Was the War of the Five Kings Jaime's fault?

[Minsc]

In any case, there would have been war anyway. I'm pretty sure Renly and Balon would have declared regardless of the incest rumors.

Balon wasn't going to declare if the realm is united, nor would Renly declare if Ned was regent which he likely would be if he didn't oppose Joffrey's throne.

[Sansa_Stark]

And I think its fair to blame Cersei and Jaime more than anyone. Oh sure, war could have been avoided if Barristan won that match, but hindsight is important. Cersei and Jaime knew the risks of what they were doing. They just didn't care. This makes then more responsible than anyone else.

[Jon of the Dead]

3 of those things only happened because of the incest. Jon Arryn would have survived if Pycelle did not replace Coleman in Jon's healing. So its more than likely Jon would still be alive without the incest

Agree, Littlefinger needed the incest to have a believable reason to frame the Lannisters for Jon's murder

[thecryptile]

Jaime's responsibility goes back further than the window incident, it goes back to cuckolding Robert and fathering children by incest- if Joffrey was a true Baratheon, Ned and Stannis would never rebel against him! And of course there would have been no reason to push Bran out the window if there were no unnatural activities going on between Jaime and Cersei.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

3 of those things only happened because of the incest. Jon Arryn would have survived if Pycelle did not replace Coleman in Jon's healing. So its more than likely Jon would still be alive without the incest

True, but just because the incest happened, doesn't mean there had to be a war. It was a whole confluence of events and choices. Maybe Cersei wouldn't have had Jaime's children if she had been able to marry Rhaegar like she wanted. Or maybe Joanna would've stopped the incest from going further if she lived. I just don't think the text is telling us that the war was the result of one thing on its own.

[enoofu]

I blame the last Greenseer

Do you actually believe a boar could take out the King ?

What about his ties to the Knight of the Laughing Tree

or Howland Reed ? Important since the Prince and King were acting a bit crazy after this and Ser Danye fall.

Even Bran fall, which could of its very nature could of made him a better Greenseer, did he help setup this action?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Varys and Ilyrio wanted a war. So did Littlefinger. If it wasn't the incest, wouldn't they find some other way to cause the realm to destabilize?

[bent branch]

Blame cannot be attributed to just one or two people. There were actions taken by different people at different times that led to flat out war. Honestly, I think all of Westeros was just waiting to fly apart and only Robert's charisma kept it together as long as he was alive.

[Sansa_Stark]

Varys and Ilyrio wanted a war. So did Littlefinger. If it wasn't the incest, wouldn't they find some other way to cause the realm to destabilize?

Littlefinger isn't omnipotent. There is no proof he could start a war without a huge kicker like the incest. Poisoning Jon and blaming the Lannisters does nothing. And Varys? His plans were nearly killed with Drogo. The only reason he is still in this is because of dragons.

[Sansa_Stark]

Blame cannot be attributed to just one or two people. There were actions taken by different people at different times that led to flat out war. Honestly, I think all of Westeros was just waiting to fly apart and only Robert's charisma kept it together as long as he was alive.

the realm was strongly unified with a north, storm, river, west and vale in alliance. The tyrells had no issue with the baratheons either.

[danm_999]

True, but just because the incest happened, doesn't mean there had to be a war.

But it's also how Jaime and Cersei covered their tracks. They fucked in public places. They fucked with Robert in the bed. And Jaime's plan if they ever got caught? Murder whoever saw them, even if it was Robert. And guess what happens?

So twincest combined with how the secret was protected made war inevitable. It's the fulcrum around which all these other events pivot. No twincest means no Stannis being suspicious and crowning himself, no Jon Arryn death since Pycelle has nothing to cover up, no Ned coming south and playing the game of thrones badly, no Renly crowning himself, no Ned having his head lopped off for treason, no Robb marching South in response, no Catelyn arrested Tyrion for trying to finish Bran off, no Tywin Lannister invasion of the Riverlands, no Balon attacking a defenceless North, etc.

Varys and Ilyrio wanted a war. So did Littlefinger. If it wasn't the incest, wouldn't they find some other way to cause the realm to destabilize?

Possibly, but that's neither here nor there when examining whether the war was Jaime's fault, and whether or not Jaime was the one who gave these agitators exactly what they wanted to destabilise the realm. It's also possible that with a legitimate Baratheon heir that Robert, Ned, Robb, Stannis, Jon Arryn and Renly all supported, any war or destabilisation effort would be much smaller in scale.

[thecryptile]

With a legitimate Baratheon heir, who's left to foment trouble? The Iron Islands and Dorne.

I don't think that Balon would have started anything while the Northern banners were close by and able to defend their settlements.

Dorne would still back a Targaryen restoration, and you see some plotting by Targ loyalists- but nothing on the scale of the War of 5 Kings.

[Sansa_Stark]

Actually the war is more Cersei's fault if anything. She could have had a relationship with Jaime and still given birth to Robert's children.

[danm_999]

Actually the war is more Cersei's fault if anything. She could have had a relationship with Jaime and still given birth to Robert's children.

I dunno, Cersei was at least attempting to conceal twincest through suggesting they don't do it with Robert in the bed, or saying that Jaime couldn't act too fatherly to Joffrey. Jaime was just incredibly cavalier about anybody finding out.

[Cloud]

I thought one of the major themes in the book was the idea that nobody is to blame for a single big event - rather a combination of actions occuring at consecutive times ends up creating it.

E.g. Yeah, Jaime/Cersei should partly be blamed for starting the war, but it's also the people who used the incest to their advantage that need to be blamed also. I don't see why you should put more blame on Jaime (who really didn't intend for a war) than on let's say Varys/LF who both purposely wanted the bloodshed to occur.

And also, Jaime did know a war might result from his actions, but he didn't know it would be on such a big scale. At most he only foresaw a war against Robert, not the entire kingdom thrown into chaos & kings popping out of nowhere.

The WO5K could have just been a WO2K if

• Renly did not step up to claim a throne that wasn't his. Could have allied with Stannis.
  
• Balon + Greyjoys didn't rebel - with all seriousness, I don't think they care whether the Iron king is legitimate, they just wanted an excuse to rebel.
  
• Robb didn't proclaim himself king, or alternatively he could have allied with Stannis (the lawful king).
  

And if Robb + Renly saw sense and moved to Stannis, then the war could have ended much quicker and with less bloodshed. Instead they decided to prolong it.

[TalalOfDorne]

Its mainly Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, LF, Lysa.

[David Selig]

Obviously the status quot of Westeros couldn't have remained the same for long.

Why is that obvious? The Targs maintained the status quo for almost 300 years.

[Sansa_Stark]

Why is that obvious? The Targs maintained the status quo for almost 300 years.

its just something people say to apologize for jaimes actions

[James March]

I'm a sustainer of the Actor-Network Theory (just google for the paper), so I don't believe that the entire war is Jamie's fault.

It is just the same as giving the entire responsibility of WW1 to the bosnian guy who assassinated the heir of the Austro-Hungarian throne.

[SkaggCannibal]

The war was above all a succession war. Jaime and Cersei are definetely to blame for the whole war. Other players like Littlefinger can be blamed to, but without the twincest to never would had something to plot over. So yeah it's Jaime's fault, even though he didn't intend it. That's not a good excuse.