let's talk about the dangerous white culture

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I understand the point being made, to think about the slant used when you see news reports about violence, but they could have used some better examples. They used the statistic that 84% of white murder victims were murdered by whites. But the equivalent figure is 94% of blacks are murdered by blacks, not a helpful comparison.

I'm not sure how useful the stat is anyway. If the theme is "white people are scared of black people", then the percentage of whites killed by blacks matters. But what if you're concerned about black people getting killed -- by anyone? Why are "cross-race" murders and crime of such interest?

The reality is that blacks are far more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than whites, and that the perpetrators are far more likely to be black than white. Seems like Chris Hayes would love to reduce the crime issue to "white people worried about being the victims of black crime is just racist paranoia". Fits in nicely with his political agenda.

But that seems to devalue the impact of crime on black citizens who are living in those high-crime communities. What about those people whose fear is very real? What some whites experience with the "wildings" and mass smash and grabs at stores really is just the overflow. Jesse Jackson caused headlines a few years back by stating that he was ashamed to admit it, but when hearing footsteps behind him, he was relieved if the person turned out to be white. To me, this was Hayes making fun of concerns about the black crime rate, which may be a joke to him, but isn't a joke for the black Americans who have to live with it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think it does become difficult to discuss these kinds of things as you have numerous factors going in. I think the term "black culture" just comes across as over generalzing, at least when trying to describe the US's black communities.

I think the much better term is "subculture". Other racial/ethnic groups also have developed various dysfunctional subcultures.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I think it does become difficult to discuss these kinds of things as you have numerous factors going in. I think the term "black culture" just comes across as over generalzing, at least when trying to describe the US's black communities.

There may be cultural factors that disproportionately affect African Americans in certain communities, but is there any factor that not only exclusively affects African Americans but also transcends economic class?

In the black community I grew up in, there is a false sense that only inner city blacks are affected by poverty and that everyone else is well off. If you bring up the facts about whites in the same community being affected by poverty, you'll get replies such as "The government is on their side" but you'll also have the fact that social welfare programs are government based ignored, as if some don't want to admit that they rely on the government they so love to attribute as racist and biased against blacks.

[The Monkey]

I think there's a point to the Gawker article. A bunch of privileged white kids riot and its just kids being kids or a few bad apples in an overall good crowd.

If a group of black kids did the same exact thing, it would have meant the very fabric of society is breaking down and we need to do something about the black menace before you become a victim to their degenerate ways.

Where would such a sentiment be voiced? From my (limited) experience, the media in America is extremely politically correct, as it is in Sweden, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[fuseprime]

This is why I don't watch MSNBC. When will Moderate Whites condemn dangerous White culture? ARE YOU F****** KIDDING ME!?

I truly believe it has nothing to do with a "Dangerous White Culture". It has more to do with that breakdown of society and morals in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!!

As far as Cord Jackson and his ignorant comment about Hoboken's St. Patty's Day, well he's clearly misleading people on that. I've been going there every year for the last 5 years and what he described was a blatant misrepresentation of that event. Sure, people do throw up or get into fights, but it's not some wild west free for all. YOU WILL BE TICKETED AND MAY BE ARRESTED FOR PUBLIC DRUNKENNESS IN HOBOKEN!!

MSNBC is such a joke.

[The Progressive]

If you don't condemn it, then clearly you're in support of the dangerous white culture.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Where would such a sentiment be voiced? From my (limited) experience, the media in America is extremely politically correct, as it is in Sweden, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. But, it is also true that there are some people that will voice such sentiments, even if you won't see it in the mainstream media. What is actually more common in the mainstream media is that you'll see such reports with nothing identifying of the perpetrators at all.

One of the real problems with these kind of issues is a reluctance to discuss them openly. So what you get are either horribly racist generalizations made behind closed doors, or people screaming "racism" every time someone points out the disproportionately high crime rate.

[Kolantero]

OMG what an eye-opening video of such a quirky and smart satire that was! Reversing the race of the people, who would have thought of that! Now I am finally rid of all my racistic racist prejudices of racism I had (I mean I am white therefor I must have had racist tendencies). If only a few more such videos were made and all the white people would be able to see the truth! And without white racism there is no racism at all! OMG!

[fuseprime]

If you don't condemn it, then clearly you're in support of the dangerous white culture.

A good 60% of my issue with the piece is in its title, "When will Moderate Whites condemn dangerous White culture?". What is a moderate white by their standards?

Also, since MSNBC is in no way shape or form objective in reporting the news, they are trying to establish what being "moderate" is. Why wouldn't all white people condemn that? That whole story stinks of lies and deception.

[The Progressive]

That whole story stinks of lies and deception.

Lol, so you see no irony with making that above statement after making this statement?

breakdown of society and morals in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!

Dude, Huntington Beach is as suburban and white and prosperous as you could get in Southern California.

[Sci-2]

I think the much better term is "subculture". Other racial/ethnic groups also have developed various dysfunctional subcultures.

I think that is a better way to identify the culture under discussion, but I have reservations. I guess when I hear complaints about "black culture" it makes it seem like the problems are something African Americans need to solve for themselves.

I think it's similar to how some people portray meth addiction as a "white trash" problem. Both suggests [suggest] poor white and black people just need to get their shit together, and any government funding put toward solving the problem is a wasted investment.

And in both cases there seems to be an undo focus on the race rather than other factors. But I am inclined to agree that stymieing any discussion of cultural factors predominately hurts those within the subcultures as that which is abstract for many of us is daily life for them.

If you bring up the facts about whites in the same community being affected by poverty, you'll get replies such as "The government is on their side" but you'll also have the fact that social welfare programs are government based ignored, as if some don't want to admit that they rely on the government they so love to attribute as racist and biased against blacks.

But this isn't a trait limited to blacks is it? Don't some subset white people also complain about how the government/society helps minorities more?

That said, I can see how this attitude might contribute to cyclical poverty but I think it's only part of the story.

I recall a fellow tutor and I taking two kids in our program to a restaurant in the more affluent area of DC in the early 00s. They were frightened and convinced that they'd be thrown out because they were black.

[awesome possum]

Where would such a sentiment be voiced? From my (limited) experience, the media in America is extremely politically correct, as it is in Sweden, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Despite conservatives best attempts at refuting this, the main stream media in this country includes Fox News (which shows exactly how far in the gutter American journalism truly is). And that type of vitriol would be all over their network, website, and Murdoch-owned newspapers.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think that is a better way to identify the culture under discussion, but I have reservations. I guess when I hear complaints about "black culture" it makes it seem like the problems are something African Americans need to solve for themselves.

Well, you can quibble forever as to exactly how to define that subculture, but I think arging about the definitions and words used kind of misses the larger issue. Anyway, as to your point, I certainly think it is a problem about which all of us should care, but the primary responsibility for fixing behavioral problems in a community has to lie with the people in that community, regardless of color. And I mean "community" in the geographic sense, not the racial sense. A black dude living next to me should have no more or less responsibility to consider the problems of the inner city than I do.

I think it's similar to how some people portray meth addiction as a "white trash" problem. Both suggests [suggest] poor white and black people just need to get their shit together, and any government funding put toward solving the problem is a wasted investment.

I'd say that the emphasis is too often on government funding and not enough on personal responsibility. You may need both, but the fact is that the meth problem didn't arise because of a lack of government funding. And the crime problems weren't as bad in those urban neighborhoods even when there was less funding there either.

[Fragile Bird]

I'm not sure how useful the stat is anyway. If the theme is "white people are scared of black people", then the percentage of whites killed by blacks matters. But what if you're concerned about black people getting killed -- by anyone? Why are "cross-race" murders and crime of such interest?

The reality is that blacks are far more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than whites, and that the perpetrators are far more likely to be black than white. Seems like Chris Hayes would love to reduce the crime issue to "white people worried about being the victims of black crime is just racist paranoia". Fits in nicely with his political agenda.

But that seems to devalue the impact of crime on black citizens who are living in those high-crime communities. What about those people whose fear is very real? What some whites experience with the "wildings" and mass smash and grabs at stores really is just the overflow. Jesse Jackson caused headlines a few years back by stating that he was ashamed to admit it, but when hearing footsteps behind him, he was relieved if the person turned out to be white. To me, this was Hayes making fun of concerns about the black crime rate, which may be a joke to him, but isn't a joke for the black Americans who have to live with it.

Exactly what I'm thinking, FLoW. Like I said, I can understand the point about trying to see the bias in news reports, but not only is black-on-black violence horrible, the murder statistics for the US show in the past decade 50% of all murder victims were black, out of a population base of 13.6%. Homicide is number 8 on the top ten list of the cause of death for black Americans according to the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/populations/REMP/black.html. I couldn't find the number for white people, but the CDC's breakdown of all deaths does not even show homicide in the top 15, though suicide is there at number 10.

So as satire, I give the piece a fail. If something needs to be done about white violence, I bet there's a heck of a lot of black people in the US who wish they had the same sort of violence issues as American white people have.

And I wonder what the thought behind this piece is. Did someone say, black people are sick and tired of being categorized as violent, so let's see how you'd like it if we called you violent? It really does diminish the suffering of victims of violence.

To the person who asked, I think they used the term "moderate" as a reference to Muslim religious leaders who are always being urged to speak up against violence in their communities.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I think that is a better way to identify the culture under discussion, but I have reservations. I guess when I hear complaints about "black culture" it makes it seem like the problems are something African Americans need to solve for themselves.

I think it's similar to how some people portray meth addiction as a "white trash" problem. Both suggests [suggest] poor white and black people just need to get their shit together, and any government funding put toward solving the problem is a wasted investment.

And in both cases there seems to be an undo focus on the race rather than other factors. But I am inclined to agree that stymieing any discussion of cultural factors predominately hurts those within the subcultures as that which is abstract for many of us is daily life for them.

But this isn't a trait limited to blacks is it? Don't some subset white people also complain about how the government/society helps minorities more?

That said, I can see how this attitude might contribute to cyclical poverty but I think it's only part of the story.

I recall a fellow tutor and I taking two kids in our program to a restaurant in the more affluent area of DC in the early 00s. They were frightened and convinced that they'd be thrown out because they were black.

Fair enough. I don't have much experience talking with whites who are impoverished to be able to comment on the subset whites view of minorities in poverty. Every white person I've met from where I live grew up in the suburbs of Akron, mostly the Fairlawn and Copley area. They're priviledged enough to come from middle class families.

One thing that's a trend, though, is the overt liberalism in the name of liberalism. I recall last year, friends of mine thinking it was okay to go around taking Romney/Ryan signs out of people's yards in order to burn them. When asked what made that okay when it would be wrong if someone did the same with their Obama/Biden signs, they just responded "We're just being liberal!"

It made me wonder if this lack of awareness of what liberalism represents spills over into other areas, specifically economic issues that lead to the poverty I grew up around. That is something I'm sure transcends black/white.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Isn't a mob a mob regardless of the racial make up of its participants?

LBaelish,

One thing that's a trend, though, is the overt liberalism in the name of liberalism. I recall last year, friends of mine thinking it was okay to go around taking Romney/Ryan signs out of people's yards in order to burn them. When asked what made that okay when it would be wrong if someone did the same with their Obama/Biden signs, they just responded "We're just being liberal!"

That's a jerky act of tresspass regardless of who is doing it.

[fuseprime]

Lol, so you see no irony with making that above statement after making this statement?

Dude, Huntington Beach is as suburban and white and prosperous as you could get in Southern California.

Lies and Decption = Cord Jackson's description of a "Largely white crowd" "Throwing up and fighting in the streets" at the St Patty's Day Parade/Festival in Hoboken, NJ. That's what I was alluding to in my OP. (#25)

The fact that you have to be a "moderate white" in order to condemn these actions?

Again, you don't see these kind of things happening in other parts of the country. (Maybe Seattle)

[Stag Country]

This is why I don't watch MSNBC. When will Moderate Whites condemn dangerous White culture? ARE YOU F****** KIDDING ME!?

I truly believe it has nothing to do with a "Dangerous White Culture". It has more to do with that breakdown of society and morals in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!!

As far as Cord Jackson and his ignorant comment about Hoboken's St. Patty's Day, well he's clearly misleading people on that. I've been going there every year for the last 5 years and what he described was a blatant misrepresentation of that event. Sure, people do throw up or get into fights, but it's not some wild west free for all. YOU WILL BE TICKETED AND MAY BE ARRESTED FOR PUBLIC DRUNKENNESS IN HOBOKEN!!

MSNBC is such a joke.

The entire thing was built as satire precisely to engender this type of reaction.

Hayes is on a soap box with this one because he's trying to pretend that there isn't a very real difference between drunk overflows like Huntington Beach and semi-organized reactionary riots like we saw in LA after OJ, or Cincinnati back in 2000, or even on a smaller scale like we saw in response to the Zimmerman verdict.

[Sci-2]

Anyway, as to your point, I certainly think it is a problem about which all of us should care, but the primary responsibility for fixing behavioral problems in a community has to lie with the people in that community, regardless of color.

What happens when a community is stuck in a quagmire of cyclical poverty though?

Also note when I think of government intervention I'm not exclusively or necessarily referring to entitlements.

I'd say that the emphasis is too often on government funding and not enough on personal responsibility.

Well, that's why we vote for different parties. ;-)

Seriously though, I can agree with that to an extent. I do think we need some more creative solutions. Personally I'm inclined toward changes in how the school curriculum works, but beyond some knowledge of urban farming proposals I'm admittedly not up-to-date on the various community renewal programs going on in the country.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

What happens when a community is stuck in a quagmire of cyclical poverty though?

Also note when I think of government intervention I'm not exclusively or necessarily referring to entitlements.

Well, that's a positive. My preference is for actions that don't reinforce negative attitudes/behaviors though. So for example, I really dislike government jobs programs, because that teaches people that the role of the government is to provide you with things. If you don't have a job, it is the government's responsibility to find you one.

On the other hand, I do support incentives for private business to create jobs in those communities, because the mindset that then can be taught is not "you have to give me a job", but rather "what do I need to do to convince this person to offer me a job." It's a fundamental recognition that nobody owes you squat, and that it is your responsibility to offer something of value if you want a job. So you'd need to look at all the reasons companies choose not to locate in those areas, and start addressing them.

I think that would require major rethinking of environmental, tax, and labor law. Additionally, it would require a major increase in police presence to make crime less renumerative, and to give residents and businesses a better feeling of security. But I also think all that stuff may well be too controversial politically to ever get enacted.

I really don't want to get off on that tangent, though. Because I still think the first line must be that you still have to obey the law. There are kids who grow up in shitty circumstances who don't grow up to be gang-bangers or dealers, and we at least owe those kids protection.