do it because we are fucking awesome. Alien intervention not required.

Do they abduct and probe people?

No.

Were they the angels in the Old Testament?

No.

How do they get here? Are they from other worlds? Or other dimensions? Maybe Earthlings from the future?

They haven't, but other worlds and/or dimensions is possible. Probably not from the future, and certainly not our future, as any travel back into the past will likely result in the creation of a splinter timeline.

How come space seems so lonely and devoid of intelligent life?

Because we've only explored 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it. It's like living on an island in the middle of the Pacific in the stone age and asking if the rest of the planet is completely uninhabited.

However, the main issue is that the conditions for life arising seem relatively rare, and that the timespan needed for intelligent life to appear on each planet is huge, with a really bad solar flare or a cometary impact all it takes to set the clock back. Based on our model (and it's the only one available), once civilisation appears, there's only a window of maybe 100-200 years when they are spewing radio signals in all directions when they can be detected before they probably move onto better, less-'leaky' technology and become effectively undetectable at interstellar distances.

To put it another way, if we stuck our best telescopes on a hypothetical planet orbiting Proxima Centauri, they would not even be able to see Earth. Better telescopes would show the planet and they could work out it's life-capable, but not if there's anyone living there. Shove up a radio telescope and they can detect our radio signals. But do the same 200 years earlier, or probably 200 years later, and they won't detect anything even though we're still here. Take into account the chances of life arising on the star system next door are effectively zero and it's more likely to be thousands of light-years away, then you see the scale of the problem.

It's like looking for a needle in a haystack, except the haystack is the size of Jupiter and you've got exactly one person to carry out the search and you only have a window of a few weeks to do it before the needle just vanishes.

[Lord Toblerone]

Are they out there?

Life on other planets? Yes.

Alien civilisations? Most likely, yes.

Spacefaring alien civilisations? Who knows?

Have they come to visit us? Did they help us build pyramids?

Do they abduct and probe people?

Were they the angels in the Old Testament?

Makes for some good science fiction stories, but no on all counts.

Abduction=Sleep paralysis, Egyptians built the pyramids, and everyone knows Angels were based on fairies, and fairies went extinct 10,000 years ago.

ETA:

As Gene Roddenberry once said, we made the pyramids and we were able to do it because we are fucking awesome. Alien intervention not required.

Effing YES.

How do they get here? Are they from other worlds? Or other dimensions? Maybe Earthlings from the future?

How come space seems so lonely and devoid of intelligent life?

I don't know how they might get here. Not sure if "other dimensions" exist in that sense. Time travelling descendants might be cool, who knows maybe we manage to bend the universe around our little fingers in a few thousand years.

And maybe we're just looking in the wrong direction.

[Free Northman]

I don't know. Think about it. Here you have a barren universe, with floating balls of rock and gas, left over from a massive explosion that started it all.

And then you go from there to a walking, talking, thinking, self aware biological being, all spontaneously?

If we didn't exist, I'd say that was a preposterous proposition. The fact that it happened once is already stretching the realms of credibility. I can very easily see it never happening again elsewhere.

[Morienthar]

I don't know. Think about it. Here you have a barren universe, with floating balls of rock and gas, left over from a massive explosion that started it all.

And then you go from there to a walking, talking, thinking, self aware biological being, all spontaneously?

If we didn't exist, I'd say that was a preposterous proposition. The fact that it happened once is already stretching the realms of credibility. I can very easily see it never happening again elsewhere.

Well it did take a good long time to happen didn't it??

And why do we think intelligent life needs to be just like us?

Heck why does it even need to be Carbon Based?

[Free Northman]

Well it did take a good long time to happen didn't it??

And why do we think intelligent life needs to be just like us?

Heck why does it even need to be Carbon Based?

Do the same for any type of lifeform, silicon-based or whatever. You still go from a barren dead universe to some type of being that can think and reason. And it is all achieved spontaneously. It doesn't make sense, man.

[MinDonner]

Where's this "spontaneously" coming from? There's been billions of years already!

[Free Northman]

Where's this "spontaneously" coming from? There's been billions of years already!

That just changes the timeframe. Not the reality of what happened.

[MinDonner]

I just don't see what point you think you're making. A cold, barren universe? No. There are all sorts of forces at work; nuclear explosions, chemical reactions, crystal growth, etc etc etc, any or all of which could have been the initial catalyst for the first proteins to form (or whatever actually happened back in the Precambrian) and thus become "alive". You seem to be acting as if it's a binary choice between COLD INERT ROCK and INTELLIGENT HUMANS. Which is frankly kinda weird.

[Frog Eater]

I am sure that alien life exists or has existed somewhere out there. Assuming that life takes the same form as us is naïve. They could be dinosaurs or mouse men, or insects, or water based creatures, etc. The possibilities are endless.

[Free Northman]

I just don't see what point you think you're making. A cold, barren universe? No. There are all sorts of forces at work; nuclear explosions, chemical reactions, crystal growth, etc etc etc, any or all of which could have been the initial catalyst for the first proteins to form (or whatever actually happened back in the Precambrian) and thus become "alive". You seem to be acting as if it's a binary choice between COLD INERT ROCK and INTELLIGENT HUMANS. Which is frankly kinda weird.

Don't get all wound up about it. I respect your opinion.

I just find it intuitively astounding that we got from nothing to spacefaring intelligence even once in the history of the universe. And I find that it is not at all implausible that it never happens again.

[Spring Bass]

Why would it be "astounding"? With only one case example, we have no idea whether or not it's actually rare.

[Free Northman]

Why would it be "astounding"? With only one case example, we have no idea whether or not it's actually rare.

Indeed. That's why everyone has an opinion on the matter. And my opinion is that this happens to be the one lucky roll of the dice against almost impossible odds.

500 years from now we will no doubt know a lot more. If we have found dozens of life bearing alien worlds by then I'll obviously have been wrong. If we still haven't found any, maybe the Rare Earth Hypothesis will become the dominant theory. Certainly, it has support from some very reputable scientists already. Just like it obviously has very reputable critics as well.

[Sci-2]

To answer my own questions:

Are they out there?

Yes.

Have they come to visit us?

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

Did they help us build pyramids?

Doubt it.

Do they abduct and probe people?

IF they had gotten here anything is possible. But doubtful.

Were they the angels in the Old Testament?

Hopefully not, otherwise all ancient religions might be creative practical jokes. I think that would suck more than the all of them just being false.

How do they get here? Are they from other worlds? Or other dimensions? Maybe Earthlings from the future?

No idea for any of these, but I'm doubtful they ever got here. Earthlings from the future is most unlikely to me.

How come space seems so lonely and devoid of intelligent life?

Smarter people than me have filled out the Fermi Paradox explanations on Wikipedia.