Book vs. Show characterisation of SanSan: A TV Critic's Analysis

[brashcandy]

Every interaction between Sansa and the Hound starts with her being terrified or insulted or both by him.

Again, this is incorrect, and deliberately ignores context, but what is your point for the one or two instances that we see in the novels? The Hound is an intimidating figure, but in every scene they have Martin stresses the connection that is fostered between him and Sansa, and which contributes to their respective character growth. The so-called "insults" don’t affect Sansa, and his feelings about knights directly help to complicate her world view.

In the bedroom scene, it is indeed her song (the Mother's Song) that calms him.

And how is this evidence of Sansa learning to deflate a bad situation? Did she try singing to Marillion or to Lysa Tully or Tyrion? It’s an extraordinary moment where she sings the first thing that comes into her head. Then the Hound takes the knife from her throat – revealing the violent moment has passed. Martin then chooses to have Sansa make an instinctual gesture, through which she detects that Sandor is crying. Why do we need to know this if Martin just wanted us to take away negative feelings from that moment?

Yes, she is still frightened when she finishes since he's completely unhinged and unpredictable (a good thing, I'm sure) but the Hound has been moved to tears by her tender song and actions. Sansa is still acting instinctively (she won't master purposeful manipulation for sometime yet) but she is learning, as we see with Dontos/joffrey.

If you think this scene was meant to show anything even remotely related to Sansa learning “purposeful manipulation” then that explains it all. Cersei was the one who told Sansa right before this meeting that tears are not a woman’s only weapon. That’s the purposeful manipulation Sansa was supposed to enact according to her mother-in-law. Instead we get a raw and visceral scene that didn't weaken their connection, as hard as that may be for you to fathom.

Sansa often wishes for the protection the Hound's fierceness provides her. He's been able to rescue her from the many dangerous situations she finds herself in. How is that surprising?

Is she hoping to be protected too when she’s contemplating Margaery’s offer to attend dinner? It should be surprising to you because surely if she was so terrified by his threats and insults it makes no sense to wish for her other protector to be in any way like the man who inspires such feelings.

But she definitely doesn't appreciate being the receiving end of his threats or anger and it's quite a shame this girl must endure that just to also have his much needed protection.

Sansa is aware for the reasons behind Sandor’s rage and has a better grasp of his insecurities than many. Does she like the intense anger she senses sometimes? Of course not, and she prays for it to be gentled; but she’s aware of that anger being a much bigger problem for the man who carries it around. What she has to “endure” in KL is Joffrey’s abuse, Cersei’s threats (which were to be carried out by the same man who took her father’s head) and later on marriage to Tyrion which brings her to the brink of suicide.

No one denies that Sandor cares. Martin isn't subtle with it at all.

It may be “obvious,” but Martin’s language is quite subtle and he shapes the relationship carefully. He’s not hitting one over the head that these people are developing feelings for each other. And based on some of the opinions surrounding this pairing, I’d have to say that subtlety is right on the mark.

But that does NOT negate the problems that come with his "affections" in my book, bond or no. Finally, your statement That the Hound can be rough and uncouth is not in doubt, but it doesn't prevent them from forming a bond. completely supports my comments that despite his treatment of her she is her able to find a positive place for them to "end" on each time they meet. There is no way a television show or movie would be allowed to depict the reality of their relationship and most wouldn't want to because of the violent and sexual undertone of the pair, given the ages of the two. It's just not positive, it's angsty. That's hardly complex.

I’m struggling to understand how my comments in any way support your view. “Forming a bond” reflects that it’s a mutual consequence for both of them. Sansa is not finding a positive place for them to end – it’s the natural effect of what they both share and experience in the moment. If the Hound had never revealed what happened with his burns then she’d never have reason to touch his shoulder. If he had never given her advice about what to do with Joffrey or supported her when she told the lie at the name day tourney then she may have never have gained the confidence to question him further about his background. And the same is true in the reverse as it’s Sansa’s character and compassion that causes Sandor to behave as he does.

And I’m sorry, but your reasons for the tv show’s failure fall flat when you examine their choices on the whole with respect to Sansa’s characterization. To portray sexual undertones would indicate an ability for the show-producers to be in any way subtle, and that train long missed the station. Let me stress that Sandor is an important part of Sansa’s development not only because of the love story aspect, and as Miodrag pointed out in his essay, there could have been any number of good dialogue scenes highlighting this. Instead the little we got was a stilted hodge podge of stuff taken out of context, along with giving lines to another character for good measure. I don’t think I’ve ever seen another book to show adaptation where people are so willing to attack and undermine the source material in order to excuse the failings of Hollywood executives. It’s bizarre to say the least.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

A lot of very interesting posts here :)

I personally think that the big problem is that D&D do not know how to handle Sansa and most importantly do not know what they want the viewers to feel for Sansa and this results in toning down everything she does,both good and bad acts. Problem is,it creates a desiquilibrium and makes Sansa look inconsistent. As a show-viewer before I started the book,during my reading I immediately saw the things that changed. Sansa not going to Cersei in the show might be seen as an act of Mercy on D&D's part to avoid some Sansa hate that is very well-established based on this scene in the booksfanbase,but then they also removed the scenes where Sansa afterwards stand up for herself,telling Joffrey directly that she hates him,trying to shut herself in her room or even considering suicide as a result of her father's death and a vengeance in her mind (She speaks of her innocent corpse beneath her windows shaming those who betrayed her). Those things,while reading them,really surprised me and made me like Sansa even more even though I thought Sansa telling Joffrey she hates him was not the wisest thing to do,yet showing that later on,she became more cautious in not telling people what she thinks (That even if there is an innate quality of inner-strength in Sansa,she had to "polish" it and learn to master it). Her mistakes and sometimes intemperate words are part of what she became and consequently,erasing them destructs partly her evolution and growth as a character (Needless to say that the "I'm stupid,stupid little girl with stupid dreams who never learns" was character assassination,especially as Margaery is used afterwards to get Sansa thinking Tyrion is not the worst Lannister in the show when she admits it herself alone in the books).

The Sansan relationship is also diminished in the show,especially removing the whole after-tourney scene which was of paramount importance in the establishment of their relationship,with both revealing two sides of their nature to each other. The two characters are,I guess both too complex to be handled easily,their relationship being too intense and full of conflicting emotions.

Personally,now what is done is done with and I'm actually more afraid about how they will handle what's coming up for Sansa in season 4 and particularly her last chapter in ASOS for obvious reasons and especially since there won't be a lot of book-material for Sansa from AFFC,season 4 must invest more in Sansa before it is too late.

[Miodrag]

Here's some food for thought for the author and people who really liked the essay and are dismayed and appalled by the way the SanSan relationship was "butchered" in the show. [...]

Sorry, but even after reading your "food for thought", my brain's still hungry. First of, I'm not sure who are you debating with this post of yours, because my main point is that the show lacks proper depiction of SanSan, and not that it lacks a positive one. I happen to think Martin wrote it as a relationship inspired by positive emotions, but you're welcomed to look at it however you like. You see only abuse there: fine, I guess. We can debate it, and I'm pretty sure I can provide much more textual evidence to support my view than you can, and you can still see nothing but abuse there. Martin can have the two of them happily married at the end of the story, and you can still see theirs as a story of her accepting his violence. But, the main point of my essay, and main point of so many posters here and on other threads, is that the show failed to portray SanSan relationship as a proper story, be it a love one or an abuse one.

What we analyze from the books is delivered through verbal interactions between Sansa and Sandor, and through some unexpected things he does for her (prevents her from killing both herself and Joff at the end of AGOT, stands up against Joff when Kingsguard beat Sansa, saves her during the riot, and offers to take her out of KL at the end of ACOK). Now, D&D removed almost all of their verbal interactions, giving his best lines to another characters, and along with that they removed his standing up to Joff in the throne room - and you think nothing's missing in the show?! Like, it's more or less the same story as in the novels?!

At the end of the day, it's irrelevant what you or I think about their relation in the books. What matters is that the relation is there. For the sake of argument, let's say that it is an unpleasant relation, due to Sandor's abusive nature: now, how does that justify the removal of that relation?! Jaime/Cersei is even more unpleasant and disturbing - would you be OK had they removed that, too? Ned's death is extremely disturbing - do you think they better removed it then? Any number of relations and aspects and events in ASOIAF are disturbing. That's the situation Martin chosen for his story. He didn't write about ten years summer during which nothing of importance happened in the realm. No, he writes about the war that devastates the entire realm, along with the souls of countless individuals. Tragedies tend to be like that, you know. Epic tragedies especially. ASOIAF is packed with disturbing aspects and horrific events. And it's wrong to remove any of it from its adaptation just because it may be disturbing. ASOIAF isn't for everybody, you know. People who are disturbed with violent deaths (of children, for example) and bleak fates of honorable characters, shouldn't consume this story, period.

The reason ASOIAF is so fascinating, is because it's never focused only on those disturbing aspects. Martin always rewards us with abundance of humanity. People do suffer all the time in his saga, but people also sacrifice themselves for the greater good and/or other people. Martin's characters are passionate, first and foremost. And, just to add, preciously subtle storylines like SanSan, go a long way in depicting that humanity. If that's just the story of abuse, as you see it, than it does speak poorly of Sansa (after being literally abused for more than a year, she fails to recognize one more abuse she's the target of?), Sandor (he's abusive toward an imprisoned girl to begin with, but also he can't even take advantage of her properly?), and ultimately Martin (he created Sandor just for the purpose of adding one more brute in a world full of brutes? he wanted one more Sansa's abuser in King's Landing?). Sorry to say, but it looks like you misread ASOIAF, or that part at least.

If the relationship is so fraught with material that makes it unfilmable, with suggestions of pedophilia (or its supposedly less creepy cousin, ephebophilia), with depictions of abuse (both lower-level--coercion, manhandling, shoving, verbal harassment, sexual harassment, intimidation, etc.--and high-level--death threats, threats with a knife, assault, etc.), with the romanticization of abuse and violence, etc. etc., that it had to be completely butchered and revamped to be even filmable, then maybe, just maybe, it's not such a great "love story" after all? Maybe, just maybe, you should think long and hard about the fact that the showrunners had to gut the SanSan arc for Season 2 to make it suitable for cable TV.

Sorry, but you lost me here. What, because D&D are incompetent writers, unable to adapt a complex relation from the source material to the screen, it speaks something about the source material?! (Not to mention that we're talking of guys who sexed up Mel, Margeary, Joff, and even Sansa in a riot, and added no other than a prostitute named Ros - yeah, they definitely cared about how inappropriate SanSan might be!) Is that what you're trying to say?

You started a thread with the commonly accepted "ship" name (used by shippers), and you linked to an essay which has large chunks which are indistinguishable from a ship manifesto (talking about Sandor and Sansa's "love story," etc. etc.).

Listen, I've been called a lot worse names than a shipper. For example - a book purist. So, personally, I wouldn't be bothered by the usage of that word. What I'm bothered with, however, is when someone doesn't even try to remember what I wrote. In both essay and following posts, I wrote that it's impossible to predict what closure will Martin give to the story of Sansa and Sandor. Also, that I'm not sure it's about the two of them being together any more. If you're only willing to see a 'shipping' there, it really isn't something I contributed to. That's your reading into it, plain and simple. I'm not predicting what's going to happen with the two of them. I don't know is it going to be another tragedy of ASOIAF, or a triumph for both Sansa and Sandor, or something else entirely. The only thing I expect in that regard, is for Martin to continue and close their story as masterfully as he incepted it.

[Miodrag]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen another book to show adaptation where people are so willing to attack and undermine the source material in order to excuse the failings of Hollywood executives. It’s bizarre to say the least.

Excellent point. It's really mind-blowing, especially if we consider those are all self-proclaimed ASOIAF lovers. I mean, it's one thing not to like a book you read. However, it's something else entirely to love or like that book enough to frequently post on its fan site, and then, as soon as a TV adaptation arrives, you start bashing the source material in order to 'prove' the adaptation is as good as possible. That is the line of thinking that will puzzle me eternally.

Just compare it to the latest "The Great Gatsby" movie. It is much more faithful to it's source material than GoT. And yet, I can't remember a single reviewer who praised the movie for it's faithfulness. Even reviewers who liked the movie, said something along this line: "It's OK, it's very watchable, it's a good movie, but it's far from a good adaptation". Now, Baz Lurhmann's reputation notwithstanding (he's infamous for messing not only with a source material, but also with an entire eras), for an adaptation of ASOIAF I'd pick him over D&D any given day. They changed their source material infinitely more than Luhrmann ever did any of his.

[Le Cygne]

Sorry to say, but it looks like you misread ASOIAF, or that part at least.

The complete misrepresentation of Sansa, Sandor, and their relationship does seem like this, and for some who just skim for plot, perhaps it is.

But at the same time, there's the matter of Tyrion. Sansa quite clearly ruled out a relationship with him, so we may see from some readers, how dare she, and at the same time, for some, hope that she will change her mind.

Who is standing in the way of this? Sandor.

The Sansa/Sandor relationship is very popular among fans of both the books and the show. That's clear to everyone, including the author. Most of us who are fans see the relationship the way Sansa sees it. Sansa sees Sandor positively throughout the series, and in the later half of the series, romantically. That readers see the story the same way is not surprising. That's how it was written.

[Le Cygne]

Found some more stuff...

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her...

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her...

"Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him." - WOIAF app

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind. - Interview, Geek and Sundry

"Also, I think that fact that The Hound is clearly in love with her, in a Beauty/Beast sort of way, helps endear her to us." - Review, IGN

"But while Bronn distracts himself with a presumably hired lady love, Sandor keeps a rather affectionate candle burning for Sansa. Perhaps making a reference to flame isn't exactly appropriate, considering that Sandor was scared enough of the fire to desert his post. But that does bring up another subtle contrast between himself and fire-starter Bronn, doesn't it?" - Review, TV Overmind

"Why, oh, why wouldn't Sansa go with The Hound at this point? Their shared scenes have always been a pleasure to watch, but none more so than their final one last night. (Though he never asked his little bird for a song, did he?)" - Review, Tor

"Sansa argues that Stannis won't hurt her, which the Hound quickly explains that yes he will, he's a killer. Like him, like Ned, like Robb. And to look him in the face so she can get used to seeing men that kill—they're all around her, making the world what it is. She looks at him and is no longer afraid. , and gosh, he's just gruff because he's scared! Tale as old as time… song as old as rhyme!" - Review, Hey, Don't Judge Me

"But as fire raged outside King's Landing the Hound finally had enough, handing in his tersely memorable notice and pausing only to offer sanctuary to Sansa on his way. Sadly his little bird rejected his offer – but their surprisingly tender scene provided a brief respite amid the death and destruction." - Review, The Guardian

"I never thought it would be possible, but the Hound made me tear up a bit. His conversation with Sansa was so heartfelt. Their relationship has been building up to this, but it was still surprising. Will Sansa get out with him in time? I’m guessing that she will be too late once again." - Review, CliqueClack

"The Hound is obviously soft for Sansa - I think she represents a pureness and innocence he can never possess, and of course there is her beauty, such a beauty that it reminds the Hound of his inner and outer ugliness, and so she becomes a kind of symbol of all things clean that he feels motivated to protect, and yet Sansa refuses him." - Review, (Not So) Daily

"And Sansa, well…she’s clearly getting much better at manipulating Joffrey, and her scenes with Cersei, and most notably the scene with the Hound (Rory McCann) were some of the best we’ve seen with the character." - Review, What Culture

"Sandor Clegane (Rory McCann) surprised us in this episode. His "eff it all" attitude, drinking and his offer to take Sansa (Sophie Turner) away were at the top of the list. He's clearly had enough of his employer and doesn't care who knows it. We must say, we probably would have fled with him if we were Sansa." - Review, E Online

"War forces us to consider our allegiances, and in that battle the Hound realizes that his King is not worth protecting with the flames nipping at his heels. That he feels differently about Sansa says something about the character, something the show has been subtly laying the groundwork for all season." - Review, Cultural Learnings

- Blackwater, 2x09 Reviews

SANSA (to SANDOR): What are you doing here?

Lena Headey (to SANSA): He loves you!...

SANDOR (to SANSA): I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

Neil Marshall (director): We re-shot this scene because the first version we did also had a song in it... He made Sansa sing, but it was the song that she had just finished singing, so coming off the back of the scene it would have...

Peter Dinklage (singing the song from the Disney movie): Really? Beauty and the Beast ... - DVD commentary, 2x09

SANDOR (looking SANSA over appreciatively): Who do you think sent me?

GRRM: That beautiful scene between the Hound, Sandor Clegane, and Sansa. - DVD commentary, 1x08

The shot framing Sansa and the Hound:

D.B. Weiss: The developing relationship between these two...

David Benioff: Yep. Much more to come... - DVD commentary, 1x10

"The Hound/Sansa relationship is still a big part of the show." - Bryan Cogman, scriptwriter

"He's attracted to her." - David Benioff, showrunner

Sansa Stark, Ward of the Court

... Her vulnerability has also attracted the interests of the Hound and Littlefinger...

Sandor Clegane, "The Hound", Ex-Kingsguard

... He bears no love for his brother Gregor, known as "The Mountain," but has a soft spot for Sansa Stark, a frequent object of Joffrey's cruel whims...

- HBO Viewers Guide, Season 3

"The women's group talked about the Sansa-Sandor relationship a bit. We all found it interesting but none of us were into the whole San-San pairing thing, though we mentioned that we found it a bit odd how that was one of the biggest ships out there. We did all feel it was an important relationship that we hoped would be shown in all its complexities on screen." - HBO Focus Group

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic." - GRRM, context for ages

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex. We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that's based on medieval history. They didn't have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books." - GRRM, context for ages

So Twitter was spiking pretty hard while Sansa was being tossed about like a rag-doll. And then it basically spiked to Insane. Good bye Twitter. Hello re-start computer.

@JoeBuffaloWins: The hound!!!!

@Kifty1n: AHHHHHHHHHHHHSANDORSANDORSANDORyesyesyes

@karltmeakin: SANDOR CLEGANE: WAR ZONE.

@MercifulMalacai: The Hound is takin a bite outta crime

@cocolicious46: The Hound be killing the SHYT outta bammas!!

@CMR365: I think the Hound just field dressed somebody

@truebloodandtv: Sandor Clegane is such a boss

@mycropht: Yes! The Hound Represent!!!! Rory McCann FTW

@jpglion: Well done, Hound.

So I got back on and the scroll was at a quasi-managable 140 entries per refresh.

Oh, then dude spoke.

@JalinMarieC: Youre alright now little bird, youre alright

And there went my screen again.

@juiimanji: SANSAN. IT IS TV!CANON.

@siriuslyserious: @GameOfRos: Ros is a SanSan fan. #GameOfThrones I think Im becoming one too

@Wee_Birdie: Oh my *fans self*

@LeahMaycock: I do like The Hound. A tortured soul but maybe a good heart?

@LynchLyfe: Awww I think he loves her.

@Wee_Birdie: Totally worth the wait. I may have melted into a small puddle

@lucia_g89: Omg that sansa scene. Im still shaking

@Kiftyln: oh my god how can a burned man be so smexy idk

@suleikhasnyder: I love that Tyrion and the Hound have such care for Sansa. Aw. #yeahishipit

@Paco_ICEandFIRE: HE DID IT FOR LOVE, TYRION! HE DIDNT SAVE SANSA FOR YOU!!!!

The San/San tweets were still off the charts by the time shit calmed down. There was a brief scene between Sansa and Shae

@jmnzl: Shae is being useful?! What.

No one cared. Most of the people were still spazzing out over San/San. - Tweets, winteriscoming.net

[Mladen]

Excellent point. It's really mind-blowing, especially if we consider those are all self-proclaimed ASOIAF lovers. I mean, it's one thing not to like a book you read. However, it's something else entirely to love or like that book enough to frequently post on its fan site, and then, as soon as a TV adaptation arrives, you start bashing the source material in order to 'prove' the adaptation is as good as possible. That is the line of thinking that will puzzle me eternally.

Just compare it to the latest "The Great Gatsby" movie. It is much more faithful to it's source material than GoT. And yet, I can't remember a single reviewer who praised the movie for it's faithfulness. Even reviewers who liked the movie, said something along this line: "It's OK, it's very watchable, it's a good movie, but it's far from a good adaptation". Now, Baz Lurhmann's reputation notwithstanding (he's infamous for messing not only with a source material, but also with an entire eras), for an adaptation of ASOIAF I'd pick him over D&D any given day. They changed their source material infinitely more than Luhrmann ever did any of his.

Nicely put... I can't understand that we, as readers should remodel our version so it would fit theirs. It is like the viewers of the show, who are also book readers need to change in order that the beauty of their work would come out. It is idiocy to believe that we are the ones who needs to change POVs. And not those that are actually creating TV show.

I like to compare adaptations within the genre. The best examples are HP, and LOTR. In Harry Potter, especially in Half-Blood Prince, we had a situation that I felt like I am watching Twilight movie. The source material was so radically changed that the mistakes made in HBP echoed drastically in the next two movies, and since they couldn't catch up with the books, they oversimplified characters and plotline. In LOTR, and Hobbit we have almost perfect balance between industry demands and adaptational accurance. When we read the books, it seems like Legolas is far less aparent than he is in the movies. But Orlando Bloom completely owned the big screen with his looks, and naturally some circles thought that his pretty face should be exploited. And they did it, but Peter Jackson never went that much far from Tolkien's Legolas, he didn't create a basically new character like D&D are doing, he just made some small changes that allowed viewers more of Legolas. Add to that amazing Rhys-Davies' Gimli, and their interactions, you get jackpot... Simply, industry isn't fair to everyone, and D&D play tragic game of trying to comfort the suits on the expense of artistical integrity... Who here wasn't stunned when Sibel Kekilli was submitted for Emmys, over Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams? Simply, it's how industry works. Popular guy whom you pay a lot of money needs to be protagonist, and then you switch him to category easier to win, and then you change him completely so he would be still "cool". It's like watching train that will inevitably crash... And make no mistake, this "whitewashening" will have to stop, for audience proved so many times before that they get bored with the repetition of the same thing... So, problem, guys isn't in us, it's in them... They are the ones who have intellectually demanding masterpiece in front of them, and they are the ones who need to work far more and far better to uphold the status ASOIAF has...

[Lonin]

First , Miodrag , a very nice essay... well done. A very interesting read.

Second, to PtP thread OPs, PtP has some of the best, if not the best, essays on the board - I don't agree with all of them, but are very good.

3. Industry issues

Sansa is minor, Sophie is minor, Sandor is 28, Rory McCann is 44... Simply, this was a problem that we should have seen coming from day one. We even know that Tommen is replaced with older actor due to Dormer's age (so no outlawing the beets and Ser Ponce.... damn it...). Simply, TV and movie industry has it rules, and we should know it. We have all seen 25 year-old playing highchool student, and 35 year-old playing their parent... Age is trouble however you see it.. And here, where awkward but somewhat romantic storyline should have happened, those problems became even bigger. So, Blackwater episode was waited by some Sansa fans in anticipation how would TV show be dealing with the scene in Sansa's bedroom. And, I must say, given restrictions, GRRM did amazing job... The scene wasn't the one from the books, but it was the second best thing, when Sansa let Sandor know what she knew: "You won't hurt me". Response was simple, and for a second we knew what was said... Brilliance of this scene on each rewatch amazes me, and I honestly believe that this was the most romantic scene in entire GOT.

:agree:

Sansa and Sophie being minors, and laws in the USA (iirc UK as well) regarding scenes with underage children make it impossible to explore (almost) any romantic connotation in the Sansa and Sandor relationship.

I saw one or two TV episodes (1s03, and another one) before buying the books. The TV ages of Sansa and Sandor caused me to miss a little of the relationship. Actually, when I read Sandor saving Sansa during the riots - I decided that I had missed stuff in the relationship and started my first re-read using book ages for them.

[Miodrag]

So, problem, guys isn't in us, it's in them... They are the ones who have intellectually demanding masterpiece in front of them, and they are the ones who need to work far more and far better to uphold the status ASOIAF has...

I'll post some links that practically prove Mladen's and many other points in this and other discussions. I hope I'm not boring with these, cause I post them whenever I get the slightest chance, but anyway: the first link is about "The Sopranos" (warning - it comes with major spoilers, so don't read if you didn't watch that show), and the second one is a spoiler-free article about "The Wire".

1) The Sopranos

2) The Wire

First one was written by Peter Biskind for VF just before the premiere of the final season of The Sopranos. It's a rather long piece, but very thorough and insightful. Biskind missed practically nothing. All one needs to know about the creation of The Sopranos is in there.

Second one was written by David Simon himself, an author of The Wire and a career journalist before turning to television. In it, he recounts problems with city authorities he and the rest of his crew faced while filming their show.

In these two articles, one may see what it took to make those two shows, widely considered the best ever. Chase and Simon both dealt with obstacles not only from the industry, but from a society as well. And, due to their integrity and courage, they managed to overcome those obstacles. One only has to compare that attitude, to the attitude D&D brought in adapting ASOIAF, and realize what is the root cause for all major problems GoT carries.

[Colonel Green]

to the attitude D&D brought in adapting ASOIAF

That attitude being?

I'm far from a fan of every choice the producers have made with the series, but they've done pretty well, on the whole, given the scope of the challenges.

[Woman of War]

Maybe by not seeing the same importance in the SanSan concept like some posters here do the showmakers grant more space and freedom for the character of Sansa itself.

Maybe D&D do not intend to define Sansa by this one relationship alone but see her as part of broader, more important developments and different interactions. After all they have hints from Martin about how her story will go on. And in relation to what is to come for her character the showmakers do not want to overemphazise a maybe relatively small part of Sansa's story, not wanting to burden viewers' image of the character with a sideline that might or not reappear as dramatic and sad step in between but not as focus of Sansa's story. They left out and reinterpreted so many tiny nuances and this is one of them. Not more important than Jaime's "I only save maidens" and the dream about Joanna. Will they e.g. show us the sex beside Joffrey's corpse or will they have compunctions? I hope not! Far more story defining imo.

[Mladen]

Maybe by not seeing the same importance in the SanSan concept like some posters here do the showmakers grant more space and freedom for the character of Sansa itself.

And this argument would stick if they tried to do that...

[Le Cygne]

One only has to compare that attitude, to the attitude D&D brought in adapting ASOIAF, and realize what is the root cause for all major problems GoT carries.

I agree, the adaptation has fallen short. I think your point was, and I hope I'm expressing it correctly, the only way they know to express sexuality is sex. The age of consent for sex where the show is being filmed is 16, but the character on film must be 18. But the restriction is sex, not romance. Still, romance is harder to show, especially without sex.

Look at what they did with Talisa and Robb. What a sassy chick! What a [fill in reason Talisa liked Robb, I don't think they gave us one] dude! Let's bang! Ah, romance. They started to show Sansa/Sandor, but I think it just became too much trouble, and when season 3 rolled around, they gave up. And the characters seemed empty without that going on.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

<snip>

Look at what they did with Talisa and Robb. What a sassy chick! What a [fill in reason Talisa liked Robb, I don't think they gave us one] dude! Let's bang! Ah, romance.

<snip>

This, so very much. I've read any number of times on these forums of people creeped out by Sansa's and Sandor's romantic and sensual feelings for each other, because feelings like those inevitably have to lead to actual banging in their view. To me, them feeling loving feelings toward the other is the point - the only point. It makes no difference if they ever "hook up" or not.

[Le Cygne]

To me, them feeling loving feelings toward the other is the point - the only point. It makes no difference if they ever "hook up" or not.

Yes, and that's why I want to see the story. Same with Jaime and Brienne, they say well, the odds are, he's going to die, nothing is going to happen. So what? What they shared was really meaningful to both. Loving feelings are every bit as important, if not more so. Sex is like the icing on the cake, but the cake... give us the cake, damn it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Yes, and that's why I want to see the story. Same with Jaime and Brienne, they say well, the odds are, he's going to die, nothing is going to happen. So what? What they shared was really meaningful to both. Loving feelings are every bit as important, if not more so. Sex is like the icing on the cake, but the cake... give us the cake, damn it.

:rofl:

Or, in keeping with Westerosi customs, D&D failed to serve us some pie, even if they had to leave out the birds!

[Miodrag]

That attitude being?

I'm far from a fan of every choice the producers have made with the series, but they've done pretty well, on the whole, given the scope of the challenges.

Can you imagine D&D defying cold and calculative business interests of HBO in the name of artistic integrity? I surely can't. After the first pilot was screened to test-viewers and marked as a failure (which is why the director was removed and the pilot was remade almost entirely), I see them only playing safely. Which means: a lot of sex (even where there was none in the novels), a lot of gruesome (but not necessarily needed in a narrative sense) violence, simplifying characters, simplifying storylines, picking 'fan favorites' among characters and then emphasizing their roles at the cost of other characters... And, most of all: neglecting all the meticulous building of themes and all the delicately developed context, and instead going for the pure shock.

There's nothing industry likes as much as money. And let's be honest, it is money HBO picked GoT for. I mean, do you honestly believe the anecdote that HBO executive shared with us few months ago: like, he was at a gym, and there he saw Weiss - who didn't see him, of course - carrying "A Game of Thrones" novel with him even while exercising, and that's where the executive decided to give a green light for the show, because he was fascinated with Weiss' love for the source material? I mean, really?! He was fascinated with Weiss carrying a book so much that he approved a 60 million dollars project because of that fascination? But even then he didn't feel the need to read the book himself?

So no, I don't think HBO picked GoT because an executive saw Weiss with a book in a gym. Nor they picked it because of D&D's perfect credentials. They picked it because they're smart guys who know their math: in the previous decade, HBO made a lot of money with its shows in all the possible genres, except in fantasy; HBO didn't go into fantasy; and fantasy was huge in that decade, thanks to LoTR and Harry Potter and all the other stuff; and "True Blood", which is like the next best thing to fantasy, did pay off well for HBO. Hence, GoT came at a perfect moment for them. And it is a jackpot. Internationally, it's bigger even than The Sopranos. GoT is making a lot of money for HBO. And you think they're going to jeopardize all that in the name of some Sansa and some Sandor? They're going to risk their profit by keeping the sex between Stannis and Mel hinted at instead of shown? They're going to allow Jon to spend his nights learning from some Qhorin guy, instead of flirting with Ygritte? No way!

"The Sopranos of the Middle Earth"? Forget about that. What HBO wanted, and ultimately got, is "True Blood of the Middle Sex and the City".

And the sad thing is, there's nobody there to explain HBO how wrong that approach is. In GoT, there is no David Chase to insist the main character has to kill an informant with his own hands. There is no David Simon to say "fuck the average viewer". There's nobody there to explain to HBO executives that the proper adaptation of ASOIAF would bring them not only the same (and maybe even bigger) money than this one, but also respect and prestige beyond their wildest dreams. With a proper adaptation of ASOIAF, they'd get The Sopranos on cocaine. They'd get The Wire with an audience. Once again, HBO would've been the envy of the industry, with an unparalleled cultural phenomenon in their hands. But no, they went for the shock therapy. Which is hardly a surprise actually, considering they ultimately couldn't entrust D&D even with the comments on DVD without the two of them making a political scandal out of it (the very fact that HBO apologized for their remarks last year shows how little they think of them).

At the end of the day, maybe you're right. Maybe it isn't D&D's fault. Maybe HBO is who we should blame. D&D obviously aren't competent for this big a challenge, but HBO should've known better than to put those two at the helm of the project.

[Le Cygne]

:rofl:

Or, in keeping with Westerosi customs, D&D failed to serve us some pie, even if they had to leave out the birds!

Perfect! :)

[Colonel Green]

Once again, HBO would've been the envy of the industry, with an unparalleled cultural phenomenon in their hands.

Seems like they already have that.

Game of Thrones was not a sure thing, by any means, when it was made. Saying it was a surefire money-maker is hindsight.

[Miodrag]

After all they have hints from Martin about how her story will go on. And in relation to what is to come for her character the showmakers do not want to overemphazise a maybe relatively small part of Sansa's story, not wanting to burden viewers' image of the character with a sideline that might or not reappear as dramatic and sad step in between but not as focus of Sansa's story.

Come on, do you really think D&D actually care about hints they can get from Martin? I mean, was it Martin's hints that they turned The Others into "always the artists" for? Was it Martin's hints they invented that idiotic Qhart subplot for? Was it Martin's hints that made them disrobe Mel in every other indoor scene she's in? Or to have Shae reject diamonds out of wounded pride? Or to turn Pod into an unprecedented sexual predator?

It's not foreknowledge of any kind that lays behind D&D's incompetence. They're just incompetent, is all. If not, I guess they'd come up with at least one proper joke of their own in three seasons, and at the moment, I can't recall a single one.