R+L=J v. 57

[shk12344]

Excellent analysis of the parallels between Star Wars and ASoIAF (I hope George Lucas/ Disney isn't reading this and thinking about putting in a lawsuit claim!).

ETA: Also, a belated kudos to your earlier post, Yeade. One of the most analytical and allegorical posts (not to mention beautifully written!) I have ever read :)

Don't forget the little green men. Yoda=Howland Reed. Remember it was Yoda living in a "swamp" who confirmed to Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader was his natural father. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon Snow makes a pilgrimage to swamp to have the confirmation was of his true parentage by Howland Reed.

[Ygrain]

Don't forget the little green men. Yoda=Howland Reed. Remember it was Yoda living in a "swamp" who confirmed to Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader was his natural father. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon Snow makes a pilgrimage to swamp to have the confirmation was of his true parentage by Howland Reed.

Bingo!

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Don't forget the little green men. Yoda=Howland Reed. Remember it was Yoda living in a "swamp" who confirmed to Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader was his natural father. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon Snow makes a pilgrimage to swamp to have the confirmation was of his true parentage by Howland Reed.

Plus Yoda had gone into exile after the war, a bit like Howland Reed to some extent. I just hope that the Star Wars parallels will not culminate in the twins scenario :ack:

[Ben Blackfysh]

It is an answer to your question:

Simply put, Rhaegar can legally marry as many times as he wishes, since the Targaryens practiced polygamy. And, you go on to allude that everyone needs to recognize the marriage (not the question), and I spell it out, that at least two Kingsguard, viewed by Ned as a shining example of honor for the world, witnessed and acknowledged the marriage. Those were all that mattered on the point.

Touche. I meant for the question to be taken in context with the rest of the paragraph, otherwise I wouldn't have explained myself.

A shining example, maybe, but quite a bit of faith to put in two knights for whom many view as protectors of the "Mad King."

Among what people? Smallfolk? It's not like their opinon matters. Nobles? For them, these KG are living legends and their word goes without questioning, exactly like the word of Eddard Stark.

I don't know about you, but the books I'm reading are full of people, commoners as well as noble, who need everything spelled out for them. And I have to object to your view of the smallfolk. I agree a few would not matter, but entire towns would be enough to light a fire under their respective lords' arses. Not to mention the occasional anti-Targaryen just waiting for an excuse to rebel. Especially at the notion of being ruled by a bastard.

But to add to the ordeal, what would it matter? Now that Arthur and Oswell are (presumed) dead, there is nobody left to vouch for Jon's legitimacy.

[Ygrain]

A shining example, maybe, but quite a bit of faith to put in two knights for whom many view as protectors of the "Mad King."

Can you show me a quote when someone views them like that? Because I sure don't remember any.

I don't know about you, but the books I'm reading are full of people, commoners as well as noble, who need everything spelled out for them. And I have to object to your view of the smallfolk. I agree a few would not matter, but entire towns would be enough to light a fire under their respective lords' arses. Not to mention the occasional anti-Targaryen just waiting for an excuse to rebel. Especially at the notion of being ruled by a bastard.

I'd agree with the anti-Targ sentiments and difficulties pushing the claim, but except the resurgence of Faith Militant, I don't see an example of smallfolk affecting politics in any way, or any lord minding their opinion.

But to add to the ordeal, what would it matter? Now that Arthur and Oswell are (presumed) dead, there is nobody left to vouch for Jon's legitimacy.

I wouldn't bet on that. There could still be material proof, Howland Reed, the Daynes.... if GRRM plans to make the legitimacy public, there are enough founding stones to base it on.

[Greymoon]

In terms of the signigicance of Allyria, her existance would draw a upon the themes of survival, and perhaps draws a parallel between the Blackfyres and the Starks in regards of survival through the female line.

Right now, survival, (as we understand it), through the male line is dubious with Bran unable to reproduce and the possibility of Rickon being unsuitable, and perhaps ultimately turning his back on Winterfell.

She may also play a significant role should Arya ever end up in Dorne, and given that I think the naming of the Direwolves are a nod to the Stark destiny, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Arya does end up in Dorne.

I also don't think the Daynes could challenge Sansa because by the laws of Westeros, Allyria is a bastard, and Brandon was never the lord of Winterfell, so the title passed to Ned. Making that fight at that point doesn't help Allyrias prospects and I would imagine those conversations would have already been had regarding Asharas own standing.[...]

But, what might make sense is after all Ashara has been through, going off in search of answers and trying to find peace much like the Hound, is more believable to me. She leaves her child in the care of her parents, knowing she will be safe and decides to pursue a mystic route. I know the series is different from the book, but the masked woman who warns Jorah to watch over Dany, I think suggests that she would be more likely the character Ashara given the Daynes own mythic and mysterious origins.

I don’t think that the Brandon fathered Allyria/Ned took the hit to his honor/Allyria was made into Ashara’s sister story line is the simplest way to piece the clues together... I’m not going to argue about Brandon/Ned and who dishonored Ashara, but I think it’s a mistake to consider Ashara, without considering Wylla, too.

What we are told:

1. Ashara was involved with a Stark, the rumors are known. (Cersei, Catelyn, others)
   
2. Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal and looked to Stark
   
3. Ashara had a stillbirth, and certain people in Kingslanding knew (Barristan)
   
4. Ashara Dayne killed herself at Starfall
   
5. Wylla is Jon's 'surrogate mother', but Ned never tells Catelyn.
   
6. Ned Dayne confirms that Wylla is Jon's 'surrogate mother'
   
7. Besides Robert Baratheon and Ned Dayne, other people seem to be ignorant of Wylla
   
8. Wylla is a wet-nurse at Starfall
   

Some observations:

1. It’s possible that the man who dishonored Ashara was not Ned
   
2. It’s possible that Ashara looked to Ned as a mediator
   
3. For some reason, Ashara could not pass as Jon’s ‘surrogate’ mother
   
4. For some reason, the story of Wylla is Jon’s mother, is not widely known.
   

On Wylla: We hear twice that Wylla is Jon's mother. Once from Ned Stark, once from Ned Dayne. The thing here that bothers me, is the simple fact that Ned has not made this story widely known. If Wylla was chosen for the purpose of posing as Jon's mother, why not tell Catelyn? What does Ned gain from not telling her?

IMO, Ned had no time to construct a proper back story. He knows that people will question it, especially in the south where the rumors about Ashara Dayne are better known.

On Ashara/Allyria: Had Ashara not had a stillbirth, if her daughter was then ‘adopted’ by her parents, she would have been the perfect candidate for playing ‘surrogate mother’ to Jon Snow - if we consider that bastards are better accepted in Dorne. This last point is debatable, since we don't know how/what Ashara's parents thought...but I'll stay by it for now.

IMO, the only reason Ned did not claim that Ashara was Jon’s mother, was because she had a stillbirth.

The simplest explanation:

1. Ashara did have a stillbirth, and some people are indeed aware. Her having two consecutive pregnancies would seem unbelievable – therefore she could not pass as Jon’s surrogate mother.
   
2. Because Ned is believed ‘honorable’ and rumored to have been involved with Ashara, the story that Wylla is Jon’s mother does not hold when people question it. Thus there’s a need for ‘secrecy’ in that regard.
   

Another point: If Ashara is really dead, of course Ned would not want to dishonor her memory. It is my impression though that Ashara was still alive when Ned arrived at Starfall. We don't have any true witness account, but IMO, Ashara was in some way or form involved with finding Wylla, and/or helping Ned.

Arya in Dorne: I don't think so. That her direwolf is called Nymeria, IMO, tells us only that Arya's story is that of a warrior princess. Something she already is - she is a princess in the eyes of Robb loyalists, and is learning to kill people.

[Ygrain]

On Wylla: We hear twice that Wylla is Jon's mother. Once from Ned Stark, once from Ned Dayne. The thing here that bothers me, is the simple fact that Ned has not made this story widely known. If Wylla was chosen for the purpose of posing as Jon's mother, why not tell Catelyn? What does Ned gain from not telling her?

I think it's the reverse of the Ashara story - people in the south know that Ashara cannot be the mother, and people in the north know that there was no Wylla around during the war, so the story wouldn't hold water. Ned would sure not want Robert to talk about Wylla because someone might overhear and go "WTF, I was with lord Eddard the whole time and there was no such wench within a mile from his tent"

[MtnLion]

Touche. I meant for the question to be taken in context with the rest of the paragraph, otherwise I wouldn't have explained myself.

Perhaps we need more of an explanation from you, then. Especially since Arthur, Oswell, and the White Bull vouched for the legitimacy of Jon when it needed to be. There is no reason, at present, to need anybody to stand up and say Jon is legitimate. However, if someone were to do that, at an high enough level, would anybody object? I know that Bran can skin-change with humans, which is a significant feat. Would he have the motive to do it to vouch for Jon's legitimacy? Perhaps. But, what is Jon has his mother's wedding cloak, a dragon egg, and a silver harp? Or even Dark Sister? Hmmm, methinks a lot of people will believe him, then. But do they really need to believe that he is Rhaegar's son to force him to take the Iron Throne and protect them from what is coming from the north? I believe that is where we are headed, that Jon does not want the position that he will be forced to take.

[Eira Seren]

I apologize in advance for being too lazy to read the previous threads, as it would be like reading another book.

(Regarding Jon's legitimacy)

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

There's been a lot of discussion about this on previous threads. If you got married in a sept, you would need a Septon, etc. But in the north all you need is a godswood and and a couple of witnesses. There are plenty of godswoods in the north, if that is where Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar. I'm sure there was also one at Harrenhal, where it's been speculated that Lyanna may have remained for a time following the Tourney. There's also a rather significant one quite nearby, but surely the idea of them marrying there is just my own wishful thinking.

[Greymoon]

Touche. I meant for the question to be taken in context with the rest of the paragraph, otherwise I wouldn't have explained myself.

A shining example, maybe, but quite a bit of faith to put in two knights for whom many view as protectors of the "Mad King."

I don't know about you, but the books I'm reading are full of people, commoners as well as noble, who need everything spelled out for them. And I have to object to your view of the smallfolk. I agree a few would not matter, but entire towns would be enough to light a fire under their respective lords' arses. Not to mention the occasional anti-Targaryen just waiting for an excuse to rebel. Especially at the notion of being ruled by a bastard.

But to add to the ordeal, what would it matter? Now that Arthur and Oswell are (presumed) dead, there is nobody left to vouch for Jon's legitimacy.

I think people will believe what gives them the greater advantage. To have a babe/child on the Iron throne, can be an advantage, and a means to greater power. The smallfolk don't have their word to say in this, so if someone with 'authority' claims "this is Rhaegar's son, he is our one true king" and he has two 'honorable' witnesses, and can raise enough armed men to defend the claim, or has enough gold to back it, there's little to be done to contest the claim.

Ned had a piece of parchment, Cersei had the Goldcloaks. Who had the better defense?

As for the smallfolk, as long as they have enough food to get them through winter and don't feel that there's right out abuse of power...why should they care about Kings?

[Dio Forel]

Plus Yoda had gone into exile after the war, a bit like Howland Reed to some extent. I just hope that the Star Wars parallels will not culminate in the twins scenario :ack:

The seed/force is strong...

[Greymoon]

I think it's the reverse of the Ashara story - people in the south know that Ashara cannot be the mother, and people in the north know that there was no Wylla around during the war, so the story wouldn't hold water. Ned would sure not want Robert to talk about Wylla because someone might overhear and go "WTF, I was with lord Eddard the whole time and there was no such wench within a mile from his tent"

True, I hadn't thought about Ned's own men. But this just shows, we cannot consider Ashara's story without Wylla, if we mean to make sense of it.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Can you show me a quote when someone views them like that? Because I sure don't remember any.

Nope. But I know there were plenty of people that didn't approve of Arys's dealings. And it is purely my opinion that many of those same people would view his kingsguard in the same light as him. Aside from nobles who knew of Arthur and Oswell of course.

I'd agree with the anti-Targ sentiments and difficulties pushing the claim, but except the resurgence of Faith Militant, I don't see an example of smallfolk affecting politics in any way, or any lord minding their opinion.

How about at King's Landing? They definitely had an effect on royalty then. Nobles may be able to hide in their castles, but sooner or later they have to face their smallfolk. What would a lord do if his people rebelled? Kill them all? He might not go to war, but the people must be appeased somehow.

I wouldn't bet on that. There could still be material proof, Howland Reed, the Daynes.... if GRRM plans to make the legitimacy public, there are enough founding stones to base it on.

Maybe the Daynes, but I doubt Howland Reed was at their alleged wedding. I mean George can write whatever he wants, but I doubt he will try to legitimize Jon. As of now, Jon is most likely dead. And while temporary, there hasn't been a (graceful) method of bringing back the dead, so I doubt he will sit the throne as a zombie. Who knows though? Maybe he'll be fine.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Perhaps we need more of an explanation from you, then. Especially since Arthur, Oswell, and the White Bull vouched for the legitimacy of Jon when it needed to be. There is no reason, at present, to need anybody to stand up and say Jon is legitimate. However, if someone were to do that, at an high enough level, would anybody object? I know that Bran can skin-change with humans, which is a significant feat. Would he have the motive to do it to vouch for Jon's legitimacy? Perhaps. But, what is Jon has his mother's wedding cloak, a dragon egg, and a silver harp? Or even Dark Sister? Hmmm, methinks a lot of people will believe him, then. But do they really need to believe that he is Rhaegar's son to force him to take the Iron Throne and protect them from what is coming from the north? I believe that is where we are headed, that Jon does not want the position that he will be forced to take.

Can Bran skin-change with humans that aren't anywhere near him? When he entered Hodor, he was right next to him. What one person would he jump into that would be able to convince them? And I don't know about the rest... it's an awful big stretch to say "what if" about Jon having a dragon egg, silver harp, or Dark Sister. If he did, would he not have wondered why she'd had them?

The whole theory just sounds like the happily ever after outcome that I've come to NOT expect from Martin. I agree Jon has some huge purpose, but I doubt it will fall so perfectly into place.

[Jory Cassel]

Nope. But I know there were plenty of people that didn't approve of Arys's dealings. And it is purely my opinion that many of those same people would view his kingsguard in the same light as him. Aside from nobles who knew of Arthur and Oswell of course.

How about at King's Landing? They definitely had an effect on royalty then. Nobles may be able to hide in their castles, but sooner or later they have to face their smallfolk. What would a lord do if his people rebelled? Kill them all? He might not go to war, but the people must be appeased somehow.

Maybe the Daynes, but I doubt Howland Reed was at their alleged wedding. I mean George can write whatever he wants, but I doubt he will try to legitimize Jon. As of now, Jon is most likely dead. And while temporary, there hasn't been a (graceful) method of bringing back the dead, so I doubt he will sit the throne as a zombie. Who knows though? Maybe he'll be fine.

Honestly, I don't know where you get the notion from that smallfolk would have any role at all to play when it comes to the legitimacy of Rhaegar's child. If anything, they probably would not mind at all, as Rhaegar was quite beloved with the common people.

And it does not matter whether Reed was at the wedding, he is one of two (or more) people who are probably still alive and who were at the ToJ, he knew the KG were protecting Jon, and I think he can count one and one together, assuming he has not heard about the marriage from Ned, anyway.

Can Bran skin-change with humans that aren't anywhere near him? When he entered Hodor, he was right next to him. What one person would he jump into that would be able to convince them? And I don't know about the rest... it's an awful big stretch to say "what if" about Jon having a dragon egg, silver harp, or Dark Sister. If he did, would he not have wondered why she'd had them?

The whole theory just sounds like the happily ever after outcome that I've come to NOT expect from Martin. I agree Jon has some huge purpose, but I doubt it will fall so perfectly into place.

Remains to be seen, but quite likely as he is not anywhere near his full power yet.

And why is it such a stretch? Ned made "promises" to Lyanna, whatever they specifically were, why couldn't one be to put a marriage cloak or Dark Sister into her tomb? I for one doubt that she was so overly concerned with her bones, to me it seems rather likely this was just a pretext to put something else there.

And I don't understand why this would be a happy ending, either.. Jon's whole identity and moral code resolve around his bastardy, he's destined to question all this and he'll get to know that the one man he admired most and thought to be his father actually isn't. Does not seem so happy to me, actually.

[Greymoon]

Can Bran skin-change with humans that aren't anywhere near him? When he entered Hodor, he was right next to him. What one person would he jump into that would be able to convince them? And I don't know about the rest... it's an awful big stretch to say "what if" about Jon having a dragon egg, silver harp, or Dark Sister. If he did, would he not have wondered why she'd had them?

The whole theory just sounds like the happily ever after outcome that I've come to NOT expect from Martin. I agree Jon has some huge purpose, but I doubt it will fall so perfectly into place.

It's not a happily ever after if 1) Jon is not happy about being Rhaegar's son and believes himself to have been born of rape 2) Jon, Dany and Aegon do not get along. I think if/when Jon learns of his parentage it will either cause him great grief, or he will be like 'so what?'. Also IMO, Jon will make ennemies 1) with Robb's will 2) with his parentage. Stannis is King, right now. But even though Stannis is king, the northern lords might prefer (or already do) to look to a son of Ned Stark. Robb’s will, has an enormous potential for stirring trouble. The same is true with Dany and Aegon. Dany has the dragons but she a daughter of the mad King Aerys and a foreigner in Westeros. Aegon is a foreigner too, and his claim is dubious. Jon's claim might not be any more solid (his Targ heritage, mind) but he has the advantage of knowing Westeros and its people, the North in particular.

With the revelation of Robb’s will and Jon’s heritage, Jon's has three potentially new and powerful enemies. Not to mention, this might cause a conflict of personal nature, for him if he must make a choice between being a Stark, or being a Targaryen. On the sideline, there’s also Rickon and Sansa, that might well be used to make a claim of Winterfell. How is that a happy ending? I see this only ending in great chaos, with the North even more destabilized then it already is due to greater tension arising between Jon and Stannis. And I cannot picture the relationship between Dany, Aegon and Jon, as anything else but right out antagonistic.

[MtnLion]

Can Bran skin-change with humans that aren't anywhere near him? When he entered Hodor, he was right next to him. What one person would he jump into that would be able to convince them?

Bran has established contact with Jon, while Bran was at Winterfell, and Jon was north of the Wall. Arya has skin-changed into the black cat in the Red Keep, whilst she was in Braavos. What people has Bran had intimate enough contact with to try to skin-change into them and get the word out, if he finds out the truth? Has Brynden Rivers already been trying to get the word out via the ravens? Bran is much more powerful than Brynden, so it makes sense that he will be able to do more. Why limit Bran to using one person? And, to be pretty blunt about it, I believe that Bran will be able to skin-change into anything or anybody in the world, as his skill increases.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Honestly, I don't know where you get the notion from that smallfolk would have any role at all to play when it comes to the legitimacy of Rhaegar's child. If anything, they probably would not mind at all, as Rhaegar was quite beloved with the common people.

And it does not matter whether Reed was at the wedding, he is one of two (or more) people who are probably still alive and who were at the ToJ, he knew the KG were protecting Jon, and I think he can count one and one together, assuming he has not heard about the marriage from Ned, anyway.

Remains to be seen, but quite likely as he is not anywhere near his full power yet.

And why is it such a stretch? Ned made "promises" to Lyanna, whatever they specifically were, why couldn't one be to put a marriage cloak or Dark Sister into her tomb? I for one doubt that she was so overly concerned with her bones, to me it seems rather likely this was just a pretext to put something else there.

And I don't understand why this would be a happy ending, either.. Jon's whole identity and moral code resolve around his bastardy, he's destined to question all this and he'll get to know that the one man he admired most and thought to be his father actually isn't. Does not seem so happy to me, actually.

It's clear that it's down to opinion at this point. You're not the least bit swayed by my view, and while I don't view your ideas as impossible, I do think they're unlikely. I'll leave it at that to save page space.

It's not a happily ever after if 1) Jon is not happy about being Rhaegar's son and believes himself to have been born of rape 2) Jon, Dany and Aegon do not get along. I think if/when Jon learns of his parentage it will either cause him great grief, or he will be like 'so what?'. Also IMO, Jon will make ennemies 1) with Robb's will 2) with his parentage. Stannis is King, right now. But even though Stannis is king, the northern lords might prefer (or already do) to look to a son of Ned Stark. Robb’s will, has an enormous potential for stirring trouble. The same is true with Dany and Aegon. Dany has the dragons but she a daughter of the mad King Aerys and a foreigner in Westeros. Aegon is a foreigner too, and his claim is dubious. Jon's claim might not be any more solid (his Targ heritage, mind) but he has the advantage of knowing Westeros and its people, the North in particular.

With the revelation of Robb’s will and Jon’s heritage, Jon's has three potentially new and powerful enemies. Not to mention, this might cause a conflict of personal nature, for him if he must make a choice between being a Stark, or being a Targaryen. On the sideline, there’s also Rickon and Sansa, that might well be used to make a claim of Winterfell. How is that a happy ending? I see this only ending in great chaos, with the North even more destabilized then it already is due to greater tension arising between Jon and Stannis. And I cannot picture the relationship between Dany, Aegon and Jon, as anything else but right out antagonistic.

By happy ending, I don't really mean happy ending... I mean for everything to fall into place like that. The whole thing about Bran warging into someone just to inform everybody, or Jon warging into Ghost and being revived somehow, and eventually be revealed as the rightful King. To me, it just seems out of place. I can agree with the Sansa and Rickon thing though.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Bran has established contact with Jon, while Bran was at Winterfell, and Jon was north of the Wall. Arya has skin-changed into the black cat in the Red Keep, whilst she was in Braavos. What people has Bran had intimate enough contact with to try to skin-change into them and get the word out, if he finds out the truth? Has Brynden Rivers already been trying to get the word out via the ravens? Bran is much more powerful than Brynden, so it makes sense that he will be able to do more. Why limit Bran to using one person? And, to be pretty blunt about it, I believe that Bran will be able to skin-change into anything or anybody in the world, as his skill increases.

You're right, and this may all very well be true. If he takes Bloodraven's place, he would, after all, be a tree god... but I don't think George will give him that much power. It would ruin the story.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

The seed/force is strong...

Haha, great catch! Wish I'd thought of that! :drunk: