binga Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 It certainly wasn't his fault alone but he committed an act or war by pushing Bran out that window and it inevitably led to the Stark versus Lannister part of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James March x2 Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Can't we just settle down this pointless discussion and agree that if there has been a war is because.... Rhaegar had a love story with Lyanna and did not end up King.. Aemon Targaryen did not give up NW vow to rule instead of his brother.. the WW 8000 years ago lost the war and did not erase to 0 the human population of westeros?Because reading here people who wants to bring down such a big thing like a war to the actions and choices to a single person is completely laughable!A piece of wood let to himself does not take fire and burn! If the other people didn't want this war, then no war would have been fought! You can't force anyone to fight back, never.At any point in time and space decisions could have been different if people believed in peaceful decision making, if people wanted to do their best to not trigger an escalation of events that lead to the war, or even stop the escalation of events. Some one remembers the Cuba Crisis? that is pretty much the same, yet people found the nerves of calming down the situation because both sides didn't want to raze down their own civilizations. Truth is all lords of Westeros are responsible, from the first to the last, and even those nice guys of the King's council and probably many people interested in Westero's politics evolution but living on the other side of the sea, like for example Illirio, great friend of Varyis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaggCannibal Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Can't we just settle down this pointless discussion and agree that if there has been a war is because.... Rhaegar had a love story with Lyanna and did not end up King.. Aemon Targaryen did not give up NW vow to rule instead of his brother.. the WW 8000 years ago lost the war and did not erase to 0 the human population of westeros?Because reading here people who wants to bring down such a big thing like a war to the actions and choices to a single person is completely laughable!A piece of wood let to himself does not take fire and burn! If the other people didn't want this war, then no war would have been fought! You can't force anyone to fight back, never.Truth is all lords of Westeros are responsible, from the first to the last, and even those nice guys of the King's council and probably many people interested in Westero's politics evolution but living on the other side of the sea, like for example Illirio, great friend of Varyis. Didn't anyone of these guys participate to the war decision making? Why no alliance of peaceful people and lords arose to freeze the situation when there was still plenty of time? Because many pushed for a war, many more prepared for a war even before a war was declared.. this is a typical escalation of events, yet people argue if it was the fault of a single person who didn't even better than he could in that moment. Of course you can blame everyone if you want and they all are partially to blame, but most of them didn't break any laws. The bulk of the blame definetely goes to Jaime and Cersei, because they are responsible for the one BIG reason for war. Just like the bulk of the blame for WW2 in Europe goes to .. Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 I'd say Jaime, Cersei and LF are about equally responsible, with Tywin slightly behind them in the guilty list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 I'd say Jaime, Cersei and LF are about equally responsible, with Tywin slightly behind them in the guilty list.Why Tywin? I mean I hate Tywin and think he's the epitome of evil in these books but how is it his fault?I would blame Jon Arryn and Robert before I blame Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Why Tywin? I mean I hate Tywin and think he's the epitome of evil in these books but how is it his fault?I would blame Jon Arryn and Robert before I blame Tywin.He sent the Mountain et al to kill off entire villages in the Riverlands. He never even considered diplomatic solutions to get Tyrion back. He absolutely played a role in the Stark/Lannister fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Why Tywin? I mean I hate Tywin and think he's the epitome of evil in these books but how is it his fault?I would blame Jon Arryn and Robert before I blame Tywin. He started the actual war. Both the Mountain raid and the first big army invasion were due to his orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 He sent the Mountain et al to kill off entire villages in the Riverlands. He never even considered diplomatic solutions to get Tyrion back. He absolutely played a role in the Stark/Lannister fight.Oh okay, Thanks. I was thinking in terms on how the seeds were sown so a war was bound to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 I agree that on the surface everything was calm under Robert, however Jaime and Cersei's incest was not the only cause of the war. From this section of text it is clear that the Stormlands and the Reach would have risen against Joffrey no matter what (ACOK, Chapter 31):So, Renly and the Tyrells didn't know about the incest before they raised their banners. Frankly, they didn't believe or care about the incest, they would have raised their banners anyway. This demonstrates that the incest was not the whole cause of the war and that the realm was united mostly by the power of Robert's personality. I think Renly saw and understood this and that is why he thought being charismatic was the most important quality of a king.Renly only wanted to be king because Ned didn't back his offer . He originally wanted Ned to be the protector and Joffrey as his ward so Cersei wouldn't murder the two of them.Really, it does come down to Cersei and Jaime being the worst people in Westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_Specter Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Cersei and Jaime are the two most responsible parties. I would guess Petyr is number 3. From there it is extremely debatable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_Specter Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 It's Jaime and Cercei. They don't commit incest. There is never a need for Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, etc to be suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Sure, I suppose you could blame Gavrilo Princip for causing WWI, but really it would have probably happened sooner or later anyway. SImilarly the WoT5K would have probably happened regardless of Jaime's actions. "anything long divided will surely unite, and anything long united will surely divide" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Sure, I suppose you could blame Gavrilo Princip for causing WWI, but really it would have probably happened sooner or later anyway. SImilarly the WoT5K would have probably happened regardless of Jaime's actions. "anything long divided will surely unite, and anything long united will surely divide" Except the realm was pretty intact save for Dorne and the Iron Islands. The two weakest regions in the entire realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catastrophe Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yes, the war is Jaime's fault. Not for pushing Bran (by then, it was probably too late to stop the war from happening), but for getting Cersei pregnant in the first place. Cersei's even more to blame, since if she'd just given birth to Robert's trueborn son and/or taken measures to prevent herself from getting pregnant with Jaime's children, she could've kept screwing her brother and no one would've given a damn. There's no reason to think that the War of the Five Kings was inevitable. Yes, there were a lot of people who deliberately tried to instigate the war, but the only reason they were able to do so was because Robert's supposed children were illegitimate. If Robert's heirs had been trueborn, manipulators like Littlefinger wouldn't have had the opportunity to tear the kingdom apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Lady cat LF and lsya ALL GUILTY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.o.d Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Cat, because she didn't let Brandon kill Littlefinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaxis Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Littlefinger. Just... Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alty732 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yes and no. No, if Jaime had not pushed Bran, a war still would have happend. Yes, because he and Cersei had kids together.To be fair it was not his intention for a Lannister to sit the throne, nor to start a war. His intention was to make sure Cersei did not have to carry Roberts children, and man who was cruel to her and abused her. Jaime did not know the full extent of the abuse, but he knew how much cersei loathed Robert and how disrespectful he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs_Darcy Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Jaime's responsibility goes back further than the window incident, it goes back to cuckolding Robert and fathering children by incest- if Joffrey was a true Baratheon, Ned and Stannis would never rebel against him! And of course there would have been no reason to push Bran out the window if there were no unnatural activities going on between Jaime and Cersei. I agree wholeheartedly. None of it would have happened, if Jaime had not cuckolded Robert and fathered bastards on the queen (which is high treason) Nevertheless, Cersei shares a big chunk of the blame herself, since she consented to sleeping with Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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