Cersei Lannister and the more beautiful queen.

[ftheking]

Like I said, I'm not fully convinced either way, but I disagree that there's no other interpretation possible other than yours.

 

Well, you are wrong.

[Darkstream]

Well, you are wrong.

Well, that brilliant argument certainly convinced me.

[Darkstream]

Well, you are wrong.

It's funny that your so adamant that I'm wrong when I've stated that I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

If your reasoning is so infallible, how come you haven't put forth a suitable alternative for the question I asked up thread?

[ftheking]

You are wrong in thinking that other interpretations are possible. It's a matter of fact.

 

What else could Maggy have said instead of "another", if she didn't mean another queen is your question?

 

1) he

2) she

3) the conquerer

4) the chosen one

5) your enemy

6) the maiden

7) the golden knight

8) the sparrow

9) the heir

10) anything at all

 

She could have described the person she saw in the future in any way that seemed fitting. What she did see and describe was a younger, more beautiful queen than future Cersei.

[Darkstream]

You are wrong in thinking that other interpretations are possible. It's a matter of fact.
 
What else could Maggy have said instead of "another", if she didn't mean another queen is your question?
 
1) he
2) she
3) the conquerer
4) the chosen one
5) your enemy
6) the maiden
7) the golden knight
8) the sparrow
9) the heir
10) anything at all
 
She could have described the person she saw in the future in any way that seemed fitting. What she did see and describe was a younger, more beautiful queen than future Cersei.

All of those are specific terms, and they don't fit in the sentence as an alternative to another.

[Darkstream]

Why didn't Maggy say "another queen"

[Darkstream]

You are wrong in thinking that other interpretations are possible. It's a matter of fact.

Well considering that besides this thread, I've seen several other threads with many people that don't agree with you. What makes your opinion a fact?

[ftheking]

Why didn't Maggy say "another queen"

 

Because "another" is enough. That's exactly what "another" means and how it is used. You're just trying to be willfully obtuse about the meaning of this word.

 

If she didn't want to say what she did, she wouldn't have had to use the same sentence. She would have put together another sentence, which would have expressed her meaning. DUDE Think for a minute what you are asking. "Is there even a way she could have said that exact same sentence just changing one word against a very similar kind of word and still carry a totally different meaning?"  :rolleyes:

 

She could have said anything she wanted to say, and she did say a younger more beautiful queen will mark the end of Cersei's queen-dom, in a very straightforward way that shouldn't confuse anyone who understands English.
 

 

What makes your opinion a fact?

Grammar and logic.

 

Honestly it was explained in this thread, You have no excuse for your ignorance any longer. There are many questions in this world that have a right and a wrong answer. This is not a matter of "Which Lannister brother is the better person?", this is a simple matter of fact.

[Darkstream]

Hey man, I didn't say That I disagree with you. I, as someone that admittedly doesnt fully grasp all the intricate rules of grammar, am just trying to understand this.

You said that there is no other way to interpret the sentence, which is obviously wrong, as I've seen countless people interpret it differently. Before ever seeing any debate on this, my understanding was as you are stating. The only reason I'm confused now is by listening to other people's interpretation. So you can assert that other interpretation are wrong, but not that there is no other interpretation.

I am not trying to be willfully obtuse, and apologize if my ignorance offends you. :cheers:

[YunoGasai]

well i always wondered why Daenerys and Sansa had some 'coincidence similarities'. i've already posted this on another forum but it got flooded. 

 

• Dany and Sansa came from a very ancient highborn lineage. (Targaryens; Starks)
• Both of them has a fetish for lemons. Sansa,lemoncakes. Dany, lemontrees.
• Both dreams to be back in their homes: (House with the Red Door and Winterfell)
• Both of them had been betrothed to 'product-of-incest' boys. (Joffrey and Viserys) 
• Both had been victims of abuse wether verbally or physically (again, Joffrey and Viserys)
• Both had managed to 'enamour' two older,bitter,ugly grown men who were supposed to be working for their betrothed. (Jorah Mormont and Sandor Clegane)
• Both had been unawarely used by both manipulative men (Varys and Littlefinger)
• Dany's beauty is a contrast to her Dothraki people and Sansa's beauty is uncommon (esp, red hair, kissed by fire) in Wildlings. Arya's grey eyes & brownhair is very common to Wildlings.
• Both had been said to be 'the most beautiful maid' Sansa in Westeros, Dany in Essos.
• Both had been snubbed by two people they both tried to seduce (Xaro-Xhoan Daxos and Harry the Heir).
• The only contrast between them is Dany's affinity with FIRE and Sansa's affinity with ICE.

​These things cannot be 'just coincidences' i suppose.

Sansa had already played a part in Cersei's downfall. Dany has not. Cersei holds everything dear to her is her money, beauty and power. She's getting older and Casterly Rock is Tyrion's and Sansa is Tyrion's wife. Sansa had worn the strangler in her hair in the puple wedding that had been a crucial part in Joffrey's death. Jaime had said that 'Sansa Stark is his last chance at honor' and Cersei loves Jaime. 

[purple-eyes]

well i always wondered why Daenerys and Sansa had some 'coincidence similarities'. i've already posted this on another forum but it got flooded. 
 

• Dany and Sansa came from a very ancient highborn lineage. (Targaryens; Starks)
• Both of them has a fetish for lemons. Sansa,lemoncakes. Dany, lemontrees.
• Both dreams to be back in their homes: (House with the Red Door and Winterfell)
• Both of them had been betrothed to 'product-of-incest' boys. (Joffrey and Viserys) 
• Both had been victims of abuse wether verbally or physically (again, Joffrey and Viserys)
• Both had managed to 'enamour' two older,bitter,ugly grown men who were supposed to be working for their betrothed. (Jorah Mormont and Sandor Clegane)
• Both had been unawarely used by both manipulative men (Varys and Littlefinger)
• Dany's beauty is a contrast to her Dothraki people and Sansa's beauty is uncommon (esp, red hair, kissed by fire) in Wildlings. Arya's grey eyes & brownhair is very common to Wildlings.
• Both had been said to be 'the most beautiful maid' Sansa in Westeros, Dany in Essos.
• Both had been snubbed by two people they both tried to seduce (Xaro-Xhoan Daxos and Harry the Heir).
• The only contrast between them is Dany's affinity with FIRE and Sansa's affinity with ICE.

​These things cannot be 'just coincidences' i suppose.
Sansa had already played a part in Cersei's downfall. Dany has not. Cersei holds everything dear to her is her money, beauty and power. She's getting older and Casterly Rock is Tyrion's and Sansa is Tyrion's wife. Sansa had worn the strangler in her hair in the puple wedding that had been a crucial part in Joffrey's death. Jaime had said that 'Sansa Stark is his last chance at honor' and Cersei loves Jaime.

Honestly these are not very similar.....
You can find similar things between magarey, arianne and dany too.
Basically major chactcters who are young high born girl all share many of these elements.
And sansa can not take jiame' love from cersei, which is one very important thing cersei held.

[YunoGasai]

Honestly these are not very similar.....
You can find similar things between magarey, arianne and dany too.
Basically major chactcters who are young high born girl all share many of these elements.
And sansa can not take jiame' love from cersei, which is one very important thing cersei held.

 

Please tell me why they are not similar and just coincidences.

Well Margeary and Arianne was never abused by their betrothed... 

Sansa doesn't have to take Jaime's love. Only his loyalty. That's why i always thought that Jaime is the valonqar...bec. Him and Cersei came out of this world with his one hand holding her foot. And ever since his hand was cut he and Cersei had been growing apart.

If Catelyn did not freed Jaime, his hand would not have been cut. Sansa has Catelyn's beauty and Brienne is sworn to Cat. Brienne is also technically sworn to Sansa now too.

[ftheking]

You said that there is no other way to interpret the sentence, which is obviously wrong, as I've seen countless people interpret it differently.

 

They are clearly misinterpreting the grammar of the sentence and usage of the word another. They are making a simple mistake and people such as yourself believe the wrong information. It doesn't make it valid.

 

Just as the person with the cookie example was confused because another (cookie) can mean an additional cookie of the exact same kind or a cookie of a different kind, faling to see that it still always means "another cookie", whether the word cookie is repeated or left out. The same way in this case we are talking about "another queen" obviously of a different kind, an additional one of the exact same kind would make little sense when talking about human beings. Some ways in which the other queen is different are even specified: younger and more beautiful.

 

---------enough about that

 

Personally I think Marg is a bit of a boring choice because that's what Cersei believes, but it's possible. Dany is very obvious, which means she might be a little boring too. Sansa would be exciting and it would be personal! I'd like to give an outsider chance to Brienne. I do think in her case the non literal interpretation of "more beautiful" would be okay, because she is "the Beauty" and she is the one who teaches Cersei's Jamie that inner beauty is more important than outer one. But it's a long shot.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Why didn't Maggy say "another queen"

For the same reason she didn't say "your little brother" or "your husband's little brother" or "your younger son" or "your husband's younger son" etc...

 

...the author doesn't want to give it all away at once.

 

 

well i always wondered why Daenerys and Sansa had some 'coincidence similarities'. i've already posted this on another forum but it got flooded. 

 

• Dany and Sansa came from a very ancient highborn lineage. (Targaryens; Starks)
• Both of them has a fetish for lemons. Sansa,lemoncakes. Dany, lemontrees.
• Both dreams to be back in their homes: (House with the Red Door and Winterfell)
• Both of them had been betrothed to 'product-of-incest' boys. (Joffrey and Viserys) 
• Both had been victims of abuse wether verbally or physically (again, Joffrey and Viserys)
• Both had managed to 'enamour' two older,bitter,ugly grown men who were supposed to be working for their betrothed. (Jorah Mormont and Sandor Clegane)
• Both had been unawarely used by both manipulative men (Varys and Littlefinger)
• Dany's beauty is a contrast to her Dothraki people and Sansa's beauty is uncommon (esp, red hair, kissed by fire) in Wildlings. Arya's grey eyes & brownhair is very common to Wildlings.
• Both had been said to be 'the most beautiful maid' Sansa in Westeros, Dany in Essos.
• Both had been snubbed by two people they both tried to seduce (Xaro-Xhoan Daxos and Harry the Heir).
• The only contrast between them is Dany's affinity with FIRE and Sansa's affinity with ICE.

​These things cannot be 'just coincidences' i suppose.

Sansa had already played a part in Cersei's downfall. Dany has not. Cersei holds everything dear to her is her money, beauty and power. She's getting older and Casterly Rock is Tyrion's and Sansa is Tyrion's wife. Sansa had worn the strangler in her hair in the puple wedding that had been a crucial part in Joffrey's death. Jaime had said that 'Sansa Stark is his last chance at honor' and Cersei loves Jaime. 

The "very ancient" quotient on the Targaryens is debateable.  The Starks have been around thousands of years longer, and were kings in Westeros while the Valyrians were herding sheep.  And while the Targs were dragonlords of the Freehold, they were not anywhere near the most powerful.  They only became top dogs when Aegon conquered Westeros, and that was only 300 years ago.

 

Dany was never betrothed to Viserys.  Which takes out part of your point about Jorah.

 

Varys didn't really get a chance to use Sansa.  Littlefinger did though.  He's a better choice.

 

What the wildlings find common or rare has no bearing on this, as Sansa is not anywhere near the Wildlings.  And while Sansa has been called the most beautiful maid in Westeros, it's a far cry from Dany who has been called the most beautiful woman in the whole world.

 

Dany did not try to seduce Xaro, and in the Alayne spoiler chapter [spoiler] Harry decides Alayne is clever and enticing and asks for forgiveness for his prior rudeness, so it looks like she's going to succeed where Harry is concerned. [/spoiler]

 

Sansa has not been explicitly tied to ice.  The only thing in her storyline that really speaks to ice is that she's a Stark from Winterfell.  In her personal story arc there is no ice.  Dany on the other hand has had fire surrounding her from the start.  There's a lot about her and heat and she hatches dragons in a giant bonfire essentially.  Dragons are "fire made flesh."

 

Again this goes back to everything she hold dear at which point?  Sansa did play a role in Joffrey's death but is not likely to play a role in Tommen or Myrcella's deaths unless she marries Aegon, but since she can't really do that until Cersei has lost power, it won't happen until T and M are already dead.  Cersei will cling to power as long as she can, and all of her power at this point derives from her children's tenuous claims to the Iron Throne.  Sansa can't get her marriage to Tyrion annulled without revealing where she is, and she can't do that until Cersei is no longer a threat.  That leaves Sansa out of the equation on two of the things/people Cersei holds dear from the beginning.  

 

This doesn't mean Sansa can't be the YMBQ though.  It just means that if she is, then the definition of what Cersei holds dear will be what she holds dear at the time that the YMBQ comes to power and/or casts her down; as opposed to everything she has ever held dear.

[Kasporio]

How bigoted all of you are. You never considered the beautiful queen or whoever could a transgender or hermaprhrodite. It's likely Sweet. She's hot, smart and have a wiener. Everything Cersei always wanted to be since she's a kid.

[Chocs]

It seems to be Dany, but I'm leaning towards Sansa more.

[bent branch]

 

They are clearly misinterpreting the grammar of the sentence and usage of the word another. They are making a simple mistake and people such as yourself believe the wrong information. It doesn't make it valid.

 

Just as the person with the cookie example was confused because another (cookie) can mean an additional cookie of the exact same kind or a cookie of a different kind, faling to see that it still always means "another cookie", whether the word cookie is repeated or left out. The same way in this case we are talking about "another queen" obviously of a different kind, an additional one of the exact same kind would make little sense when talking about human beings. Some ways in which the other queen is different are even specified: younger and more beautiful.

 

---------enough about that

 

Personally I think Marg is a bit of a boring choice because that's what Cersei believes, but it's possible. Dany is very obvious, which means she might be a little boring too. Sansa would be exciting and it would be personal! I'd like to give an outsider chance to Brienne. I do think in her case the non literal interpretation of "more beautiful" would be okay, because she is "the Beauty" and she is the one who teaches Cersei's Jamie that inner beauty is more important than outer one. But it's a long shot.

 

No, you are the one confused. The cookie example shows that another can mean another one of the same type or of a different type. Of course, they are both still cookies. The question here is does this use of another mean another queen or just another person. It most certainly doesn't mean a snark or a grumkin.

 

Here is another way of demonstrating why "another" in this instance doesn't necessarily mean another queen.

 

Sally refused Frank's proposal of marriage, because she loves another.

 

You can assume that Sally is in love with another man, but Sally may be in love with another woman. She is, however, most probably in love with another person.

 

Whether you realize it or not, this sentence is quite ambiguous and the younger, more beautiful person may not end up being a queen.

[Chocs]

Why didn't Maggy say "another queen"

I agree with this; it's very ambiguous.

[lidsa]

I'm leaning towards Arya, too.  

First off she has Cersei on her list, so that's a direct threat.  

Secondly nobody would really peg Arya for "more beautiful" because she always thinks about how Jeyne and Sansa called her ugly and Arya thinks that's true, even though she's actually beautiful.

    

Also Arya has the 'Queen' foreshadowing.

 

 

• Dany's beauty is a contrast to her Dothraki people and Sansa's beauty is uncommon (esp, red hair, kissed by fire) in Wildlings. Arya's grey eyes & brownhair is very common to Wildlings.

Sansa isn't "kissed by fire", Sansa has Tully auburn hair, described as a reddish brown, so she's more of a brunette than she is a redhead (the description coming directly from Catelyn, who has the same hair and thus knows what it looks like).  

Stark eyes and faces - which Sansa doesn't have - are uncommon in the Wildlings, which is why they recognise Starks even when they've only ever heard of them.

 

Besides that, red hair is not special for the Wildlings. They consider it a lucky haircolour, but I don't remember reading anywhere that red hair is especially rare within wildlings.

 

[ftheking]

I actually had the impression red hair is far more common among widlings than anywhere else, comparable maybe to Irland in our world our time. To make a big deal about red hair some people need to have it. And we have two important wildling characters and at least another character mentioned with red hair, right?

 

 

No, you are the one confused. The cookie example shows that another can mean another one of the same type or of a different type. Of course, they are both still cookies. The question here is does this use of another mean another queen or just another person. It most certainly doesn't mean a snark or a grumkin.

 

Here is another way of demonstrating why "another" in this instance doesn't necessarily mean another queen.

 

Sally refused Frank's proposal of marriage, because she loves another.

 

You can assume that Sally is in love with another man, but Sally may be in love with another woman. She is, however, most probably in love with another person.

 

Whether you realize it or not, this sentence is quite ambiguous and the younger, more beautiful person may not end up being a queen.

 I'm not confused in the slightest. I understand the sentence perfectly.

 

You were bringing the cookie example? Because it explained quite well how Maggy clearly refers to another queen.

 

"Loved another" is a better try, because very unlike the cookie or queen examples the word "another" doesn't directly decribe a noun used in the first part of the sentence. Instead it directly negates it. Another here means "somebody else than Frank" (gender is about as irrelevant as race or religion to the meaning of this sentence, only thing known is it isn't Frank, which is made completely unambiguously clear.). Obviously that doesn't work for Maggy's sentence. "Queen you will be... then somebody else than you comes" Huh? Cercsei can't very well be marching into her own life at some point, while Sally could have loved Frank. Most people meet other people who are not themselves on a daily basis. It's a ludicrous interpretation. "Another" has no possible meaning in this sentence without the noun it refers to, queen. 

 

How long will the chocolate chip cookie hating kid ask his grandma if he may have "another", desperately hoping for ice cream, which is also something else than a chocolate chip cookie, until he realises the word "another" doesn't work that way and context matters?