let's talk about the dangerous white culture

[DanteGabriel]

FLOW --

Thanks for that, and to be honest I agree with most of what you said. I think the culture of victimization is pretty society-wide, however. Christianists complain they are victimized because of the "War on Christmas" and because of gay marriage and abortion. Rich people say they're victimized by a push for higher tax rates on top brackets. Corporations say they're victimized by Obamacare. It goes on and on.

So I don't think victimization is restricted to the ghetto, though I do see the problem that the attitude of victimization poses for people trying to get out of the ghetto. I think an effective approach would have to be one that balances external aid and social programs with increased leadership within black communities. And I'm sure there is leadership within these communities, but it's hard to overcome the despair and nihilism that accompanies being a second-class citizen who grows up knowing that they'll be greeted with increased suspicion. The "increased leadership" has to come from individual families themselves, but a lot of families are being torn apart by crime, imprisonment, and lack of jobs. Here we come to the chicken-and-egg problem, which I also lack the energy to have a full debate on.

Lastly, what we could do without is some of the rhetoric that comes out of the right wing. From Reagan's "Cadillac-driving welfare queens" to Romney's remarks on the 47% to persistent voter-disenfranchisement efforts in swing states, and the out-and-out racist comments that periodically surface from the unreconstructed fringe of the GOP, there's been a pretty clear message coming from a significant portion of the country that continues to signal to poor minorities that their efforts may all be for naught.

I do appreciate you making the effort to engage, FLOW. Recent run-ins with other posters have caused me to be grateful for your willingness to have such a discussion.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

It has more to do with that breakdown of society and morals in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!!

There has been no breakdown of society and morals in southern California. However, the riots occurred in orange county, where society and morals never existed.

[Shryke]

Judging by this thread, the original piece has worked perfectly.

So many people with their danders up over this.

[Shryke]

FLOW --

Thanks for that, and to be honest I agree with most of what you said. I think the culture of victimization is pretty society-wide, however. Christianists complain they are victimized because of the "War on Christmas" and because of gay marriage and abortion. Rich people say they're victimized by a push for higher tax rates on top brackets. Corporations say they're victimized by Obamacare. It goes on and on.

So I don't think victimization is restricted to the ghetto, though I do see the problem that the attitude of victimization poses for people trying to get out of the ghetto. I think an effective approach would have to be one that balances external aid and social programs with increased leadership within black communities. And I'm sure there is leadership within these communities, but it's hard to overcome the despair and nihilism that accompanies being a second-class citizen who grows up knowing that they'll be greeted with increased suspicion. The "increased leadership" has to come from individual families themselves, but a lot of families are being torn apart by crime, imprisonment, and lack of jobs. Here we come to the chicken-and-egg problem, which I also lack the energy to have a full debate on.

Lastly, what we could do without is some of the rhetoric that comes out of the right wing. From Reagan's "Cadillac-driving welfare queens" to Romney's remarks on the 47% to persistent voter-disenfranchisement efforts in swing states, and the out-and-out racist comments that periodically surface from the unreconstructed fringe of the GOP, there's been a pretty clear message coming from a significant portion of the country that continues to signal to poor minorities that their efforts may all be for naught.

I do appreciate you making the effort to engage, FLOW. Recent run-ins with other posters have caused me to be grateful for your willingness to have such a discussion.

The thing is, you DO need to talk about this shit constantly because the disadvantages faced by black people cause by other people are still on going. And you can't fix that shit without talking about it.

You can't not talk about victimization because these people are, you know, still victims.

And any time people talk about how so-and-so succeeded because he didn't accept excuses or whatever, they miss the 10 kids behind him who did the same but weren't lucky enough to make it.

[TerraPrime]

Well, I'm a conservative, and I've heard "politically correct" used many times. But I don't think I've ever heard "overly political correct" used as a particuar slogan.

Just curious, then. When the conservatives make the point about political correctness, do they typically complain that there's too little? Or do they praise that there's just enough for their taste? Or, perhaps, the usual context is that it's too much, that political correctness is stifling actual discourse? Like, perhaps, this?

But I think there is also an element that involves suppression of unpleasant truths, or suppression of purely descriptive words that someone has decided are offensive just because they are.. There's nothing wrong with "fat". For that matter, I'm still not sure what was wrong with "blind".

You didn't address any of the merits of the points she made. Instead, you just played the guilt by association card. "Don't speak unpleasant truths, because that will make you a bad person. Even a Republican!"

Hmm... no. I didn't call her a Republican. I said that what you wrote sounded like a piece that would gain support from the people who love Rush Limbaugh. I knew her posting history in the past so I had an idea that she's not a Republican. While I do use the word "Republican" as an insult sometimes, this is not the case.

She essentially complained about hypersensitivity, and a societal penchant for diminishing the role of personal responsibility.

And she did it in a spectacularly piss poor manner, devoid of any substance and prone to hyberbolic rants. Or did what she write really pass for a reasoned argument in your book? Really?

Just because someone hold those opinions doesn't mean they're in favor of back-alley abortions, hate the poor, are homophobic, or hold any other opinions commonly ascribed to Republicans.

And I have not implicated otherwise. I said that what she wrote was a rant that is suited for the Limbaugh audience. I didn't say she's a filthy sleazy hartless mendacious Republican who chews little babies for fun.

But that's the mud you tossed on her opinions in an effort to squelch them and avoid discussion of the underlying issues.

Good grief. Talk about hyper-sensitivity. I didn't realize strongly-worded criticism, and I maintain that my tone in that post matched her tone in her post, amounts to an attempt to squelch someone's right to post on a message board. When did you become so sensitive?

Re: Kolantero

So, what, no one can complain about "political correctness" because the "evil conservatives" has turned it into a slogan? Or is it that "political correctness" doesn't exist? (spoiler: it does). There are no occasions of a full-of-shit hypersensitivity, especially in certain selected subjects? (spoiler: there are)

Nowadays the people who are the adepts of silencing criticism by way of political correctness are the social conservatives. They dislike being called anti-gay bigots, or homophobes, or sexists, etc. It hurts their feelings, it seems, when they are called out on their actions. It's not surprising given the general hypocrisy concerning their vaunted value of personal responsibility, really, but I think your ire is better re-directed at the other side of the spectrum. One can hardly use the word "racist" or "sexist" without some conservative getting all upset about it and launch a complain.

Gotta love the "progessives"/feminists. They whine about how people dismiss their arguments with labels like "politically correct" and then they dismiss what other people are saying simply by labeling them as "conservative" (while somehow also trying to pass "conservatism" as something inherently wrong, somehow) because they used the phrase.

Try reading it again for a better comprehension - I didn't dismiss her complaint because I think she's a conservative. I knew she isn't, because I've seen her posts before. Try finding the words that indicate how I have causaitively associated the lack of merit in her argument to her being a conservative. Once you find it, let me know.

[sologdin]

heh. people who whine about political correctness are usually the same idiots who whine about anti-war protestors or write the newspaper about how its recent headlines show a lack of patriotism. they are dumbasses who need a good nasal douching with a neti pot.

[Kolantero]

One can hardly use the word "racist" or "sexist" without some conservative getting all upset about it and launch a complain.

Except that this isn't political correctness since using the words racist or sexist are politically correct practices in the modern western society while pointing out their (sometimes) ridiculously hyperbolic usage is politically incorrect. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you are kinda trolling here.

Try reading it again for a better comprehension - I didn't dismiss her complaint because I think she's a conservative. I knew she isn't, because I've seen her posts before. Try finding the words that indicate how I have causaitively associated the lack of merit in her argument to her being a conservative. Once you find it, let me know.

Alright so you told her that she only acts like a "conservative" (instead of being one) and the rest remains the same: You used it as an argument, based at least partially on her use of the phrase "political correct" and basically claimed that the latter somehow invalidates her argument. Same difference.

[DanteGabriel]

Alright so you told her that she only acts like a "conservative" (instead of being one) and the rest remains the same: You used it as an argument, based at least partially on her use of the phrase "political correct" and basically claimed that the latter somehow invalidates her argument. Same difference.

Actually I believe TP compared her rant to one that would be enjoyed by Rush Limbaugh fans -- and while most Limbaugh fans probably are conservative, not all conservatives are Rush Limbaugh fans. I wouldn't insult the smart conservatives I know by calling them Limbaugh fans.

So Kolantero, why do you think all conservatives are as dumb as Limbaugh fans?

It's sloppy logic like this that really makes me weep for the future of this country. Basic reading comprehension people.

[Kolantero]

Actually I believe TP compared her rant to one that would be enjoyed by Rush Limbaugh fans -- and while there are significant overlaps, not all conservatives are Rush Limbaugh fans. I wouldn't insult the smart conservatives I know by calling them Limbaugh fans.

So Kolantero, why do you think all conservatives are as dumb as Limbaugh fans?

Oh come on. You honestly have to try much, much harder than that dude.

It's sloppy logic like this that really makes me weep for the future of this country. Basic reading comprehension people.

Hold your tears back brave fighter of equality and punisher of privileged people! You can rejoice again! I'm not from your country.

[DanteGabriel]

Oh come on. You honestly have to try much, much harder than that dude.

Dude, you have to try harder to read and understand the things people are saying so you don't look like a dumbass.

[Kolantero]

Dude, you have to try harder to read and understand the things people are saying so you don't look like a dumbass.

Could you give me some directions on how to avoid it? You sound experienced in that field so maybe if I understand what you are doing wrong I could avoid doing the same mistake.

[DanteGabriel]

Really? We're doing this? You couldn't just accept that at no point did TP call Ninja a conservative? I'm starting to think you're one of those unaccountable types that Ninja ranted about.

[Kolantero]

Really? We're doing this? You couldn't just accept that at no point did TP call Ninja a conservative? I'm starting to think you're one of those unaccountable types that Ninja ranted about.

I did accept that in post 110...

But this from TP's original post:

If you don't think "overly political correct" has been a slogan for conservatives since the 90s then I just don't think you've read enough material from the conservatives. That's pretty much the go-to response they have for anything to do with issues ranging from feminism to homophobia.

is a complain about how she used a "conservative" slogan (or argument), in other words, how she acted like a "conservative".

[DanteGabriel]

Okay Kolantero. I give up. Connect the dots to make them look like whatever you want.

[TerraPrime]

Except that this isn't political correctness since using the words racist or sexist are politically correct practices in the modern western society while pointing out their (sometimes) ridiculously hyperbolic usage is politically incorrect. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you are kinda trolling here.

Oh, I see. Just like feminism only means the negative slant of the movement with which you disagree, political correctness only means what the liberals do with which you disagree. I take the accusation of political correctness to mean the attempt to stifle discourse by insisting on specific usage of terminologies - like what many social conservatives do when they complain about being called a sexist or a racist. If black people, for instance, should not get too upset, as the charge of political correctness goes, for having the fact that many criminals are black pointed out to them, because, you know, it's just a fact and being upset at the fact is a sign of allowing political correctness take over a discourse, then let's also apply the same standard to the racists and sexist and antigay people - tell them to stop complaining about being called these things when they actually say/do racist, sexist, antigay things.

Alright so you told her that she only acts like a "conservative" (instead of being one) and the rest remains the same: You used it as an argument, based at least partially on her use of the phrase "political correct" and basically claimed that the latter somehow invalidates her argument. Same difference.

Actually, her rant didn't have any merit because she provided no substance to back any of it up. But yes, she did use the accusation of political correctness, which is in fact, much more commonly adopted by the conservative side of the political spectrum. The two issues (lack of merit and complaining about political correctness) are not necessarily linked. One can, for instance, offer substance to the critique AND complain about political correctness, in which case, her argument would have merit AND she would still be using a buzzword more frequently favored by the conservatives. I completely allow for the possibility of this scenario, but it is not one that materialized. So no, you are dead wrong to say that I am dismissing her argument because she complained about political correctness.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I'm sorry you had to rush in the post and were not able to present your views more lucidly than you did, then.

That has nothing to do with the validity of your complaint, at all. Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican and whether you listen to Limbaugh's show or not wouldn't change the merit of your rant.

If you don't think "overly political correct" has been a slogan for conservatives since the 90s then I just don't think you've read enough material from the conservatives. That's pretty much the go-to response they have for anything to do with issues ranging from feminism to homophobia.

If only your original post had mentioned these things. But no, it hasn't. It mentioned the world being overly politically correct, that the way your generation was raised was much better than the way this current generation is being raised, that the lack of personal accountability and responsibility is doing this new generation in, and you threw in some hyperbole about a 700 pound woman. it would not be out of place from the keyboard of any number of conservative Republican people, and that doesn't change when it's a solid Democrat who wrote it.

When I discussed pe, arts, etc, that is most likely when they were mentioned, you know, when I was, as you said, arguing why one generation was better than another . Listen, you don't like me. That's fine. But if you're arguing with me and criticizing what I said just because you don't like me, then that isn't my concern, and there's zero reason for me to explain to you some very simple opinions that I have, because nothing I say, no matter how lucid or coherent, will not be satisfactory, even if it was straight from a list of your own opinions. There are tons of people on the Left and Right who do this, refuse to admit the other might, just might, have a valid point, because obviously making this country a more divided and hate fueled country unable to act like civilized fucking adults, is exactly what this country needs. It's working really well.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

heh. people who whine about political correctness are usually the same idiots who whine about anti-war protestors or write the newspaper about how its recent headlines show a lack of patriotism. they are dumbasses who need a good nasal douching with a neti pot.

I do have some sinus issues. I'm a mouth breather, whether I like it or not. I wouldn't say I am a dumbass. Complaining about people who complain about political correctness, is the same as people complaining about political correctness. It's a complaint that does nothing to fix a problem, and I recognize that fact.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Hmm... no. I didn't call her a Republican. I said that what you wrote sounded like a piece that would gain support from the people who love Rush Limbaugh. I knew her posting history in the past so I had an idea that she's not a Republican. While I do use the word "Republican" as an insult sometimes, this is not the case.

Here's what you said:

If only your original post had mentioned these things. But no, it hasn't. It mentioned the world being overly politically correct, that the way your generation was raised was much better than the way this current generation is being raised, that the lack of personal accountability and responsibility is doing this new generation in, and you threw in some hyperbole about a 700 pound woman. it would not be out of place from the keyboard of any number of conservative Republican people, and that doesn't change when it's a solid Democrat who wrote it.

So you didn't call her a Republican -- you just said that what she was saying could have been written by a Republican, and you didn't say that in a complimentary sense. Which amounts to the same thing in the end.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I do have some sinus issues. I'm a mouth breather, whether I like it or not. I wouldn't say I am a dumbass. Complaining about people who complain about political correctness, is the same as people complaining about political correctness. It's a complaint that does nothing to fix a problem, and I recognize that fact.

Yes, there are times when complaints about political correctness are just conservative Republican rhetoric. But there are also times when those complaints about language use are spot-on, and something I think a great many people might agree with. But shoving all such complaints into the same Rush Limbaugh bag, and saying that it is "Republican" to say such things, is just the type of bullying crap that illustrates the problem. You can't even discuss some concepts and ideas without name-calling and attempted intimidation.

[Stag Country]

You can't even discuss some concepts and ideas without name-calling and attempted intimidation.

Wait people irrationally jump to ad hominem political strawman attacks? On this board? NEVER!!!!