Christian discussion: Everyone welcome, but please respect the intent of the thread

[Lily Valley]

Matrim,

Where does the Protestant justification for Sola Scriptura come from given the fact that the Church (RCC and Orthodox) assembled the bible without a Sola Scriptura dogmatic understanding?

Thank you Ser Scott, I have been dying to ask the same question. This puzzles me because the Church acknowledges that the New Testament was selected from many Gospels and the books were chosen by early priests who weighed them by what they felt were the most important teachings. Due to that very human lens, the Sola Scriptura nature of Protestantism puzzles me.

Maitrim, I thank you for your answer. I have never read the original Theses of Martin Luther and I am adding them to my weekend reading list. I understand that indulgences were one of the high points of this missile. I happen to like indulgences. Every holy week on Good Friday here, we are reminded that one can be earned by visiting seven churches (within walking distance of the Cathedral) and adoring the cross.

I like the idea of prayer and good work erasing the debt of sin. Prayer in and of itself can be very discomfiting to the conscience. Good works are good for everyone, often the people "helping" in their neighborhood are rewarded much more than the people they are sent to help.

With that segue, awkward as it is, I'd like to broach the subject of Christian charity. I have a couple of Katrina stories to share. I need some time to put them together. I'll open with a silly story.

I have a good mom-friend who was a single mother (like me), proud (like me) and Catholic (like me). One Christmas, the choir director from her church showed up with a gift bag and an envelope from the poor box. The lady made a big point of presenting a twenty (US) that she "provided herself". My friend was horrified. She asked the woman in and offered her tea, which was refused. The woman was busy, had other "packages" to deliver.

My friend sat down and opened the envelope. There was $35 US in it. The twenty that the woman produced had been put in the poor box by my friend on the previous week.

She was completely stunned. She called me and we had a nice hee-haw about it. I swore off Church for a while because of charity.

Edit: Yes, we benefited from this set of good works. Fifty-five dollars US and a good laugh are a nice Christmas present.

The Spelling and grammar errors are Pod's fault. He made me drink this wine.

[MisterOJ]

I just received a phone call at work from my pastor.

Apparently, I have not been in church the past 3-4 Sundays and he just wanted to make sure I was doing okay. :)

I assured him we were just fine and let him know what had been keeping us away on Sundays (mostly my daughter's soccer, but also a family funeral) and then we proceeded to have a nice phone conversation.

This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I imagine it was much more common in the past generation or two. I can see how it would bother some folks, but I found it quaint and reassuring.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

It's a a common thing to do at the churches I've attended in the past.

[Ded As Ned]

@ OJ, I had to LOL a little. At the church I grew up in in Phelps, missing one week got you a phone call, missing two weeks got you an hour-long pop-in, and at three weeks the preacher invited himself over for dinner and theological discussion for the evening, with the added bonus of signing you up for a church committee or charity drive. (He was a master of the ole "thanks-for-signing-up-to-do-this-thing-you-never-actually-agreed-to" pitch).

You got off easy ;)

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

It seems like God chose wisely when he called your pastor to the ministry OJ.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I just received a phone call at work from my pastor.

Apparently, I have not been in church the past 3-4 Sundays and he just wanted to make sure I was doing okay. :)

I assured him we were just fine and let him know what had been keeping us away on Sundays (mostly my daughter's soccer, but also a family funeral) and then we proceeded to have a nice phone conversation.

This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I imagine it was much more common in the past generation or two. I can see how it would bother some folks, but I found it quaint and reassuring.

I was impressed with how the Presbyterian Church keeps rosters of church attendance effectively through sign-in sheets. I never understood why they did this until I studied the Book of Order, which details active and non-active membership. It also explained a call I received from the church of my membership (where I attended college) the year after I graduated asking me what I was doing, to which I had to explain that I was in the midst of seminary.

[Zar Lannister]

This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I imagine it was much more common in the past generation or two. I can see how it would bother some folks, but I found it quaint and reassuring.

That is kind of quaint, at least IMO. I kinda wish I had a more committed relationship with the Parish. I went to the one my Mother attends this Sunday and they had a Franciscan visitor Priest preside the mass. I think he belongs to the Order of Heralds of The Rosary. Very positively moved by the speech and the aporoach. I don't think I've paid that much attention to a sermon in a long time.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

That is kind of quaint, at least IMO. I kinda wish I had a more committed relationship with the Parish. I went to the one my Mother attends this Sunday and they had a Franciscan visitor Priest preside the mass. I think he belongs to the Order of Heralds of The Rosary. Very positively moved by the speech and the aporoach. I don't think I've paid that much attention to a sermon in a long time.

One of the priests at my church reads the gospel and says his homily in under four minutes. It's great for retention.

[MisterOJ]

The more I read about Pope Francis, the more I like him.

What do y'all think about this story from yesterday where he claims atheists can get to heaven by "following their conscience?"

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Eh

[Ded As Ned]

The more I read about Pope Francis, the more I like him.

What do y'all think about this story from yesterday where he claims atheists can get to heaven by "following their conscience?"

I'm going to take off my denominational hat for a moment, because some of these ideas I have don't sit well with some of those in my own church, and other Christians in general. But here's part of my take on things, in a general kind of sense (that is admittedly not entirely fleshed out, somewhat contradicts itself in some ways, and evolves and changes as I do).

Most of the world's population is not Christian. (about 2 Billion according to Google, roughly 28% of the current living population)

And historically, of all the billions and billions of people who have already lived and died throughout human history (or even since the death of Christ), a much smaller percentage of those have been Christian.

What kind of loving parent would condemn 80, 90% of his children for simply having the wrong idea about him/her? What kind of omnipotent being would really care if these creations/children believed they existed or not? I just can't accept that.

I'll add that additionally I view heaven as being in the presense of God, and hell as not.

I think God has to realize that most of us are doing the best we can with what we're given, and thus I have to believe that most, if not all, of us are at least given the opportunity to exist in "heaven", even if we didn't really believe it existed in the first place, or if we believed it would be something entirely different from what it is. I don't think the human mind is capable of truly comprehending what heaven is like, and thus it is impossible for any of us to have it right.

I think that since we have free will, we are also free to reject it as well. But I think we choose hell, and not that it is chosen for us.

So yeah, I agree with the Pope on this one.

[Robin Of House Hill]

The more I read about Pope Francis, the more I like him.

What do y'all think about this story from yesterday where he claims atheists can get to heaven by "following their conscience?"

Originally, I was very skeptical about him, but he keeps doing things that surprise me. I particularly like it when any religious leader says that what people do is more important than what prayers they say.

[Ded As Ned]

Originally, I was very skeptical about him, but he keeps doing things that surprise me. I particularly like it when any religious leader says that what people do is more important than what prayers they say.

Amen to that. And I agree about the Pope. He keeps surprising me too.

[MisterOJ]

<lots of good stuff from Ned>

So yeah, I agree with the Pope on this one.

I agree with most everything you said. And I think many (maybe most?) of the folks in our denomination would agree at least in part.

I really like the direction the Pope is taking the Roman Catholic Church. How great would it be if (in our lifetime) we see the RCC in communion with many other denominations around the world?

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

When he was chosen I not pleased, I've never been to keen on Jesuits. I was impressed about what I heard about his time as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Particularly saying mass for addicts and prostitutes. I was impressed by him washing the feet of kids that are locked up. I agree with his stance on gay priests and salvation of atheists. There are some things I don't agree with but I'll save those things for later.

[Ded As Ned]

I agree with most everything you said. And I think many (maybe most?) of the folks in our denomination would agree at least in part.

I really like the direction the Pope is taking the Roman Catholic Church. How great would it be if (in our lifetime) we see the RCC in communion with many other denominations around the world?

I'd probably amend the part I said about God caring if we believe in him. I'd imagine God does care, and has tried/tries to show us he exists... but I don't think he gets all bent out of shape about it if we don't.

I'd imagine God gets more bent out of shape over the stupid things some humans do in His name.

As to the Pope and communion with the RCC... a few years ago I couldn't have imagined that ever happening in my lifetime. Now, though, it doesn't seem that impossible.

ETA: As to most of the denomination agreeing with me. I would agree to most. There are a few who still hold to the old paradigms and don't want to let go. Whenever our pastor is sick or can't make a Sunday, I fill in and will lead worship and even do a sermon (which I still find comical, fwiw, that our congregation views me as someone capable of leading them, but I digress. One thing about life, you never know what's around the next turn for sure ;) )

Anyway, when I give some of my own views in my sermons I always get a kick of watching the jaws drop, or lips purse, in those few. They still thank me and tell me I give them food for thought in challenging some of their long-held beliefs. Then we hug and go eat together. It's still a good thing.

ETA2: I just realized I'm supposed to have the rough draft of our church's Manual of Operations done by Sunday, and I haven't even started it. And tomorrow night we're going to Louisville overnight for a 5K for Children's Cancer. (See my sig, as there is a couple in our congregation who has a 3 month old with terminal Leukemia so we're doing it in baby Evan's honor) Then there's the UK-UofL football game Saturday too. Priorities, and such. This will be the third time I've said I'd get this done and miss my date. Nobody else wants to do it though, so nobody complains much that I'm taking my sweet time about it.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I agree with most everything you said. And I think many (maybe most?) of the folks in our denomination would agree at least in part.

I really like the direction the Pope is taking the Roman Catholic Church. How great would it be if (in our lifetime) we see the RCC in communion with many other denominations around the world?

You might see the Church in communion with the Orthodox Churches and maybe the Anglican church but it is impossible to go any further than that.

[Zar Lannister]

I think Ded as Ned makes a good point in regards to my own take on the approach.

[MisterOJ]

You might see the Church in communion with the Orthodox Churches and maybe the Anglican church but it is impossible to go any further than that.

Why do you think it is impossible?

[Scion of Valyria]

Why do you think it is impossible?

Isn't a core tenant of many protestant doctrines that the papacy is not, in fact, the supreme head of the Church and rather gets in the way of communion between man and god? Sola scriptora and all that.

As progressive as this dude is, that seems a pretty fundamental thing he couldn't really budge on, and from what I've seen from some protestant denominations (albeit a small, non-representative few) they wouldn't budge on it either.

Is there a way to reconcile the two dogmas without any glaring conflict?